Any advice for a soon to be acting power of attorney (POA)?

[angie_nrs]

I'll preface this post by saying hubby is listed as POA for his mom. She is on her death bed. We assisted in her 'end of life' paperwork many years ago, so I think most things are taken care of. However, there is a family member living with her now and is taking care of her and has for a few years now. Of coarse, his duties have gotten more intense over the last several months. The cremation has been prepaid and hospice is coming in. At this point, she is coherent but very weak. I believe she could sign her name, but doubt she could hold a solid conversation on the phone.

Basically, I don't know what I don't know. I've never been in the situation of being POA of someone who has passed. The POA is hubby, not me.....but he'll be seeking my assistance b/c paperowrk isn't his forte'. In essence, it'll fall on me. When the deed was done, the beneficiary paperwork on all her accounts were all supposed to be updated by her and she said she took care of it. Her checkbook has hubbys name on it as well, so paying bills such as tax returns, last utility bills, cable, etc. can be paid off in full when she passes. I told him to keep the checking account open until after taxes have been done next year and all other accounts have been liquidated.

I asked hubby to consult with his aunt (mom's sister) to see if she can write the obituary, if it's not already done. I guess hubby should call the funeral home (that has been paid for the cremation) and inquire what needs to be done? There will be NO service, although there may be a get together at brothers house. Her house has a ladybird deed that is already put in the name of the person staying with her now. We have told him many times (and again recently) to get the utilities and everything put in his name before she passes. The more that can be accomplished now, the less we will have to get involved. He said everything has been switched over. We have the POA, medical POA, life insuance policy, funeral pre-pay receipts, Will, etc. all in an envelope on the counter. We will ask for 5 copies of the death certificate from the funeral home when the time comes to present to social security, the bank, the county for the deed, etc.

What other paperwork should we be considering? Is there anything we are missing here? Hubby and I don't want anything from her estate. There's not much there anyways. I do not anticipate any in-fighting over anything within the family. We are hoping this will all be easy peasy......but I know things don't generally go that way. Any advice?

 

[Bacpacker]

Id ask for 10 to 20 copies of the death certificate. My BIL lost his dad last year and was shocked how many was needed.

 

[jazzy]

most important thing id do is document every step, every decision made in her name to make sure all the t are crossed and i dotted and make copies of everything. this is a sad stage of life but you honor her by caring for tings she cant.

sometimes the stress after the passing of a family member and dealing with estate can cause some people to start questioning decisions made. it is good to detail everything and keep records.

very sorry you all are dealing with this, it is difficult and sad.

 

[Supervisor42]

Id ask for 10 to 20 copies of the death certificate. My BIL lost his dad last year and was shocked how many was needed.

I agree. At least 8 as a minimum.

 

[Haertig]

Most important thing that you should realize, and I've mentioned this in a different thread ...

PoA gives you NO POWERS after death. Repeat: PoA doesn't let you do anything on the deceased behalf once they have passed.

Having your name on a checking account owned by the deceased does not guaranty you anything either. If it is the deceased account, and you are only an allowed signer, then the bank can and probably will freeze the account upon learning of the account owners death. A true "joint account" is different. As is an account "owned by a trust" where "you are a full trustee" along with the newly deceased. "Signer on an account" does not give you any control over that account.

My advice would be: IF you are going to need money from the deceased's accounts to pay for funeral expenses and other immediate payments due, get that money that you need out of the deceased accounts and into an account that you control BEFORE they die. You can use your PoA to do this so long as you do it before they die. Warning: This may raise questions that you are trying to steal money by abusing your PoA. However, if you aren't really stealing the money for your own use then you will be able to answer any questions raised. For example, if you suddenly write and sign a check to yourself for $20,000 from the owners account using your PoA, their bank probably will - and should - question that. Be prepared to answer those questions by detailing that you will need immediate access to this cash for funeral expenses - be specific and truthful - and that the account owner has expressed wishes for you to use their money in this manner. Chances are that you will get the money moved to where you can access it before any questions are raised, so explanations (if any are required) will all be after the fact. The day before my mom's death, I moved a half million dollars from her personally owned investments into a trust checking account where both her and I were full trustees. (Yeah, I waited a little long to get that done, but I didn't need the money so it was not critical in my case.) This didn't raise any questions - probably because the destination was a trust account with both of us (me and mom) already as full trustees. I imagine if I had moved that money to my personal checking account, that might have raised a few eyebrows. Anyway, it's easier to ask forgiveness than to get advance permission. Unless you are actually trying to steal money or do something else that is illegal, any eyebrows that are raised can be smoothed back down.

