Hydroxy Gas

[Peanut]

I was digging around in the shop today and found my “test cell”. Internally it has 8 cathode/anode pairs. I messed with this for about 3 years, lots to learn! And a lot of fun!!!

The other day Ben used the term “cracking water”, meaning to to burst water molecules apart. The resulting mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas is called by some “Hydroxy”. 1 liter of water will produce about 1850 liters of gas.

This cell does exactly that, it’s an “on demand” cell that “cracks water”.

First… folks have been trying to run an engine on water since the internal combustion engine has been around,. That’s not what this is. Think of this cell as a fuel booster. The average diesel engine only uses about 25% of the chemical energy in diesel fuel. Gasoline engines are even less efficient.

Adding HHO gas to the air/fuel mix greatly increases the fuel efficiency of an internal combustion engine. It allows more of the fuel to be burned. Folks were experimenting with this by ww1. In ww2 the British mounted these cells in tanks used in N. Africa (Sahara desert). Fuel was difficult to haul across the desert.

The reason this will not help modern computerized vehicles… The pesky O2 sensors in a vehicle exhaust system. HHO will greatly increase the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. A vehicle computer tries to correct what it sees as an incorrect exhaust mixture. It increases the richness of the air/fuel mix offsetting any advantages gained…

But an old school engine without a computer, HHO works great. I ran this gas in several vehicles and tractors. I got a 35% increase of fuel efficiency on an old perkins diesel engine (ford tractor).

Anyway, I included a pdf of a wet cell design called a “Smacks Booster”. If anyone wants to play around with it… This cell design has flaws, the biggest being thermal. It produces way to much heat for continuous use. About 30 minutes drive time in a truck with a 5L engine. There are many other cell designs, the main one being a dry cell design, see last pic.

WARNING – DANGER – HHO, it explodes violently! They use a hydrogen and oxygen mix in the old Saturn 5 rocket boosters for example.

1 cup of this H H O gas is enough volume to KILL you from the resulting shockwave after explosion. And will cause permanent hearing damage, if you live. I can attest to the fact only a little HHO creates a very large explosion. It goes boom! Very loudly! An extremely well ventilated work area is recommended.

---------------------------

HYDROGEN, OXYGEN and the H H O mixture of the two, obtained from electrolyzing water are EXTREMELY EXPLOSIVE and DANGEROUS gasses. BE CAREFUL!

1) Do not use glass as a container for holding/creating/piping this gas vapor. (glass makes nasty shrapnel)

2) HHO is very static sensitive and will ignite given the opportunity. Always handle it as if it is about to explode. In other words... Never handle it or try to store it, unless you have very expensive equipment... I'm sure NASA has some laying around.

3) Any spark will ignite HHO, if electrodes are close enough to touch, make sure they are always submerged in water. Connect wires to the electrodes at the bottom of your container. Do not use aluminum connectors to electrodes. Always use stainless steel of 304 or 316 grade

4) A BUBBLER with a pop off cap must always be used when producing HHO. A bubbler is the most basic form of safety for you and your equipment. Do not even begin to experiment without one.

5) Do not attempt to ignite the HHO from the end of the output hose from the cell, it will detonate the bubbler. If no bubbler is used it will detonate the cell. And the shrapnel from the exploding cell will either kill or blind you.

6) Engines are prone to backfiring at anytime. USE A BUBBLER ALWAYS. You can see the bubbler in my pics, 1” diameter hose about 15” tall, very dirty in the pic.

7) Electrolyte – Use pure KOH (Potassium Hydroxide, lye aka caustic soda). It can be obtained from soap making suppliers (or NaOH, Sodium hydroxide). Avoid silly mistakes like using table salt or anything with impurities. (impurities add variables to the process, some can be dangerous).

Also, I use a clear acrylic pipe for my test cell, expensive but so I could see what was happening while running.

(One last word about electrolytes... as gas escapes the water in the cell it carries tiny particles of the KOH with it. Very caustic and does nasty things to metal engines. The bubbler acts as a filter (a bong for any pot heads out there). Lastly, and most importantly it isolates the cell from engine backfires. I've seen what a cell explosion does to an engine compartment. It's not pretty!)
-----------------------------

Dry cell design

 

[Peanut]

Here is a cell I put in a 94 Silverado with a 5L engine. It has a OBD1 computer, much easier to defeat than an OBD2 in later vehicles.

