Gravel filled walls.

[Rob Painless]

I originally posted this on another preparedness site..............

I built a small wall with 2x4 framing, 4' wide by about 2' tall, and sheathed it with 3/4" CDX (plywood) on both sides, leaving the top open so I could add/remove the fill. For this test, I used simple pea gravel (because that's what I had) and filled one of the cells, 14" wide, almost to the top of the opening.
I set the test wall up in the field next to my house, marked the area which I wanted to shoot and backed off to about 165' (55 yards) away.
I fired 3 shots from a bolt action rifle with 22" barrel using .223 55 gr FMJ ammunition and then 5 shots from a semi-auto rifle with 18" barrel using 3 rounds of .308 150 gr jacketed soft point (a hunting round) and then 2 rounds of .308 150 gr FMJ. All shots were in an apx. 1 foot square except for 1 shot of each caliber which I aimed high, just below the gravel fill line as a test for that area.
I am pleased to report that there were ZERO penetrations out the far side (exit side) of the wall. Wow. I really thought the .308 FMJ's would have needed at least a 2x6 frame to stop them from passing through.....but not so.
Next test was to fill one of the two remaining cells in the wall with sand/dirt and see what would happen with that. The results were not too great. Almost everything went all the way through. The only thing that got stopped was a couple of .223 soft point rounds. Better than nothing? Maybe. But I wouldn't want to count on it.

I'm having problems loading pictures, but will when the problems stop.

 

[ANACONDA]

What you brickwork 2 bricks are not satisfied ???

In a qualitative brick and cement wall which withstand not only 50BMG and even 23mm

 

[Gazrok]

Sandbags do work (so dirt), but typically, the guideline is to have two layers of it, (and each is already about twice as wide or more than your 4"). Other ideas I've seen though, are filling tire stacks with dirt, concrete block (of course, with rebar and poured concrete inside), etc. Those new modern ones (that can be filled with dirt) are awesome too, but suspect they'd be hard to get.

A brick and cement wall, would of course, be damn tough as well. We're doing out planters (i.e. pillbox sentry stations) with concrete block, rebar, and poured concrete). They'll be planters pre SHTF, but easy to convert after.

 

[Rob Painless]

A brick and cement wall, would of course, be damn tough as well.

Indeed. I think it would too. But it would also probably be damned expensive & time consuming. But if done right, could be very aesthetically pleasing. Gravel is cheap by comparison and pretty easy to use. I also like the fact that it is hidden, which keeps others (bad guys) from being able to plan ahead for defeating or getting around it. The downside, of course, is that it takes a little effort to incorporate it into existing construction. But it is super easy to put it into new construction. Medium easy if doing a remodel to existing walls. Really good fire barrier, too, as well as reasonably good insulating properties.
Curious about how tall your planters are. Also curious if you have built a test model to shoot at & see how well it holds up. That would be good info to share. I have wondered about that kind of construction.

 

[Gazrok]

We plan on making them basically 4 blocks high. There will be 3 removable openings about the size of a standard brick (not block), for firing ports. In pre-SHTF planter mode, there will be bricks blocking there (with a screwed in ring to remove, then with the rings facing in for removal from that side). Post SHTF, we dig out the dirt and plants, and a cover will bolt into place (keeps rain off, incendiaries), for the sentry.

I haven't built them yet, as I have to budget for the blocks, rebar, and cement. Most likely, I'll only pour cement in the same columns as the rebar, with gravel in the rest.

 

[Rob Painless]

I haven't built them yet, as I have to budget for the blocks, rebar, and cement. Most likely, I'll only pour cement in the same columns as the rebar, with gravel in the rest.

Cool! I like your ideas. Concerned about the blocks/cells that won't have cement in them. Cinder blocks tend to fall apart quickly under bullet strikes and could possibly dump any loose fill, leaving your fighting position less protected & vulnerable. Build a small sample wall & shoot it several times with different caliber weapons....then let us all know how it held up! Hmmmm....maybe I will, too. If I can find time to add another thing to my schedule.