AFTER death, PoA is useless and what you will need for control of the money is to be the deceased's "Executor" also known as their "Personal Representative". This is usually designated in their will. However, to use this Executorship, you will probably have to go to court and get something called a "Letter of Testament". This is what banks and such are going to want for you to come in and start dealing with the deceased money after they have died. This letter from the court is saying that yes, they have looked at the will, and you are truly the designated executor.

This is where a Trust comes in handy. If you have that set up, and you are a Full Trustee or a Successor Trustee, then you don't have to deal with the courts and Executorship and things like that. You have immediate control over the deceased money because you "own" that money just as much as they do. However, if you don't already have a Trust set up, it is too late in your case. You don't go setting up Trust paperwork with a lawyer from somebodies deathbed. It is done in advance, when the person is still alive and mentally competent.

Note that with properly created wills and such, you will eventually get access to money from the deceased's accounts. The emphasis here is "eventually". It may and probably will require court procedings (i.e., "probate"). If you need the money now, to pay for a funeral, casket, etc., then having to wait 6 to 9 months or even longer for "eventually" to roll around, you can be screwed. You'll have to pay things out of your own pocket and then get reimbursed later. Fine if you have that money available in your personal accounts, not so fine if you yourself are strapped for cash.

My heart goes out to your family as you go through this. It's not fun. But you're doing the right things in asking what is ahead before you have already experienced the death. Things are usually easier done before death.

[edit] p.s. - If the death slips up on you, you can try to move any money necessary before notifying the bank of the owners death. Do notify them, but do so after you have moved the money you need. Then claim that you didn't know any better. Again, better to ask forgiveness than permission. [/edit]

 

[old tex]

Just remember that all the stuff your doing under the POA ends when she dies. I've got one on my SF but I can't do anything once he is gone. That's going to fall on his next of kin, sister who is older than him. If she goes first, I have no idea who will do things.

 

[Patchouli]

This is very stressful and I pray you’ll all have courage and comfort as you wade thru it all.
In our situation I thought I’d need many death certificates but I still have several. Only used 4 out of 10 I think. Laws may be different in other states so be aware of that. Some of the things that have been mentioned were easy for me to deal with, no problems.
Be aware of who is supposed to do what when she passes if she is at home. Laws vary.
Stop all credit cards now.
For anyone who is reading this and wonders about the bank account they share with a spouse, that was, I knew, in both mine and his names…When I asked for copies of statements from a particular time period for records and reference, the bank refused. They said I wasn’t primary.

 

[Jim Costa]

Old Tex and Haertig are right. It all ends upon death.

However, you can transfer real estate unless the POA prohibits that (doubtful).

You can prepay funeral and other expenses.

You may be able to withdraw Bank funds and invest in precious metals to be delivered to her estate, protecting from bank failures. (banks have grown particular and sometimes balk at a POA if their bank is not mentioned.)

If death is near, you can rent a warehouse and pay to have certain expensive items locked up there to protect them.

You can install an security alarm on home if it will be vacant a few months until assets are divided.

You can even enter a contract on behalf of the person,

But remember, once the person passes, the executor of her will takes charge.

Hint: If the house goes to "Bessie Jean" per the will, you can deed it to Bessie Jean to avoid Probate.
Because of Covid, the Probate courts are back logged a lot.
If you do this I would keep everyone happy (You and the soon to be Executor).

In fact, suggest you talk with the Executor for this kink of advice that would help him.

If you move the real estate, most families can possibly avoid probate entirely.
Check it out and continue to pre-plan.

P.S. Be sure to explain to her Executor not to pay any of her bills unless she had a judgement filed against her.
If so, make sure it has not expired. The Judgments expire after a few years.
Most of her debts go to alphabet heaven upon death.

