I woke up today wondering

[Silent Bob]

I am a bit melancholy today, so if your not into reading me "whine" a bit, then you might want to shut this thread down and not comment.

I stopped into see a friend of mine who was hit by an IED in Iraq, traveling one hour to Oklahoma to drop off some necessities and spread some good cheer (yes, a case of his favorite beer, not that he is a drinker, but its the sentiment that counts). He is a double amputee. We met because the local news carried his story and the local charity folks helped him and his family build a home (which I volunteered my limited building experience to the project...just painted walls). They built it with love and now after a few years, the home is completely wheel chair accessible and allows him to have hand rails along critical areas for free mobility. He went back to college and has a good job now.

Today, we asked each other, was it worth it. We see the news of what is happening to Iraq and wonder? Was it worth the loss of American and other nations lives and money spent. I have no problems with Afghanistan, granted, I don't think we needed to spend all the money in nation building to a corrupt and tainted central government, but when we went in, we had purpose. Restrained of course, but with Iraq, we know now that it had nothing to do with WMD's. I've been lied before in the military, I accepted my orders and did my mission. I did my duty to the fullest and tried to show good will to those who were vanquished. However, I am starting to feel like my father and the veterans from Vietnam. I won't go into it any further how I feel personally about it, but I ponder whether it was worth it and the families that lost so much as a result of poor decisions by leadership.

I will always remember my friends who paid the ultimate sacrifice, remember their heroic deeds and each holiday that commemorates America's efforts, I will always remember, like I do each day, I raise my flag in my yard, but their may always be a hint of wonder in my head.

I certainly don't want to give the impression I am not patriotic or anti-government. I certainly have sacrificed enough for our country to at least be able to express myself without someone second guessing my values and dedication. I just have wondered about all the suffering and loss we have experienced, whether, our leaders know what is in the best interest of the American public these days.

How do you feel today?

 

[jontte]

I kinda belive that you are not alone with your thoughts

 

[alabaster]

Man, I feel grateful and insightful today. I am grateful for many blessings from The Good Lord, including our Nation, our freedoms, and the people who are willing to fight for us. Even when the fight isn't something that they believe in or feel was "Worth it". I'm thankful for you, bud. Very thankful, indeed.

It's heartbreaking to hear of such stories, but it's comforting to know that even in all the political madness and what not going on these days, you are able to bond together, look out for each other, and share these discussions. I'm honored that you chose to share such a discussion with us, actually.

My wife and I were talking about this the other day. About Afghanistan(And just about every other nation we've been to war with) that we don't understand rebuilding. Why are we going to war to destroy something that's going to be rebuilt as soon as we leave? We try to build them a decent, free nation, but they don't want that. They are so deeply involved and rooted in their beliefs that there is NOTHING we can do to sway the direction they want to take. Not for long, anyway. As evidenced by Afghanistan, they will always rebound to what THEY want to be, not what WE want them to be. Iraq was a tough situation too, no doubt. I think what we know now about Iraq has change most American's minds on that war. I would imagine most people in other countries feel the same, too. I don't understand how our Country spent so much time, money, effort, and LIVES trying to not only get Saddam and remove the Bath(SP?) party, but also changing a nation into something that they don't want to be... It's not as if this was all done on a video game, or on a movie screen in Hollywood. This was done by REAL people with REAL lives. Forget the money... The LIVES!

It's honorable that our military is willing to take orders and fight the fight that many are too afraid to even think about. It's honorable that you all are willing to risk life and limb to preserve our Nation and it's way of life. All of the things that we love and enjoy everyday could be snatched out from under us if we didn't have so many brave troops willing to make that sacrifice. God bless you all for being so selfless and for standing up when it would be so much easier to do something else. I'm sorry for the time you lost being overseas away from your families. I'm sorry for the mental, physical, and emotional trauma that you all have endured for the sake of defending the free world. I pray that you all know how many of us appreciate you, and that you can find peace in your lives.

Thanks for this post and thanks for your service.

