Anyone had group of 100+ for more than 10 years?

[wheresclair]

I think that in the USA you have many freedom and resource we in the EU do not have access to. 12 years ago our group of about 40 started work on a sinkhole (spelling?) that we have on one of our properties. It is almost 21 m deep and almost as wide. Concrete has gotten expensive but we are the nearly complete. We are proud of our work and the friendship we have created with this team effort. Even though we are the very close as friends, we have a big problem with leadership. It seems like everyone wants to be the one to make the decision! If we have a bio problem much worst than the covid-19 and we are all living together, I think we would have the big problem with who is in charge. My question to you - are there groups bigger that mines - say 100 or more that have made it as long as we have? I feel the need to create a better structure so we do not kill ourselfs if we had to be under for months or more time!

 

[Amish Heart]

Is this a 68 foot deep basement? A 21 m deep sinkhole?
Never had a group of 100 people. I'd think you'd need to set alot of rules down.

 

[Dave V]

I will 2nd that Amish Heart, but the most important thing is frequent communication.

Well, darn you wheresclair, you're making me go from a lurker to registered...I hate registering for anything. I gotta ask more about your sinkhole (yes, spelled correctly, your English is very good!) Although, please don't tell me anything that would help someone locate it by drone or from satellite/Google Earth. I am most interested in how you handled the scaffolding and forms for such a deep structure? And how are you handling the storm drainage and sewage and gray water you will produce??

FYI, our group organized in 1989 with 3 members. 31 years later, membership is around 120 with a capacity of about 340 for a 5 year "cruise." So yeah, it can be done. We grew slowly and chose members and their families very carefully. We scale with pre-calculated supplies for each member. Leadership and member stewardship is critical. We develop SOPs for everything and thoroughly discuss everything. Teams meet weekly and everyone monthly. We run a "Summer Camp" every year and one weekend a year is a full scale exercise. We do have an advantage you don't (not because we're in the US.) Our facility has a level adjacent to the (food) storage basement of the grocery store we own and run. (My day job!) So logistically, we have a huge issue taken off our plates. We use LP gas powered forklifts to keep our food stores rotated on pallets every three months. Customers don't notice a little less time on their canned food's expiration dates, but it keeps us from having massive spoilage after a few years! In case of the "big one," the basement stairs are collapsible and the freight elevator is locked on the bottom floor which gives us unfettered access to move the entire contents of the basement into our secondary storage areas. But about you...tell me how you built without a serious accident?!

 

[wheresclair]

I am most interested in how you handled the scaffolding and forms for such a deep structure? And how are you handling the storm drainage and sewage and gray water you will produce??

But about you...tell me how you built without a serious accident?!

That is AMAZING!
When can I come to visit you? Seriousness, after Covid, may I come see how you have set up this location?

To answer your questions I can say we made many mistakes and had a few injuries, but we have many very good engineers in our group and they made it all to work well. We used the pump to fill our forms and we have many of the water pumps that turn on automatic if wet. One problem is the solar. We can not have enough of the electricity for much light and other things if it rains much because pumps use very much of the electricity.
Sewage is OK we have big tank. Grey water we pump out but we would like someday to recycle.

 

[Amish Heart]

What are you putting in the sinkhole?

 

[TexasFreedom]

Small groups can be a collection of 'leaders'. But when you get to 100 people, there has to be a structure, leaders/managers/workers. 100 cooks in one kitchen will make a mess.

 

[wheresclair]

We have built a many level bunker for about 50 people. The stairs are a lot ! We can not have the elevator because the electricity is not very much yet but that is a project we are working on.

 

[wheresclair]

I will be back! I must get up for work now because I must make money to pay for my expensive hobby.

 

[jontte]

that my friends are some seriously big groups and thus there must be good leaders or a leader,
would imagine all those biker boys and cartells are "successful" 'cause there is a command structure, you
can't run a big group in a disaster scenario like an early communist red guard in the Sovjet revolution, where a leader was "elected" in a shouting election..

I truly 2nd the importance of communication!

 

[BillMasen]

Wow 100 people, I'm assuming many are neighbours affected by the sink holes rather than all preppers but its a lot non the less, well done. Historically I think that the now defunct or broken up Rocky Mountain Survival Group had a few hundred members, but spread far and wide.

The issue at hand is that many preppers live remotely and as OPSEC and PERSEC do not want to interact with others.

The Kansas super bunker has about 60 residents I think but they dont all live their permenantly, same as the Xpoint in south Dakota .

There is of course the Mormon communities of hamlets, villages and towns in Utah where 90% of the cities are members of the LDS (CLS) and as part of their faith each household keeps at least a years supply of foods and materials, these people cooperate fully in large numbers.