I went from 16mpg to about 22mpg, a nice increase but because of cell thermal issues I could only run it about 30min in winter, 20 in summer before the cell would overheat and start boiling off water (steam, not good for fuel efficiency)

There are a few items here not in the basic cell design. Extra filtration etc. and heat shield. You can see the bubbler clearly.

 

[Bacpacker]

Pretty cool info Peanut.

 

[Caribou]

Back in the day when the gas stations had water and air at the islands my grandfather towed an Airstream with a Lincoln. He would cross the desert and climb mountains. This tended to overheat the engine. To combat the overheating he had a setup that would spray water on the radiator. The water tank was in the trunk.

He was filling the water tank one day, while crossing the desert. A guy came up and asked him what that tank was. He explained that he had a special carburetor and when he got to speed, and the engine was warm, he'd flip a switch and run on water rather than gas. Please don't mention anything because if the oil companies knew about it they would kill me.

 

[Peanut]

Back in the day when the gas stations had water and air at the islands my grandfather towed an Airstream with a Lincoln. He would cross the desert and climb mountains. This tended to overheat the engine. To combat the overheating he had a setup that would spray water on the radiator. The water tank was in the trunk.

...he had a special carburetor and when he got to speed, and the engine was warm, he'd flip a switch and run on water rather than gas...

Funny you should post this... some ww2 aircraft had a water injection system into the carb. It boosted power under certain conditions.

Maybe your uncle knew about this..

Here's a clip of a ww2 notice about a P47D Thunderbolt aircraft engine. And the pdf...

 

[SheepDog]

Yes, a lot of super and turbo charged planes use a water injector to cool cylinders so preignition and detonation didn't ruin them. There was a Buick model that had a factory turbo charger on a 10:1 engine. They had a water/alcohol injector to cool the cylinders for the same reason. The owner had to keep the small tank full or the engine would lose power and eventually punch holes in the pistons. The turbo lasted just one year.

Neither of these systems use HHO or had any means to generate HHO.
When ethanol is used as the sole fuel in a piston engine running 100% ethanol requires a compression ratio of about 14:1. Using the same compression with 85% ethanol and 15% water will get better economy and more power Because the water is turned into super heated steam by evaporation which cools the cylinder and pushes longer and more efficiently during the power stroke. It is similar to adding a steam cycle to the power cycle of the engine.

 

[viking]

The R-4360 engines, four of them on a C-124 Globemaster cargo plane had water injection, the Air Force called it ADI, anti detenation injection, pure Isopropylyl alcohol was mixed in the water tanks so that the water didn't freeze. The R-4360 engine put out about 3,000 hp for take off, that 4360 number was the cubic inches each engine had, they were four rows of seven cylinders each, highly effecient, rated at about one horse power per pound of engine weight. I've seen videos of racing planes using one of these engines. This type of engine may have been used on the plane that Howard Hughes crashed and got burned. I did a bit of research on making and using a hydrogen system, I came to the conclusion that for me it would be more trouble than it was worth, on the other hand I did have a water injection system on my 78 Bronco that I installed a 429 engine in, it's the only thing that was able to stop the detonation problem I had with that high compression engine, Edelbrock made the water injection system, it made enough difference that the Bronco could do about 130 mph, but not having 100 octane fuel available made running that 429 engine not worth the problems it gave me.

 

[Caribou]

Funny you should post this... some ww2 aircraft had a water injection system into the carb. It boosted power under certain conditions.

Maybe your uncle knew about this..

Here's a clip of a ww2 notice about a P47D Thunderbolt aircraft engine. And the pdf...

View attachment 81173

Actually Grandpa taught ground school in WWII. He was a barnstormer and his first plane was a WWI surplus.

 

[Peanut]

I did a bit of research on making and using a hydrogen system, I came to the conclusion that for me it would be more trouble than it was worth

HHO isn't suited for just any vehicle, especially after OBD2 computers.

I can hook up Hydroxy to any engine... But making any changes to vehicle electronic control is a different set of problems. Some makes/models become a nightmare. They "powers that be" don't want better fuel efficiency, they want to sell us gasoline! They made it extremely difficult for a car owner to substantively increase fuel mileage.

The biggest shared problem across all makes of vehicles is dirty electrical systems. I made very liberal use of ferrites, had a box of them left over from working to CT's and MRI's. I also made and added spike suppression coils to my circuits. All just to clean up the electrical systems.

Actually Grandpa taught ground school in WWII. He was a barnstormer and his first plane was a WWI surplus.

