Doing something wrong with good intentions

[alabaster]

This has come to mind lately because it seems that it's almost become a common practice. I'm not sure if it's because certain people aren't smart, because they think it's a reasonable concept, or because their goal is the priority. It's not a new issue, this is something that has been on my mind for a long time. It's reared it's head over and over in my life, and I've seen it repeatedly in history, too.

If you have something in mind that requires you to let go of moral conviction to attain a goal, is it okay? Does the end really justify the means with which you reach that goal? Is it universally okay, or does it depend on the goal? Does it depend on what means you have to use to reach your goal?

I thought about putting this in Religion & Politics, but this isn't JUST about that. It does seem to be a common theme in politics though, and it's become a common theme within services at our church over the last year or so.

It seems to me that if the only answer to the problem is to compromise your morality to reach your goal, or the only choice you have is to do something "Wrong" to accomplish a task, then you haven't thought about it enough. You just haven't given enough time and thought to how many ways there are to do something. I think too that if you're really convinced that what you're doing is worth doing, then there would be enough conviction to do it WITHOUT having to break the universal moral code that people live by.

Or is it that there actually isn't a universal moral code? I know we all have different opinions on what's right and wrong, but some things are cut and dry. Stealing is bad. Killing people is bad. Even in self defense, but this is a case where most people CAN justify the means to reach the end goal of staying alive. What about stealing to feed your family though? Would you REALLY be stealing because you have NO OTHER choice, or because you haven't exhausted your possible alternatives? What about taking from one who has a lot to give to someone who has very little? There really is a gray area to this, but I'm not sure that it makes it okay to do such things just because it's not "Cut and dry"...

I'd just like to get some thoughts on this, because I swear I think that I know the answer, but every time it comes up, someone tells me "It depends on the situation." As though there is no real right and wrong, but that it's all an issue of relativism. Does it really depend on what the circumstances are? Or is moral code as inflexible and definitive as some make it out to be? Is there really a black and white or has society gotten so big that there are so many circumstances that there are legitimate reasons to do things that even you consider to be "Wrong"?

 

[Tyler]

I belive in a warriors code. I think that, yea, it depends, but when it comes down to it at the end of the day survival is about the strongest, smartest and fastest. I will do what I need to in order to survive. Morals play a role in that but at the end of the day my survival is the top of the list. That being said there are somethings I wouldn't do. I would never steal from my family or those that I love.

 

[getnready]

This is a dilema each individual will have to work out and live with their decision. During a crisis you do what is necessary to keep your family and yourself alive. That has to be your mindset or you will fail. If you hesitate in deciding during the moment, you will loose!

 

[doc pops]

Tyler and getnready, are both correct! I am not a murder, although life has been taken in combat. It has been said that there are sheep, wolves and sheepdogs! I would like to think of my self as the sheepdog. That said, we live in a rural area, most work in the cities and are good families of hard working people! Then there is a family out here we think will be a problems in a WORL. We know that there is meth involved! We know that the Duke Boys have been out in force twice. We know they abuse the welfare system... would I help these people yes, would I let them know that we donated foods or meds, ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I think about a person or person's who have ceased control of a food distribution center and are hording and all around are starving, or have damned up the water source for and area for personal gain. What about a group ceasing a hospital or pharmacy warehouse when people need medicine. I know these things will happen, I worked in Homestead after Andrew, LA. after Katrina, and Punta Gorda after Charlie! Bad people will be bad, good people try to be good. That said, if your neighbors kids are starving and you have food and don't help even anonymously, he will go to anmial behaviors. There is food all around, but the BABY BOOMERS and GENERATION "X", don't know where to find it. Why because a chickens naturally comes from the store. All in all "I" think we should try to keep the "GOLDEN RULE", plan for the worse, and PRAY for the best!

 

[Tyler]

Adding on to what I said last time and what doc pops has said I'd like to say that I'm no murder nor to I have any desire to be. I don't want to be the bad guy but if I need to in order to survive than I will. I'll do what I need to in order to survive

 

[Brent S]

I don't see a moral delimma for a person killing to protect his family or property. I see a clear cut crossing of the line if you kill for supplies or gain of any kind. I don't have a religious conviction telling me what it right or wrong, I know it in my DNA. I was born with a conscience, I think we all are, but it you turn it off each time you do something bad, after a while you loose it completely. It sucks that we live in a world where there are really bad people, but we do, and you better be prepared to deal with them harshly, cause when the shtf the place will be crawling with people that don't have my values. I won't loose any sleep by hurting those that would harm me or mine.