 

[QuietH3art]

As founder of a service dog organization that I founded strictly to help our disabled veterans, I'm right there with you, Bob. I've met so many amazing young men and women who have lost so much because of Iraq and Afghanistan. And I sit here like I'm sure so many other Americans do and wonder: If our NSA can spy on us to the point where they have all of our emails, can watch us through our own computers, can track us by our cell phones... why did we put so many troops in harms way? It's all politics and I do wish our current military would simply say "Enough." Enough lives and limbs lost. Enough families torn apart.

 

[Silent Bob]

Man, I feel grateful and insightful today. I am grateful for many blessings from The Good Lord, including our Nation, our freedoms, and the people who are willing to fight for us. Even when the fight isn't something that they believe in or feel was "Worth it". I'm thankful for you, bud. Very thankful, indeed.

It's heartbreaking to hear of such stories, but it's comforting to know that even in all the political madness and what not going on these days, you are able to bond together, look out for each other, and share these discussions. I'm honored that you chose to share such a discussion with us, actually.

It's honorable that our military is willing to take orders and fight the fight that many are too afraid to even think about. It's honorable that you all are willing to risk life and limb to preserve our Nation and it's way of life. All of the things that we love and enjoy everyday could be snatched out from under us if we didn't have so many brave troops willing to make that sacrifice. God bless you all for being so selfless and for standing up when it would be so much easier to do something else. I'm sorry for the time you lost being overseas away from your families. I'm sorry for the mental, physical, and emotional trauma that you all have endured for the sake of defending the free world. I pray that you all know how many of us appreciate you, and that you can find peace in your lives.

Thanks for this post and thanks for your service.

Thanks all for the wishes. Certainly, I've thought greatly today about our discussion and what I explored with all of you on the forum. LW, regardless of the sacrifices, my friend and I agreed that we swore an oath, for better for worse, we swore that we would defend the Constitution and the officers appointed over us to defend our great nation. Its been a while since I swore that oath, but I do have it committed to memory and believe as I did then, that my oath is my bond to our great nation, regardless of the sacrifices and hardships.

I, my god given name, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Some who know me in the forum, also know that honor, duty and country are not mere words to me, these simple words have guided me since my father uttered them to me as a 7 year old and gave me strength in the most trying times. The word "Honor" has more meaning to me culturally than most Americans, because of my Japanese heritage and culturally the impact of atonement if I should fail to honor these values. I know it is very hard for some to not understand the turmoil that most veterans feel about this simple passage, it is what guides us, other than our faith in god, our family and our nation. At one time, our nation was guided by former military men or at least those that served in some capacity within the military, every time they made those challenging decisions, I am sure they prayed that that our savior had guided them to the righteously. I do wonder these days, as so many of our leaders have never sworn an oath in uniform, what they think, when they make these difficult choice.

You should know that I have no regrets in my heart, I would certainly take the oath if my nation were threatened again. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. Respectfully yours.

 

[QuietH3art]

Bob, as a military spouse for 32 years, I know that oath. There comes a time when the only enemy is domestic - our own government conspiring against it's people. How do you reconcile that you're sworn to obey the president when the president is the enemy.

 

[Silent Bob]

Bob, as a military spouse for 32 years, I know that oath. There comes a time when the only enemy is domestic - our own government conspiring against it's people. How do you reconcile that you're sworn to obey the president when the president is the enemy.

I believe I did, LW.

 

[QuietH3art]

I believe I did, LW.

I read back over it, but I'm missing it, Bob. No offense is intended. I know how hard it has been for my ex to reconcile his feelings on this. My question was more rhetorical than a request for more intimate knowledge of what goes on in your mind. I wish some of our honorable veterans would step to the forefront to bring our country back to what it was intended to be.
In the meantime, I am trying to be optimistic and look at the possibility for conservatives to take back the Senate, a conservative in the White House to reverse some of Obama's mess (although that's going to be a major chore) and I see movements like "Term Limits for Congress" and similar organizations trying to work within the system to fix the system.
As a former spouse, I can tell you that back in Desert Storm, most of the spouses were saying "just make a glass lake of the place and get it over with."