Then he definitely knew about water injection systems.

I spent over a year researching the history of water and other alternative fuel systems. Some get into areas of power best left for someone like Mr. Tesla to explain, shame he's not around.

Some of these systems are amazing. Each is complex and deserves it's own thread.

--------------------------------------------

Here is a guy who hooked 6 HHO cells to a big truck. The size of an engine doesn't matter. Just have to scale up HHO gas production.

 

[Caribou]

HHO isn't suited for just any vehicle, especially after OBD2 computers.

I can hook up Hydroxy to any engine... But making any changes to vehicle electronic control is a different set of problems. Some makes/models become a nightmare. They "powers that be" don't want better fuel efficiency, they want to sell us gasoline! They made it extremely difficult for a car owner to substantively increase fuel mileage.

The biggest shared problem across all makes of vehicles is dirty electrical systems. I made very liberal use of ferrites, had a box of them left over from working to CT's and MRI's. I also made and added spike suppression coils to my circuits. All just to clean up the electrical systems.



Then he definitely knew about water injection systems.

I spent over a year researching the history of water and other alternative fuel systems. Some get into areas of power best left for someone like Mr. Tesla to explain, shame he's not around.

Some of these systems are amazing. Each is complex and deserves it's own thread.

--------------------------------------------

Here is a guy who hooked 6 HHO cells to a big truck. The size of an engine doesn't matter. Just have to scale up HHO gas production.

View attachment 81183

Six cells working at once, or are they rotating through them to allow the cells to cool off?

 

[Peanut]

Six cells working at once, or are they rotating through them to allow the cells to cool off?

I don't remember the details of what the guy was doing, just saw his posts about it. I had no intention of running that many cells so didn't deep dive his setup.

 

[Caribou]

I don't remember the details of what the guy was doing, just saw his posts about it. I had no intention of running that many cells so didn't deep dive his setup.

If they only ran for half an hour at a time, would you need three or two cells to run one continuously?

 

[Peanut]

If they only ran for half an hour at a time, would you need three or two cells to run one continuously?

He could have a reservoir to provide cooling for the catalyst. They are several options to get around or correct the design limitations of any cell. Depends on the time and effort he wished to make and room under the hood for additional components.

Most passenger cars have no spare room in the engine compartment. A big truck has extra space, more options when building a system.

For instance, a dry cell is relatively small. Mine is 4.5"x5.5"x7.5". But the design requires a reservoir system. Pros and Cons with all cell designs.

Here's a better shot of my dry cell. I experimented with many cells designs. I settled on something I could do without a lot of extra hoops to jump through. In a grid down situation I could increase fuel efficiency by 30%+ on old vehicles or tractors without much difficulty.

 

[SheepDog]

If you calculate the watts it takes to run the electrolysis to turn the weight of the water into HHO you will find that it is nearly impossible without additional generator capacity. You will be using most of your HP to make HHO and loose a lot of power to run your vehicle.
I've done the math and unles you found a way to use high voltage at a high frequency with very low amperage you are fooling yourself.
I have never seen a car that could make enough HHO to run itself.
It takes 2.2 pounds of Hydrogen to equal 1 gallon of gasoline. To make 2.2 pounds of hydrogen from water you need to process 8.8 pounds of water. One gallon of water weighs 7 to 7.5 pounds. To get the same miles as a car with a 10 gallon tank you need about 12 gallons of water.
Remember that has to be replaced each 200 miles (assuming it gets 20 mpg on gas)
If I am wrong show me the car that runs on its own produced HHO. Heck show me the HHO system that will process 10 gallons of water in 200 miles.

 

[Neb]

If you calculate the watts it takes to run the electrolysis to turn the weight of the water into HHO you will find that it is nearly impossible without additional generator capacity. You will be using most of your HP to make HHO and loose a lot of power to run your vehicle.
I've done the math and unles you found a way to use high voltage at a high frequency with very low amperage you are fooling yourself.
I have never seen a car that could make enough HHO to run itself.
It takes 2.2 pounds of Hydrogen to equal 1 gallon of gasoline. To make 2.2 pounds of hydrogen from water you need to process 8.8 pounds of water. One gallon of water weighs 7 to 7.5 pounds. To get the same miles as a car with a 10 gallon tank you need about 12 gallons of water.
Remember that has to be replaced each 200 miles (assuming it gets 20 mpg on gas)
If I am wrong show me the car that runs on its own produced HHO. Heck show me the HHO system that will process 10 gallons of water in 200 miles.