 

[Gazrok]

Concerned about the blocks/cells that won't have cement in them. Cinder blocks tend to fall apart quickly under bullet strikes and could possibly dump any loose fill,

A valid concern. However, post SHTF, we will have sandbags as well. I was just planning on one thickness on the outside, to kind of help out the concrete. (we'd be using the dirt from the planters to fill them)

 

[Brent S]

I originally posted this on another preparedness site..............

I built a small wall with 2x4 framing, 4' wide by about 2' tall, and sheathed it with 3/4" CDX (plywood) on both sides, leaving the top open so I could add/remove the fill. For this test, I used simple pea gravel (because that's what I had) and filled one of the cells, 14" wide, almost to the top of the opening.
I set the test wall up in the field next to my house, marked the area which I wanted to shoot and backed off to about 165' (55 yards) away.
I fired 3 shots from a bolt action rifle with 22" barrel using .223 55 gr FMJ ammunition and then 5 shots from a semi-auto rifle with 18" barrel using 3 rounds of .308 150 gr jacketed soft point (a hunting round) and then 2 rounds of .308 150 gr FMJ. All shots were in an apx. 1 foot square except for 1 shot of each caliber which I aimed high, just below the gravel fill line as a test for that area.
I am pleased to report that there were ZERO penetrations out the far side (exit side) of the wall. Wow. I really thought the .308 FMJ's would have needed at least a 2x6 frame to stop them from passing through.....but not so.
Next test was to fill one of the two remaining cells in the wall with sand/dirt and see what would happen with that. The results were not too great. Almost everything went all the way through. The only thing that got stopped was a couple of .223 soft point rounds. Better than nothing? Maybe. But I wouldn't want to count on it.

I'm having problems loading pictures, but will when the problems stop.

I'm really impressed with your results. I would have guessed gravel would be better, but would not have thought by much. I'd like to test a solid concrete filled block. It would stop a round, but might start to crumble after many shots. Thanks for your effort on both testing and posting the results.

 

[user 6493]

well I am thinking 80# sacks of ready mix concrete, 30 bags will make a wall 10 ft long 2 ft high cost about $120.00,I have plans for a bunker and surrounding the Hatch with them I might even do a double row and go 30 inches high,when the wall is finished throw some dirt on it for camo and plant some grass on it

 

[Brent S]

well I am thinking 80# sacks of ready mix concrete, 30 bags will make a wall 10 ft long 2 ft high cost about $120.00,I have plans for a bunker and surrounding the Hatch with them I might even do a double row and go 30 inches high,when the wall is finished throw some dirt on it for camo and plant some grass on it

As far as a good defense wall, just a mound of dirt is excellent. Good old dirt will stop just about any projectile. It absorbs the impact, dispersing the energy without hurting the mound. Later you could even dig the lead out and send it back to the attackers! Seriously, a three ft thick mound is cheap, effective and could be worked into a landscape theme, as you don't want something that screams 'hey, I've got a bunker full of supplies here'. Having a backhoe to move the dirt is kind of a must though.

 

[user 6493]

As far as a good defense wall, just a mound of dirt is excellent. Good old dirt will stop just about any projectile. It absorbs the impact, dispersing the energy without hurting the mound. Later you could even dig the lead out and send it back to the attackers! Seriously, a three ft thick mound is cheap, effective and could be worked into a landscape theme, as you don't want something that screams 'hey, I've got a bunker full of supplies here'. Having a backhoe to move the dirt is kind of a must though.

I live 3.5 miles down a dirt road there are 4 ways in ,one has a old bridge over it,blow the bridge and block 2 of the other 3 with trees,even for anyone who knows the area there is not much reason to come back in here,trash up the area around the house give it that no one has been here for years look,I may never have anyone even look at the place

 

[Roninsensei]

We used the hesco barriers in Africa. They work great with sand or gravel.