 

[Graynomad]

I hope I'm not speaking out of place here as I'm not American and never served (although I did nearly sign up during Nam) but I see this line coming first and as being the core of the oath.

I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

It seems to me that the Constitution should come first and all the other guys next as long as they are not contradicting the Constitution. Trouble is there will be grey areas because things can be interpreted different ways.

 

[Paladin]

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages. ~William Shakespeare~

I like that quote, We all have our roles to play. What might be mundane, or sorrowful in lifes happenings may be merely to set the stage for our next act. Ripples and what not. History and its interpretation is all that truly matters.

 

[Gazrok]

Iraq was never about WMDs. It was all about keeping Saddam from getting other OPEC members to go off the petro dollar and securing US friendly natural gas pathways. Same thing happened in Libya, Syria, Egypt, etc. I think they got the message pretty well. You may have been lied to (we all were), but still no doubt that had we not gone in there, we'd be in MUCH rougher shape economic wise. Sure, I wish they would have been a bit more on the up and up, but kind of difficult to just tell us without telling the world why you're really doing it.

We weren't even that subtle in Libya, Egypt, or Syria, and yet it still worked. The spies don't even have to be GOOD anymore....wow. Would be interesting to see the behind the doors deals with Russia over Syria and the Ukraine, both of which were EXCLUSIVELY all about natural gas access. The whole terrorism Jihad thing is real enough (those groups hate each other, because they've been coerced into it for ages), but it's really just fanning the flames for background noise.

We did the same thing in Iran, back in the day. Backed them when they were our buddies for our interests, then when the people rose up against the Shah, we switched sides and backed Iran's enemy. We flip-flop like that in the Middle East, just to keep up the fire, all the while ensuring our true financial interests are protected. At least Saudi Arabia is a good player of the game. So far, they've managed to correctly swing this way and that with the winds of war. Of course, their oil barons are all buddy buddy with ours, so not too surprising.

 

[jontte]

aaah,the old money talks game

 

[Silent Earth]

Over here we believe Iraq was staged to keep GWBs oil and weapons company buddies with blossoming profits, that's why quite a few Brits now call the US the United states of Haliburton. As for OUR leader at the time Tony Blair , well there is still a growing clamour for him to be impeached and for war crimes and treason charges to be brought against him for his lies about WMD, 45 minutes etc.

 

[Silent Earth]

Post cold war conflicts have NOTHING to do with protecting the American / British people and everything to do with keeping Exxon, Haliburton , GEC etc making lots of money. And of course its got the added bonus of when some pissed Islamist retaliates in the US it feeds insecurities that are often resolved by good American folks with a trip to buy a new rifle.

 

[jontte]

very seldom does the politicians pay the prize,it seems to be reserved for the common soldier be he or she army,marine,para or any branch who's there

 

[jontte]

but do you actually belive that you will get T.Blair to court and yet convicted??

 

[Silent Earth]

Not unless UKIP get in power.

 

[Silent Earth]

Tony Blair and George Dubya Bush would be perfectly content fighting to the very last drop of YOUR childrens blood was spilled on a battles in a pointless conflict, there own offspring naturally are never seen anywhere near the front line.

 

[Maverick]

Are wars worth the bloodshed? answer is no but and yes there is a but, sometimes wars need to be fought and iraq and afghanistan was never never a reason to shed blood, WWI/WWII where good reasons, our allies attacked are good reasons, our country attacked are good reasons, wars generally create bigger future problems WWI being an example reason why WWII was considered a continuum of WWI or the 30yr war. I'll leave it with this poem.

A Ranger Died Today

He was getting old and grouchy
and his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion,
telling stories of the past.

Of a war that he had fought in
and the deeds that he had done.
In his exploits with his buddies;
they were heroes, everyone.

And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors,
his tales became old hat,
all his buddies listened,
for they knew whereof he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
for ol' Lou has passed away,
and the world's a little poorer,
for a Ranger died today.