 

[alabaster]

I don't think you can justify compromising your morals, personally. I mean, I know people have and will continue to do it, but that usually doesn't justify the means, IMO. Self defense is not included IMO because I feel like someone who is trying to harm you needs to be stopped for your sake, and for society's sake.

I'm with Brent S on the "Hunting supplies" bit though. If you haven't prepared for you and yours, then shame on you for not and thinking it's okay to take other's to get it. Keep in mind that most of the people who are prepping these days are well aware that people will be coming for their goods and are prepping for that, too.

I'm also referring to an everyday situation. Politics, and other things... Like..... Say... "Socialized" medicine. I think the healthcare system has been in a bad way for a long time. I don't think that the current law, ACA is the right answer though. I don't believe that hurting others to help others makes any sense.... I bet you read that line twice. See? It doesn't make any sense!

Across the board I think that morals are morals. I don't think it's okay in once sense, so why would it be in another? Especially if I am convicted in my heart to get to prepping. Even for folks who can't afford much.... You can afford a book! $20 will buy you one h**l of a book to learn some survivalist skills. No, it isn't the end of the road. There are other things you will need, but a good woodsman doesn't need a bullet proof truck, 5k rounds of ammo, and 500 gallons of water to get by the vast majority of scenarios, either. I think the whole point of prepping now is to keep us from having to deal with bad things later, and one of them is moral compromise.

 

[Dani]

Honestly I hate that people who have not prepared will end up doing whatever to survive. What are they supposed to do when they have hungry children to feed? They may not be willing to do whatever when it is them, but for a child or loved one?? Mentality just changes then, but no it doesn't make it alright at all. A wrong doing is just that, but when it comes to survival, man is out to survive and will do whatever they have to in the end. I wish people had a moral code to live by, but when it happens, it will be survival of the fittest. That is why the people who have prepared need to be up on their weapons, if they want to survive. I am not one who wants to kill at all, but if I have to defend myself, loved one, or what I have that will sustain us for the long run, I will if I have to. Not saying that I will not share with someone, but they will have to actually "give" some work or whatever they may offer.

 

[realisticdude]

If I have trouble sleeping because of something I've done , it does not always mean that it was wrong. It may just mean that it bothers me ,because I would have done it differently , If I could have. If something disgusts YOU, then to YOU that thing is immoral. Morality is not universal.

 

[alabaster]

No, that's definitely true. Different people have different morals, that's without question. There are certain things that are fairly universal though. Murder, rape, robbery... Those things are frowned on almost universally. With the exception of what society would usually call... Murders, rapists, and thieves... There isn't really flexibility on everything. Universal relativism can't apply to those things. In some cases, you make a rational explanation, like, self defense. That disqualifies "murder" automatically in MOST people's eyes.

Stealing is another one that I think people can make excuses or explanations on, but not really with the conviction that it's okay, but they would likely use an argument like, "You would too if you were in my shoes." Or another type of rationalization. It may not actually be wrong, but they struggle with it in their minds(Not like what realisticdude is saying. Struggling with morality isn't the same as struggling with wishing you had done it differently. That's a how or why difference).

This is why I posted this thread. This really is a subject with many points of view.

 

[realisticdude]

Reread the 10 commandments , let God be the judge of morality. We will ALL stand before God in our end.

 

[alabaster]

Realisticdude, we seem to have a communication issue. Or a thought processing disconnect somewhere. I am asking a question, but posing an argument FOR standard moral views and opposing a "Moral relativism" concept that in my opinion, is starting to take a foot hold in the prepping community.

 

[Dani]

Reread the 10 commandments , let God be the judge of morality. We will ALL stand before God in our end.

God will be my ultimate Judge when I leave here, but even He got angry with people here on earth and passed "judgment" in a way, just look at the Old Testament. To murder is to murder and I am not one who "thinks" that it is ok, but if it comes down to my life/loved one or the other persons, I will kill if given the chance. I believe it all depends on the circumstance. Everyone will have to stand before God on Judgment Day, and He will make the call then.

 

[realisticdude]

My thought process leans towards realism.........."naive"realism..............WTSHTF you will have the answers to your questions...Direct awareness, brother..............simple reality. I'm positive you will do the right thing.......#uck the psychology of it.

 

[sharkbait]

Leaving religion out of it,I consider myself to have a decent mans moral code and try my best to instill it into my two kids.I work very hard and spend alot of money into fortifying and supplying my homestead to be as self sufficient as possible.However once the SHTF and/if WROL has set in,that could all be stripped in one quick swoop.Depending on the situation,if it is pure raw survival,yes I will do whatever is needed to protect and feed my family even if I have to put my morals aside.