 

[drt4lfe]

the gravel is effective because of the gaps between each piece and it redirects bullet path due to all of the angles the gravel has and better hardness compared to the dirt sand at the thickness you are using...no two bullets every do the same thing when they strike something....FMJ bullets will fall apart like soft points and sometimes stay intact....no guarantee...a small fast fmj bullet from a 5.56/223 rifle does all manner of things once it hits something versus a large 50 BMG fmj round that tends to push through using the high amount of energy....gaps in layers of protection( dirt, rock, wood ) will always have a better stopping chance than no gaps in material...until of course you wall is so thick it would stop any round, if you have room for that much thickness...

 

[Rob Painless]

 

[DrHenley]

Rob, the pictures you are posting have no URL, just a file name.

 

[Rob Painless]

Rob, the pictures you are posting have no URL, just a file name.

Yeah, I'm not very good at this. Weird.. I can rewire/re-engineer a feed mill or grain elevator, but I can't figure out how to put a stinkin' picture on here.

 

[DrHenley]

If the picture is coming from your computer, you will need to upload it first.

At the lower right, there are three buttons, "Post Reply", "Upload a File", and "More Options"

Click on "Upload a File" Then "Choose File" then find your picture, click on it, then click on "Open"

Then put the cursor where you want the image to appear, and click on "Full Image"

 

[Rob Painless]

Then put the cursor where you want the image to appear, and click on "Full Image"

Well...it seems to be 100% loaded, but it isn't giving me the option for 'full image', or any other further option.

Edit...ok, now trying it under 'edit' ....same result.

 

[DrHenley]

Must be a browser issue.

 

[WGregMiller]

Sounds about right - Try cleaning up your temporary Internet files....

 

[Murphy]

I have built no defensive barriers yet, and don't plan to unless SHTF. That said, my plan is to use 55 gallon drums and fill them with dirt. I have a farm tractor with a front end loader and even a barrel lifting device and I plan to line the barrels up in a row and start filling them with dirt.

They will be staggered so that there are no "thin spots" where bullets can sneak through between barrels.

I have hundreds of empty 55 gallon drums neatly stacked on their sides on racks.. (we're on a small farm so we can do these things). Should SHTF, it would probably take about 1 day's worth of effort to move all the drums in place where I want barriers and to use the tractor loader bucket to fill them with dirt.

One nice things about the drums is that they are kind of like sand bags in that they are very modular.. you can stand them up, stack them, or lay them down... and when they're filled with dirt, they weigh about 800 lbs so its not like a grenade or a person is going to easily move them or blow them apart.

Well.. that's the plan.. it looks good on paper anyhow. Opinions?

 

[Marv.Schmitz87]

Well.. that's the plan.. it looks good on paper anyhow. Opinions?

Sounds good, id make sure to keep the barrels out of the sunlight while you store em. And filling 100s of barrels with dirt is going to take longer than one day, even with a tractor.

 

[Brent S]

What about just making a mound of dirt? I've given a lot of thought about this. The problem is with a conventional house, one moltove cocktail thrown over the barrier onto your roof and your burned out. I still think some fortified fighting posistions is a smart thing to consider though. Dirt is great stuff, it's cheap, is everywhere, and will stop just about any ordinance. I love the old western movies where they hide behind a tabletop or wall during a shootout. That would slow down a bullet at best.
I think camouflage is the best defense. Someone here talked about putting a derilect old trailer on the front of the property, and having your home back out of sight. Of course this only applies to building new as it would be a bitch to move my house now....

 

[Gazrok]

It would stop a round, but might start to crumble after many shots

Why I'm hoping the one layer of sandbags on the outside would absorb a lot of the initial hit, to keep the concrete from crumbling. Like I said, we'd fill em with the dirt from the planter, so post SHTF, shouldn't take more than a few hours to go from planter to fortified pillbox.