An indepth review of current mormon prepping is discussed in one chapter in the newly published book BUNKER by Bradley Garrett.

 

[lonewolf]

I dont think I have known 100 people in total my whole life.
that kind of group size in post SHTF is far too big I can see problems arising with so large a group.

 

[user 7368]

Groups have an advantage, that's the way it is, but many groups fail because either everyone wants to be the boss, or the normal people in the group don't agree with the boss's decision. The biggest problem is always when in a crisis where really bad conditions arise, a dispute breaks out in the group or a renegade with important material makes the dust, if one of the two scenarios happens and the group is broken up, then you are unlucky Cannon fodder because you don't have any more.
Life as a lone fighter also has its risks that cannot always be resolved quickly, but you have prepared yourself for yourself and the big problem with being unable to act due to a group crash does not exist, but the problem if you crash somewhere, for example.
In my region there are certainly preppers, but most of them remain loners, there is no major movement here, you have to rely on the fact that you will find people in the ultimate crisis who are going the same way.
But the current time with Corona has one advantage, the people who are now expressing themselves publicly against the sometimes nonsensical state measures, these people are for the most part prepared for something, which is why it is good to get to know one or the other of them somewhere .
Everyone has their goals, they are not always the same, and not everyone is made a leader, because people also need people for the normal job, the worst is a leader who does not have it under control and who is lacking in people and knowing people is missing. If you are the leader of a prepper group then your job will be partly different from being a leader in the army, because you have a limited number of people and partly a limited number of materials, and you should be concerned about both because these people should be a team and not for the forced role of a normal soldier who has the superior's gun in his back.

 

[lonewolf]

A large group will always have problems with accessing resources, the larger the group the more acute the problem.
being a loner or LW+1 the same problem dosent apply, only ourselves to worry about.

 

[Mountain Dragon]

Wow... an group with 100 people? Would be to much for me. Our group is approximatly 10 people and i think it's almost enough. The line of communications is short, we know each other since over 10 or 15 years and i'm trust in everyone. If your group is to large you'll more in the situation of false informations and you're having the higher risk of traitors. But if it works with the whole village then you're an lucky one. For myself, i stay with my small, easy going and easy hiding group.

 

[BillMasen]

Only 8 in our group these days all related so its more like a large family group based to two rural locations.

 

[Amish Heart]

There is a large group that works in the fictional stories in the Stonemont Series by Steven Smith. That many people were necessary for security while the others did the daily normal stuff, like grow food. So, it's been done in prepper fiction. We just put in a 25 ft squared under a room basement. Not sure I would want to load a bunch of people in there. All the houses around us already have a basement under the house, and our original one is larger than the new one.
What did you guys build on top of the sinkhole? is it a house, or is it just covered with dirt?

 

[lonewolf]

I dont plan my survival on fiction.

 

[Dave V]

WC,
Yeah, your group of 40 could be hard to manage depending on each person’s rational to be in the group. While you were building your facility, the intense difficulties probably gave your group strong incentive to problem solve and work together, but now without as much focus, you may need to reorganize. Reorganization after the fact may be really hard as people are set in their perceived roles and may resist change. You may lose a few in the process.

 

[Dave V]

If nothing bad ever happens, and life goes on like normal, you may have SS and Medicare to help make ends meet in your old age. Regardless whether Democrats or Republicans are in power, most of the things important to you and your family will remain intact after any political shift.

If SHTF, it could be a meteor or Yellowstone could erupt, but more likely it will be a pandemic or Russia nuking us – we’ve already had a minor taste of it with Covid-19, but nothing that sent us headed for the hills on a long term basis. When it REALLY happens, the government and constitution along with common decency will go out the window…maybe to return someday, but maybe not. We all know that our communities are not going to run as mini constitutional democratic republics. There will be rules and consequences and if you haven’t already thought this all through, your community is likely to quickly self destruct…whether it’s the bleeding heart liberals that lull you into giving them more power in the guise of democracy or some authoritarian too-far-right-winger who thinks he can run things better and takes you and anyone who opposes him out permanently!
PLANNING GOVERNANCE is NOT an optional consideration!

There are so many in between scenarios possible, but for sure, peace of mind is expensive!
If you do the minimum to prep and SHTF, you’ll lament that you didn’t better prepare, but if you blow all your cash and free time on being prepared, have you enjoyed your life to the fullest (?) and then there’s always that chance that preparation made no difference because the meteor or nuke makes a direct hit or horribly, you’re out of position and can’t make it back to safety.