 

[LadyLocust]

@angie_nrs verify what kind of POA it is - all, financial only, health only, etc. Make sure there are no limitations & if there are find out who is in charge of that area. Then does she have a lawyer or do you?
l think there is quite a bit of info already offered here.

 

[Amish Heart]

Mom just passed April 10th...I was POA med and sis was executor and POA $$. We prepaid mom's name stone and the cemetary site. We were told from her bank (checking acct) that it would be closed the day of her death, even tho I was a signer on the acct. But at the credit union, my sis was a co owner, not just a co signer on the acct, so that's the acct we used to pay for funeral expenses. We requested 5 copies of a death certificate, and only used 3. They took 4 weeks to get. When I received them, I had to go to the checking acct bank and they immediately shut down the acct and issued three checks to the three beneficiaries. One was mine. We had to send copies of these to Medicare and secondary insurance, her retirement from where she worked a long time ago, and to Teamsters that she was collecting from her late husband. Basically anything that brought her income. We didn't need a lawyer and things went quickly because she did not own any property. We left a credit union acct open with some $$ in case she owes any taxes for this year. Then it can be paid from that. The leftover can be dispersed for us three daughters. Found out we can't do her taxes early. I doubt that she owes, but H and R Block will need to be paid for doing them. Funerals add up quick. Mom was cremated, but all the other costs to that, cemetary, marble urn, rental of the building, just stuff...and the stone..came to about $7K.

 

[d_marsh]

I am not the one to ask about any one of this, but my lawyer set up some kind of family trust and then named my pops and the lady the state thinks is my "wife" because I didn't call the cops on her when she refused to leave. I don't have a will and everything I own is supposedly part of the trust. If I kick it, then the other trust people just do with the trust stuff as they see fit. Again, its possible that woman is just running a long con on me and I will end up homeless and penniless once I start earning.

 

[Haertig]

and the lady the state thinks is my "wife" because I didn't call the cops on her when she refused to leave

I understand that about as well as I understood the initial comments about turtles in that other thread. My poor brain is not grasping what you are saying here.

But despite my not understanding this sentence, things don't just "go into your trust" automatically. You have to put them there. If you want your house to be in the trust, you have to title it to the trust. If you want a savings account to be owned by the trust, you have to create a new account - owned by the trust - and then move all the funds from the original (non-trust) account into the new trust account. At least that's the way you have to do it in Colorado. Other states may allow you to "re-title" an account into a trust's name for all I know. I will tell you that when you walk into a bank and say "I want to create a trust account", often times the bankers eyes will get real big, they will spook, and tell you that you need to talk to one of their senior bankers. I have no idea what causes this phenomenon.

We do have a clause in our trust that says that any new possessions we acquire after the trust was created are to be owned by the trust. That sounds sketchy to me, but I guess that's the only way you can do it for items that don't have specific paperwork showing who owns them. e.g., you buy a new TV and that does not show up, formally, as being owned by you as the purchaser. Compare that to a bank account that does have a specific owner on record (and probably beneficiaries). All accounts SHOULD have beneficiaries, even if they are owned by a trust. One reason is for FDIC (or NCUA) insurance. FDIC/NCUA insures accounts for $250,000. But if you add a POD ("Payable On Death") beneficiary, the account is insured for $500,000. Two beneficiaries, $750,000. But I believe it stops at that point. You cannot get unlimited insurance by adding an unlimited number of beneficiaries. I don't keep too many accounts above the FDIC insurance limit, but it's nice to know how to protect the ones I do. I would still have beneficiaries anyway, even if there were no FDIC/NCUA insurance ramifications.

 

[d_marsh]

I understand that about as well as I understood the initial comments about turtles in that other thread. My poor brain is not grasping what you are saying here.

But despite my not understanding this sentence, things don't just "go into your trust" automatically. You have to put them there. If you want your house to be in the trust, you have to title it to the trust. If you want a savings account to be owned by the trust, you have to create a new account - owned by the trust - and then move all the funds from the original (non-trust) account into the new trust account. At least that's the way you have to do it in Colorado. Other states may allow you to "re-title" an account into a trust's name for all I know. I will tell you that when you walk into a bank and say "I want to create a trust account", often times the bankers eyes will get real big, they will spook, and tell you that you need to talk to one of their senior bankers. I have no idea what causes this phenomenon.