No, he won't be mourned by many,
just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
quietly going on his way;
and the world won't note his passing;
'tho a Ranger died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
their bodies lie in state,
while thousands note their passing
and proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories,
from the time that they were young,
but the passing of a Ranger,
goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution,
to the welfare of our land,
some jerk who breaks his promise
and cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow,
who in times of war and strife,
goes off to serve his Country
and offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
and the style in which he lives,
are sometimes disproportionate,
to the service he gives.

While the ordinary Ranger,
who offered up his all,
is paid off with a medal
and perhaps a pension, small.

It's so easy to forget them,
for it is so long ago,
that our Lou's and Tom's and Johnny's,
went to battle, but we know.

It was not the politicians,
with their compromise and ploys,
who won for us the freedom,
that our Country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
with your enemies at hand,
would you really want some cop-out,
with his ever waffling stand?

Or would you want a Ranger,
who has sworn to defend,
his home, his kin, and Country,
and would fight until the end?

He was just a common Ranger
and his ranks are growing thin,
but his presence should remind us,
we may need his like again.

For when countries are in conflict,
then we find the Ranger's part,
Is to clean up all the tousles,
that the politicians start.

If we cannot do him honor,
while he's here to hear the praise,
then at least let's give him homage,
at the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline,
in the paper that might say:

OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
FOR A RANGER DIED TODAY.

 

[QuietH3art]

Did you write that Maverick? It's heart-wrenching.

 

[Graynomad]

What a great poem, reminds me of my Dad.

You know just yesterday I was walking past a public building in town and there was a plaque to some Lord Mayor who laid a stone in 1887, and I thought WTHeck did he do to be remembered like that, apart from (probably) sweat talking enough people to get into office and then using it to his advantage.

 

[Brent S]

Man, I feel grateful and insightful today. I am grateful for many blessings from The Good Lord, including our Nation, our freedoms, and the people who are willing to fight for us. Even when the fight isn't something that they believe in or feel was "Worth it". I'm thankful for you, bud. Very thankful, indeed.

It's heartbreaking to hear of such stories, but it's comforting to know that even in all the political madness and what not going on these days, you are able to bond together, look out for each other, and share these discussions. I'm honored that you chose to share such a discussion with us, actually.

My wife and I were talking about this the other day. About Afghanistan(And just about every other nation we've been to war with) that we don't understand rebuilding. Why are we going to war to destroy something that's going to be rebuilt as soon as we leave? We try to build them a decent, free nation, but they don't want that. They are so deeply involved and rooted in their beliefs that there is NOTHING we can do to sway the direction they want to take. Not for long, anyway. As evidenced by Afghanistan, they will always rebound to what THEY want to be, not what WE want them to be. Iraq was a tough situation too, no doubt. I think what we know now about Iraq has change most American's minds on that war. I would imagine most people in other countries feel the same, too. I don't understand how our Country spent so much time, money, effort, and LIVES trying to not only get Saddam and remove the Bath(SP?) party, but also changing a nation into something that they don't want to be... It's not as if this was all done on a video game, or on a movie screen in Hollywood. This was done by REAL people with REAL lives. Forget the money... The LIVES!

It's honorable that our military is willing to take orders and fight the fight that many are too afraid to even think about. It's honorable that you all are willing to risk life and limb to preserve our Nation and it's way of life. All of the things that we love and enjoy everyday could be snatched out from under us if we didn't have so many brave troops willing to make that sacrifice. God bless you all for being so selfless and for standing up when it would be so much easier to do something else. I'm sorry for the time you lost being overseas away from your families. I'm sorry for the mental, physical, and emotional trauma that you all have endured for the sake of defending the free world. I pray that you all know how many of us appreciate you, and that you can find peace in your lives.

Thanks for this post and thanks for your service.

Very well said alabaster.

 

[Maverick]

Did you write that Maverick? It's heart-wrenching.

No, it is from an unknown written some time ago

 

[Gazrok]

Note, I said American interests, not Americans, hehe...