 

[Gazrok]

The problem is with a conventional house, one moltove cocktail thrown over the barrier onto your roof and your burned out.

Luckily, our house is quite a distance (definitely more than throwing distance) from most all fence lines. There is some stuff you can do to help fireproof a standard roof (the walls are concrete block).

https://universalfireshield.com/?gclid=CICC5eKSzNICFYUehgod-e0JNw

 

[Murphy]

My home sits about 600 feet from the road with a large semi-open field in front. A few pine trees, a tree line (hardwoods) on one side, etc. We're on 15 acres and the house is in the middle of it.

If SHTF, here is my plan for defense.
1. Post signs next to the road. "Do Not Tresspass. No Warning Shots" (I'm still debating this)
2. We will be installing ****y traps into the ground.. Thousands of spikes to puncture tires and feet in area's where no one should be traveling.
3. We will be installing those shotgun shell perimeter alarms in strategic locations and as these "alarms" get closer to the house, they'll progressively change into lethal ****y traps.
4. We will be installing dozens of much more lethal devices designed for manual electrical activation from the home.

My main concern, (so far anyhow), is a gunfight that takes place at a distance of around 300 to 600 feet. One of my (minor?) worries are bullets being shot into our shingle roof on the house.. So for that, I have extra shingles and a couple gallons of wet-patch tar as well as aluminum flashing materials. Just general household maintenance stuff I had before I started any real prepping.

Our tractor loader is a 1/3 yard bucket so a single bucket can fill about 1.25 drums.. combined with manual shoveling, it shouldn't take long. The drums are steel so they can also be bolted or welded together to form structural shapes if needed.

My home is brick so there's some protection there.

 

[Gazrok]

Post signs next to the road. "Do Not Tresspass. No Warning Shots" (I'm still debating this)

The downside here is that it tells someone that there is something worth protecting ahead...

The better bet, is just making it look like a bad idea....(car wrecks to obscure travel, etc.)

 

[Rob Painless]

That said, my plan is to use 55 gallon drums and fill them with dirt.

Sound like a decent plan. Might be a good idea to fill one of those barrels & test how well it stops bullets. Shoot at it with some different calibers of rifles and make sure of what it will & won't stop. Different soil types may have different stopping powers. Also, let us know your results.

Interesting....I'm editing this to mention that I typed the word (shoot) where the pistolero smilie is. I didn't select it. Hmmm...

 

[Murphy]

Sound like a decent plan. Might be a good idea to fill one of those barrels & test how well it stops bullets. Shoot at it with some different calibers of rifles and make sure of what it will & won't stop. Different soil types may have different stopping powers. Also, let us know your results.

Interesting....I'm editing this to mention that I typed the word (shoot) where the pistolero smilie is. I didn't select it. Hmmm...

We live in a very sandy area and judging by the youtube videos where people test various bullet stopping powers of various objects, my 55 gallon drums filled with dirt should stop everything up to 50 BMG and possibly even higher under some conditions.

I am curious though.. dirt and sand is almost always moist.. it always has some level of moisture content. I've never seen tests done on dry soil vs wet soil and/or warm soil vs frozen soil. I would think frozen soil would be even better but my limited experience also says ballistics can be counter intuitive with some things.

 

[Brent S]

We live in a very sandy area and judging by the youtube videos where people test various bullet stopping powers of various objects, my 55 gallon drums filled with dirt should stop everything up to 50 BMG and possibly even higher under some conditions.

I am curious though.. dirt and sand is almost always moist.. it always has some level of moisture content. I've never seen tests done on dry soil vs wet soil and/or warm soil vs frozen soil. I would think frozen soil would be even better but my limited experience also says ballistics can be counter intuitive with some things.

I say for a good ballistics test, think about what the most likely and common weapon out there that could be used against you in a shtf situation. Use that to test out your ideas.