I have tried to “have it all” living in the "real world" but also seriously prepping. By making our retreat essentially in town, close to everything, by involving and sharing the financial load with like minded people, by not isolating and having everyone keep a foot in the real world, we have so far for the last 31 years kept our jobs, had normal families, lived in normal communities, taken family vacations, and still had the option to bug out in serious style if things get bad. I don't have a feel for governance in other communities, but I would say our focus on organization has made us successful and self sustaining. It all started with a grocery store with a basement and a few guys musing the possibilities.

Our facility build wasn’t easy, but we had the advantage of a benefactor (shopping center owner) who made building the parking deck next to my grocery possible. We have two entire subterranean levels, access to my grocery storage, and direct connection to the solar grid spread across the entire shopping center.
GTG

 

[wheresclair]

Sorry I am so late my friends. I have enjoyed all the answers! So my next question is how can you make the plan for many people and make the logistics if you have job and if you only meet one time a week or month or in the summer time? All of the people in my group have the jobs or would like to have the jobs so we can only meet on the holiday when we do the best building. We can only do the email or talk on the phone at the rest of the times. I would like to have the Internet at our place so that we could have one person who stay there most of the time and maybe we would have not as many problems with the water leaks and other problems.

 

[wheresclair]

Back soon

 

[wheresclair]

I need to understand quote method
Now I see if you click the REPLY it does the QUOTE but Post Reply is no quote

I have tried to “have it all” living in the "real world" but also seriously prepping. By making our retreat essentially in town, close to everything, by involving and sharing the financial load with like minded people, by not isolating and having everyone keep a foot in the real world, we have so far for the last 31 years kept our jobs, had normal families, lived in normal communities, taken family vacations, and still had the option to bug out in serious style if things get bad.

Sorry I will stop now and do it correct

 

[Dave V]

Clair, sorry for confusing you with the private message. I realize that the point of this forum is sharing and I am eager to learn about your project. So here is my response again.

As far as how we fit training and planning in with our jobs, we have high speed internet on site and are fortunate to have 14 members living there full time. Most are programmers, one is a retired University professor who works on event planning and the curriculum for the kids. All 14 share in the duties of maintenance and security and all are required to spend time "outside" occasionally. I pop in from the grocery store multiple times a day and others on the leadership team do the same. Planning weekend events and the one week summer camp/vacation takes a ton of work and weekly communication with members.

if you can, tell me about the forms that you used to pump the concrete into...were they metal or wood and also what was the strength of the concrete? I imagine you would need 15,000 PSI for a vertical job!

 

[wheresclair]

Dave, I thank you for your patience. I do not know the 15,000 PSI concrete but I know we used the 150 MPa on the deep part and some 100 MPa on the top building. Yes metal forms are borrowed and used many many times.

Amazing, 14 live under all the time? I would be crazy now! Do people have some movies to watch on computers? How can these people do the vacation and how do you get inside and nobody see you?? That seems to be the big risk.

 

[Dave V]

Clair, the easy answer is to traverse through the grocery basement connection. Besides the forklift sized opening, (normally sealed off) there is a door-sized panel lockable from inside the facility. You are correct, security is very important and motion sensitive cams are monitored by on-duty staff and mounted both in the basement and in the parking deck. Any grocery employee will think cams are to make sure they don't steal and under the parking decks
customers and employees will think the cams are to prevent their cars from being broken into.

As far as movies go, we have a ridiculous DVD library that we're considering ditching (Thousands and thousands!) because the guys set up PLEX so we have about 10,000 movies and TV shows that we can watch from any computer or TV on our network. The nice thing is, they figured out how to make it function with or without the Internet so it's pretty awesome. We also keep a current copy of Wikipedia (downloadable but HUGE!) for anything we need to look up if the real Internet goes dark. I mentioned the kid's curriculum earlier, for that we use our state's complete curriculum and we supplement it with kolibri. Kolibri : A Free, Open Source Education for All | Learning Equality It's sort of Khan Academy on steroids and INCLUDES Khan Academy! Our teachers use it to supplement their lessons. Teachers check in with their students weekly to maintain lesson continuity.

Let me know if I am boring you with too much detail as you may be more interested in group organization than training etc. I can opine on that as well.

 

[wheresclair]

early communist red guard in the Sovjet revolution, where a leader was "elected" in a shouting election..

I know how reply works now.
Yes, we have no elections. Leaders are the first ones that think of ideas but we add engineer to position because he is very smart and save us a lot of money and time. Concrete guy in group also because he knows a lot of important information. When I read about the Dave group I can see we can do much better. I can see the electricity and internet are very important for having a guy work in hole for his job. We have many such people in our group who can do the computer program if they have the internet. Good ideas! Please tell me more everyone. What is important and the mistakes you are having? Thank you!

 

[wheresclair]

The Kansas super bunker has about 60 residents I think but they dont all live their permanently, same as the Xpoint in south Dakota .