Agreed!

Ben

 

[SheepDog]

The power needed using Lye as the electrolyte you need between 1.5 and 2.01 volts across each plate. The amps used depends on the speed of the reaction and the number and size of plates. To run a car at 50mph you need to process 3 gallons of water an hour.

 

[Peanut]

@SheepDog Maybe you missed the part where I clearly wrote this thread IS Not about running a car on water! Only about increasing fuel efficiency.

Start a thread if you want to discuss the silly topic of a water only car.

First… folks have been trying to run an engine on water since the internal combustion engine has been around,. That’s not what this is. Think of this cell as a fuel booster.
Dry cell design

 

[SheepDog]

Where does the "dry cell" get its hydrogen?
How does it improve efficiency?
How do you measure efficiency?
If you can improve efficiency why can't it be scaled up to run the engine on HHO alone?
There was a build of a small engine that ran on HHO. No other fuel needed. The engine made 35 to 38 HP but the HHO generator was a big bank of batteries charged by household line powered 300 amp charger.

 

[Peanut]

Where does the "dry cell" get its hydrogen?
How does it improve efficiency?
How do you measure efficiency?
If you can improve efficiency why can't it be scaled up to run the engine on HHO alone?

You should really work on your english comprehension not your math...

For the 3rd time - this thread isn't about powering a car with water only.

I posted a pdf file at the top... it explains this particular cell completely so read it. It's the topic of this thread...

 

[SheepDog]

Yea, the PDF won't open for me.

 

[Peanut]

Opens fine for me.

 

[SheepDog]

I'm sure it does.
So, how do you measure increased efficiency?

 

[Peanut]

I'm sure it does.
So, how do you measure increased efficiency?

I said I measured gas mileage. And no I don't own a lab so an efficiency formulas are pointless in this real world setting... But there are lots of websites with efficiency calculators if you wish to learn how.

 

[SheepDog]

Those efficiency calculators are for many different types of efficiency and not many measure for mileage. There are too many variables where mileage is the test. I once got 100% better mileage on my V8 Maverick over a 300 mile trip. It normally gets 20 miles per gallon and on a trip traveling from Seattle to Walla Walla going over the Cascades and through the Blue mountain foothills and the car loaded with guns and gear (moving) got a bit more than 40 mpg. Nothing was done to the car, I just drove differently. I used to tell students that wanted better mileage to change the nut on the accelerator. I know as well as anybody that there are some things that change mileage but none make as much difference as changing the way you drive. (I even tested that with an OBD 2 SUV)

 

[Magus]

I was digging around in the shop today and found my “test cell”. Internally it has 8 cathode/anode pairs. I messed with this for about 3 years, lots to learn! And a lot of fun!!!

The other day Ben used the term “cracking water”, meaning to to burst water molecules apart. The resulting mixture of hydrogen and oxygen gas is called by some “Hydroxy”. 1 liter of water will produce about 1850 liters of gas.

This cell does exactly that, it’s an “on demand” cell that “cracks water”.

First… folks have been trying to run an engine on water since the internal combustion engine has been around,. That’s not what this is. Think of this cell as a fuel booster. The average diesel engine only uses about 25% of the chemical energy in diesel fuel. Gasoline engines are even less efficient.

Adding HHO gas to the air/fuel mix greatly increases the fuel efficiency of an internal combustion engine. It allows more of the fuel to be burned. Folks were experimenting with this by ww1. In ww2 the British mounted these cells in tanks used in N. Africa (Sahara desert). Fuel was difficult to haul across the desert.

The reason this will not help modern computerized vehicles… The pesky O2 sensors in a vehicle exhaust system. HHO will greatly increase the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. A vehicle computer tries to correct what it sees as an incorrect exhaust mixture. It increases the richness of the air/fuel mix offsetting any advantages gained…

But an old school engine without a computer, HHO works great. I ran this gas in several vehicles and tractors. I got a 35% increase of fuel efficiency on an old perkins diesel engine (ford tractor).

Anyway, I included a pdf of a wet cell design called a “Smacks Booster”. If anyone wants to play around with it… This cell design has flaws, the biggest being thermal. It produces way to much heat for continuous use. About 30 minutes drive time in a truck with a 5L engine. There are many other cell designs, the main one being a dry cell design, see last pic.