We do have a clause in our trust that says that any new possessions we acquire after the trust was created are to be owned by the trust. That sounds sketchy to me, but I guess that's the only way you can do it for items that don't have specific paperwork showing who owns them. e.g., you buy a new TV and that does not show up, formally, as being owned by you as the purchaser. Compare that to a bank account that does have a specific owner on record (and probably beneficiaries). All accounts SHOULD have beneficiaries, even if they are owned by a trust. One reason is for FDIC (or NCUA) insurance. FDIC/NCUA insures accounts for $250,000. But if you add a POD ("Payable On Death") beneficiary, the account is insured for $500,000. Two beneficiaries, $750,000. But I believe it stops at that point. You cannot get unlimited insurance by adding an unlimited number of beneficiaries. I don't keep too many accounts above the FDIC insurance limit, but it's nice to know how to protect the ones I do. I would still have beneficiaries anyway, even if there were no FDIC/NCUA insurance ramifications.

She came over and she never left. Apparently that means common law applies. So be careful, you could end up "married" to some random burglar or squatter if they stay long enough. Always dial 911 or have good shovel handy. A shovel which you could put in the trust. But that's the lawyers job. I will be dead or missing so I am not overly concerned about the technical stuff. Plus the lawyer's kids go to expensive colleges so he needs my money.

 

[Bacpacker]

AngieNrs. I'm sorry i posted so short. My prayers are with you and your hubs, and your MIL. These are hard times for you guys.
I was gonna mention Heartig may have some input having just went thru that. Glad he posted the info he had. I'm sure your state laws are different, but still some good info/advice.

 

[angie_nrs]

I should have been more clear. Hubby is listed as POA & also as her estate representative in her will. I conflated the two in my OP I guess b/c I knew he was both.

She didn't need a Trust as she doesn't have many assets. The LadyBird Deed was sufficient to pass along her home and property. The rest of her paper assets have beneficiaries listed so those will be disbursed when they receive the death certificate.

I asked my mom how many death certificates she needed when my dad passed and she said she ordered 10 but only used 3. I guess I will have hubby order 10 just to be on the safe side since I'm sure it's much easier to do it all at once.

Her cremation has already been paid for and she wants her urn to remain in the home. Initially she said she wanted her ashes spread out in the back property but just recently changed her mind. OK, kinda weird, but.......

I went through the paperwork and it looks like hubby was taken off the checking account upon the lawyers suggestion, I believe for the MC lookback period? I'm not sure now exactly why that was done, but it was. So, everything will be distributed when they get the death certificates. I guess we'll just pay for her taxes to be done. If she gets a refund, then I'm not sure how we'll handle that? Hopefully hubby can sign the check? I don't know. If she has to pay, we'll just pay it.

Thanks to all for the kind words and advise I can use at this point. It's a stressful time but I'm praying that the Lord take her home peacefully and without suffering. She is ready to go.....

 

[Haertig]

If she gets a refund, then I'm not sure how we'll handle that? Hopefully hubby can sign the check?

Yes. He will just sign it as "<his signature>, P.R." But it's easier to just have the refund direct deposited into an account you control. You specify that when you file the taxes. You also indicate that the tax return is for a deceased person. That shows up at the top of the first page of the 1040 form. If you use TurboTax or similar tax prep software, it will ask you if the taxpayer is deceased and it will put the proper notification at the top of form 1040.

 

[bkt]

I was POA for my mom and handled her bills, taxes, taking care of her home - and getting it sold - while she was in a nursing home. Once she passed, my brother became the Executor of her estate and I had no authority over anything for mom. My brother handled her will, paying off any lingering bills, and property and cash disbursements per the will.

 

[forcast]

Her last social security check may need to be repaid to social security. If she didnt live every day the month of her dealth. My mom died on the 29th of the month. Her ss check comes in the 3rd of each month. By that time her ss check had already been spent on her basic bills. It was hard for me to come up with the money .

 

[Jim Costa]

Angi_nrs - In light of your second post:, I suggest he consider:

1) Transfer the real estate NOW prior to death. All that is needed is a Deed.
It can be drawn up by an attorney or someone in the real estate world. Cheap and simple.