WOW,WOW! Bill those are amazing! That Kansas place is like a fancy hotel or more! We can never do that good! 15 floors - that is maybe 45 m deep? Wow! And I wonder if people who also have big place can go visit that place or do you have to pay the money to see it?
Bill, all of my people have know me my entire life. So we are all neighbor except engineer and concrete guy. Only maybe 15 people do everything and the rest are family and want food if everything gets bad. I am sometimes afraid down there because I think with all those people it will drive me crazy if I am stuck down there for a long time. We need a lot more of the lights and the electricity but the generator is very loud and makes the air bad. We can do the solar in the field but then all people will know we are there and if they take the solar while we are in the hole, I think it could kill us so we need a better plan. Do you know some way to make the electricity that can not be seen?

 

[wheresclair]

Let me know if I am boring you with too much detail as you may be more interested in group organization than training etc. I can opine on that as well.

Dave, I know you are probably already sleep but I stay up all night because no work tomorrow!
I am sorry I did not reply quick because I am a little bit embarrassed when I see all those places like the Kansas deep place and your group and the Xplace. The Xplace looked nice, but I think it is maybe just digital concept or maybe no one lives there yet to take the photos? I would like to trade my sinkhole for the Kansas place now - wow!
When you did the message to me you asked me about surface - Top of sinkhole is back to the little lake about 0.5 m deep. 2 entrances other locations so no problems with water. When we found sinkhole, it was already the little lake and we used pump for many days. Lake makes sinkhole invisible so that is why we have the electricity problem because we need safe place for solar and trees are very difficult for mounting and field is not safe from stealing. Do that make sense?
And I am sorry that we do not live near the food store so we can do your idea to keep food good. I think now we will be safe for about a week and then everyone will have to leave. I know we will never be able to do the 5 year cruise idea but I think 4 weeks may be a goal for us to achieve!

I am sure I am making many mistakes tonight because I am very tired and the Google Translate helps me say good sentences but it is harder when I get tired! So I will sleep anyway!

 

[jontte]

Dave, I know you are probably already sleep but I stay up all night because no work tomorrow!
I am sorry I did not reply quick because I am a little bit embarrassed when I see all those places like the Kansas deep place and your group and the Xplace. The Xplace looked nice, but I think it is maybe just digital concept or maybe no one lives there yet to take the photos? I would like to trade my sinkhole for the Kansas place now - wow!
When you did the message to me you asked me about surface - Top of sinkhole is back to the little lake about 0.5 m deep. 2 entrances other locations so no problems with water. When we found sinkhole, it was already the little lake and we used pump for many days. Lake makes sinkhole invisible so that is why we have the electricity problem because we need safe place for solar and trees are very difficult for mounting and field is not safe from stealing. Do that make sense?
And I am sorry that we do not live near the food store so we can do your idea to keep food good. I think now we will be safe for about a week and then everyone will have to leave. I know we will never be able to do the 5 year cruise idea but I think 4 weeks may be a goal for us to achieve!

I am sure I am making many mistakes tonight because I am very tired and the Google Translate helps me say good sentences but it is harder when I get tired! So I will sleep anyway!

never feel ashamed of what you and your group built, it's something you all did, with the resources available.
when you accomplish something like that, take pride in it!
about food, cans and dry stuff will add many weeks before you might be forced to leave. sure it can be monotonous,if it's only rice,pasta and tomato in cans,but you get my point I'm sure.

 

[Dave V]

When you did the message to me you asked me about surface - Top of sinkhole is back to the little lake about 0.5 m deep. 2 entrances other locations so no problems with water. When we found sinkhole, it was already the little lake and we used pump for many days. Lake makes sinkhole invisible so that is why we have the electricity problem because we need safe place for solar and trees are very difficult for mounting and field is not safe from stealing. Do that make sense?

Get out of town! That's awesome!
So you

• found a lake,
• drained it,
• discovered it was REALLY deep and was a sinkhole,
• came up with a plan
• engineered a kick-*** retreat
• organized all those people to work together
• found the resources to build your kick-*** retreat
• and MADE IT SO!

....and you feel like you haven't accomplished much???
My friend, you are a leader whether you know it or not...and a good one I'd say!

As for your solar problem, we have an electrical engineer who does our solar array and I will ask him. I know he has been working with a couple of other groups on underwater solar cells. I obviously wasn't paying attention, but I know he was excited about a particular type that he said worked quite well. Cost and availability may be an issue, but maybe you can experiment with one and go from there?

Your "replacing a lake with a lake" idea gives you fantastic camouflage!
I know you said your engineer is very good, so I expect your structure can handle that load.
Very creative!