WARNING – DANGER – HHO, it explodes violently! They use a hydrogen and oxygen mix in the old Saturn 5 rocket boosters for example.

1 cup of this H H O gas is enough volume to KILL you from the resulting shockwave after explosion. And will cause permanent hearing damage, if you live. I can attest to the fact only a little HHO creates a very large explosion. It goes boom! Very loudly! An extremely well ventilated work area is recommended.

---------------------------

HYDROGEN, OXYGEN and the H H O mixture of the two, obtained from electrolyzing water are EXTREMELY EXPLOSIVE and DANGEROUS gasses. BE CAREFUL!

1) Do not use glass as a container for holding/creating/piping this gas vapor. (glass makes nasty shrapnel)

2) HHO is very static sensitive and will ignite given the opportunity. Always handle it as if it is about to explode. In other words... Never handle it or try to store it, unless you have very expensive equipment... I'm sure NASA has some laying around.

3) Any spark will ignite HHO, if electrodes are close enough to touch, make sure they are always submerged in water. Connect wires to the electrodes at the bottom of your container. Do not use aluminum connectors to electrodes. Always use stainless steel of 304 or 316 grade

4) A BUBBLER with a pop off cap must always be used when producing HHO. A bubbler is the most basic form of safety for you and your equipment. Do not even begin to experiment without one.

5) Do not attempt to ignite the HHO from the end of the output hose from the cell, it will detonate the bubbler. If no bubbler is used it will detonate the cell. And the shrapnel from the exploding cell will either kill or blind you.

6) Engines are prone to backfiring at anytime. USE A BUBBLER ALWAYS. You can see the bubbler in my pics, 1” diameter hose about 15” tall, very dirty in the pic.

7) Electrolyte – Use pure KOH (Potassium Hydroxide, lye aka caustic soda). It can be obtained from soap making suppliers (or NaOH, Sodium hydroxide). Avoid silly mistakes like using table salt or anything with impurities. (impurities add variables to the process, some can be dangerous).

Also, I use a clear acrylic pipe for my test cell, expensive but so I could see what was happening while running.

(One last word about electrolytes... as gas escapes the water in the cell it carries tiny particles of the KOH with it. Very caustic and does nasty things to metal engines. The bubbler acts as a filter (a bong for any pot heads out there). Lastly, and most importantly it isolates the cell from engine backfires. I've seen what a cell explosion does to an engine compartment. It's not pretty!)
-----------------------------

View attachment 81149View attachment 81150View attachment 81151


Dry cell design

View attachment 81152

Damn it! I blew all that money on stainless plumbing and copper plates!

 

[Caribou]

Funny you should post this... some ww2 aircraft had a water injection system into the carb. It boosted power under certain conditions.

Maybe your uncle knew about this..

Here's a clip of a ww2 notice about a P47D Thunderbolt aircraft engine. And the pdf...

View attachment 81173

Funny you should mention the flying. My grandfather started with a WWI surplus biplane. He was a barnstormer, taught ground school for WWII and checked out the check pilots.

 

[Cabin Fever]

Kind of reminds me of an incident back in junior high. Our science teacher passed out test tubes, beakers with water, some wires, and a 9v battery to each of us. We "cracked" water and filled the test tubes with H and O gas. Then, using a wooden match, we lit the gas in the test tube and heard a little "pop."

Well, me and a couple other guys who were in the electronics club had an idea. Lets go down to the electronics lab after school and make a quart of H and O gas! We found a quart glass Coke bottle (back then bulk soda came in 1 quart recyclable glass bottles). Filled the bottle with water and inverted it into a pail of water. Using 50 volts and a couple of wires we filled the bottle with gas. One of us, wearing a welding shield, heavy gloves, and an apron, held a soldering torch over the spout of the bottle and KABOOOMMMM!!!!!

The explosion shook the dust from the iron rafters in the electronics lab (it was in the school's basement). Teachers came running. We blamed it on our science teacher. We got detention for a month.

BTW, the glass bottle did not shatter.

 

[Cabin Fever]

BTW, the power one can obtain from "cracked" water is LESS than the power needed to crack it.

 

[Neb]

BTW, the power one can obtain from "cracked" water is LESS than the power needed to crack it.

So says the laws of thermodynamics.
Ben

 

[Magus]

BTW, the power one can obtain from "cracked" water is LESS than the power needed to crack it.

Tell me more. I worked on that damn overpriced Hydrogen motor for two years before I turned it into a fireworks Mortar.