You can sign the Deed and notarize it today and just hold it until after death, if you wish.
Your POA was used PRIOR to death. Then after death record it.

Reasons: More than likely, that is the bulk of financial value in her estate.
You might then escape a year delay in Probate.
Allows the receiving party to act quickly during this turbulent time.

2. Then look at ways to remove the bulk of cash from the bank.
This may even require the cooperation of a current alternate check signer.
But this is now more easily done now that hubby is POA and the Executor.
Just explain that the purpose is to bypass the long and expensive route of Probate.

3. That leaves the car. Most states will allow the death certificate and Will to transfer the title.
Or it can be done now with the POA.

I assume she has no investments.

In my working life I was a CPA and Paralegal. I have freely assisted others in avoiding probate in this manner when the time is near.

If you wish, send me a copy of her deed (from the court house if needed). I will then complete the deed and return both to you.
But first you need a copy of her deed as to name recorded on it and the legal description. From there you can get anyone to complete the Deed for you.

Best of luck to you.

P.S. Ignore the Exponential graph below. I am working on another project and It somehow got posted here. I can't undue it.

 

[angie_nrs]

Angi_nrs - In light of your second post:, I suggest he consider:

1) Transfer the real estate NOW prior to death. All that is needed is a Deed.

As stated, there is already a LadyBird Deed in place. So, that's already taken care of.

You might then escape a year delay in Probate.

If all her assets have already been told where to go via LB deed and beneficiaries on accounts, there will be no probate. In fact, I hope we don't even have to use the will, aside from the appointment of the executor.

2. Then look at ways to remove the bulk of cash from the bank.

The bank accounts have beneficiaries listed. It's my understanding that when the bank gets her death certificate, they will disburse the money accouring to her beneficiary list. She did already make a withdrawl for unexpected expenses to be paid.

3. That leaves the car.

The car has already been transferred out of her name.

I assume she has no investments.

She does have some minor IRA investments and a small life insurance policy. All of them have beneficiary's listed.

If you wish, send me a copy of her deed (from the court house if needed).

Thanks for that, but I think we're good.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks for that as well. I'm hoping all goes smoothly, but I'd never turn down good luck.

 

[rice paddy daddy]

I was moms power of attorney, executor of the estate, had medical POA, everything done by her and her lawyer years before her death at age 91.
She also had a “do not resuscitate “ authorization with my name on it.

The best advice I can give is get all this paperwork NOW, even if you have to pay a lawyer a few hundred bucks.
And then keep it all handy at a moment’s notice. If she is rushed to the hospital, take it all with you. I kept everything in its own briefcase, and when she was admitted for the last time, and comatose, that paperwork in my hand kept the doctors from hooking her up to all sorts of machines.

You mentioned you might not need a will.
Having been there, believe me you do not know how greedy and nasty some of your relatives really are.
Trust me on this.

 

[Grimm]

Id ask for 10 to 20 copies of the death certificate. My BIL lost his dad last year and was shocked how many was needed.

Not to mention there are family members who may want one. When my FIL passed we asked FIL's wife for a death certificate. Our only reason for wanting one was to have proof he had passed when his debtors came calling. (K's family is not money literate at all! I could tell stories for days about this). Wish we had one for K's mom but that was before my time.

 

[angie_nrs]

You mentioned you might not need a will.

While we might not need it, we do have it. I read through it and it's all still current.

There's not much to fight over. I think any fight would be more than what it's worth and nobody listed in the Will are drama queens/kings. If anyone in the family wanted something specific, I don't think anyone would mind them having it. Niether hubby or myself can think of anything we would want. The home will remain being occupied, but owned by the caregiver that is there now. That's what she wanted and nobody has a problem with it. Hubby and I made the appt. with our lawyer years ago for her to set that up, so it has been common knowledge to everyone involved. As far as I'm concerned, he deserves it.

I think that it's important that everyone knows whats going to happen afterwards. I've read horror stories of people who had a secret Will that caused all kinds of drama after death. Thankfully we are not dealing with that type of situation. Also, with hospice involved, I'm hopeful that things will go smoothly. It's the weeks and months afterward I'm trying to plan for (anticipate) now.