EVERY war, even the Crusades, etc., is fought for the control of resources (money). Period. Most think the Crusades were about retaking the holy lands. Nope, they were about the control of trade routes. Religion (like WMDs) was simply used to get the populace on board for the program.

 

[Maverick]

Note, I said American interests, not Americans, hehe...

EVERY war, even the Crusades, etc., is fought for the control of resources (money). Period. Most think the Crusades were about retaking the holy lands. Nope, they were about the control of trade routes. Religion (like WMDs) was simply used to get the populace on board for the program.

Exactly right,

In the beginning wars start as greed and or control and in some cases to settle old scores that in reality is world dominance such as hitler quest of WWII forcing Nations to pick sides, the Crusades was never for righteousness reasons in fact much of the problems we face today is of a direct response to the Crusades, Christians Jews and Muslims lived in peace in the Holy Land before the Church got involved!

 

[Silent Bob]

Are wars worth the bloodshed? answer is no but and yes there is a but, sometimes wars need to be fought and iraq and afghanistan was never never a reason to shed blood, WWI/WWII where good reasons, our allies attacked are good reasons, our country attacked are good reasons, wars generally create bigger future problems WWI being an example reason why WWII was considered a continuum of WWI or the 30yr war. I'll leave it with this poem.

A Ranger Died Today

He was getting old and grouchy
and his hair was falling fast,
And he sat around the Legion,
telling stories of the past.

Of a war that he had fought in
and the deeds that he had done.
In his exploits with his buddies;
they were heroes, everyone.

And 'tho sometimes, to his neighbors,
his tales became old hat,
all his buddies listened,
for they knew whereof he spoke.

But we'll hear his tales no longer,
for ol' Lou has passed away,
and the world's a little poorer,
for a Ranger died today.

No, he won't be mourned by many,
just his children and his wife.
For he lived an ordinary,
very quiet sort of life.

He held a job and raised a family,
quietly going on his way;
and the world won't note his passing;
'tho a Ranger died today.

When politicians leave this earth,
their bodies lie in state,
while thousands note their passing
and proclaim that they were great.

Papers tell of their life stories,
from the time that they were young,
but the passing of a Ranger,
goes unnoticed, and unsung.

Is the greatest contribution,
to the welfare of our land,
some jerk who breaks his promise
and cons his fellow man?

Or the ordinary fellow,
who in times of war and strife,
goes off to serve his Country
and offers up his life?

The politician's stipend
and the style in which he lives,
are sometimes disproportionate,
to the service he gives.

While the ordinary Ranger,
who offered up his all,
is paid off with a medal
and perhaps a pension, small.

It's so easy to forget them,
for it is so long ago,
that our Lou's and Tom's and Johnny's,
went to battle, but we know.

It was not the politicians,
with their compromise and ploys,
who won for us the freedom,
that our Country now enjoys.

Should you find yourself in danger,
with your enemies at hand,
would you really want some cop-out,
with his ever waffling stand?

Or would you want a Ranger,
who has sworn to defend,
his home, his kin, and Country,
and would fight until the end?

He was just a common Ranger
and his ranks are growing thin,
but his presence should remind us,
we may need his like again.

For when countries are in conflict,
then we find the Ranger's part,
Is to clean up all the tousles,
that the politicians start.

If we cannot do him honor,
while he's here to hear the praise,
then at least let's give him homage,
at the ending of his days.

Perhaps just a simple headline,
in the paper that might say:

OUR COUNTRY IS IN MOURNING,
FOR A RANGER DIED TODAY.

Very nice Maverick. Thank you for posting it. Ranger's Lead the Way!

 

[Maverick]

Very nice Maverick. Thank you for posting it. Ranger's Lead the Way!

All the way!

 

[jontte]

That was and is a great poem,thanks for takeing time to post it here.

 

[Brent S]

I'm not a poetry fan, never completely 'got it', but that was the first that I really enjoyed, and felt.

 

[Jammyamerica]

Love it...