My Ensuite Bathroom Reno- Project #2

[zannej]

When we first moved in, this bathroom had been remodeled to have carpet (why????!). The original toilet had been where the vanity is now (I know because they didn't remove the old closet flange but it's no longer attached to the plumbing). The lavatory has chrome plated S-trap which is going to be a major pain to do. The idiots installed the toilet on top of the carpet so when I removed the toilet after a major overflow from the septic tank (tenants lied & claimed they had just had it sucked out- plumber said it hadn't been sucked out in 9 years). The vanity was installed on top of the nasty carpet too. It was a disgusting mess to remove. The floor under the toilet was the consistency of mud. Fortunately, there was a moisture barrier under the top layer of plywood. I chiseled out and removed the top layer and replaced it with luan (sp?) but it wasn't quite the same size as the old plywood so there was a ridge. I tried wood putty but that didn't work. I decided to try leveling mix-- clerk at the store said it was self-leveling but I should have read the box. I also should have checked the date because it was expired. My friend was helping me & even though I said we shouldn't continue when I saw the chunks/lumps, he said it would be fine & poured it-- turned out horrible. Sharp bumpy points all over & it wouldn't level. We had used the additive with it so it set up hard. I tried chiseling, sanding, hammering, etc... It was too sturdy. Eventually I got an angle grinder & my friend used it to reduce the bumps & we poured new mix. Did a smaller batch this time and it went on better, but the floor looks like the surface of the moon. I still need to finish it but have been procrastinating. I keep worrying I'll screw it up again.
After returning from a stint overseas, we had the carpet replaced with cheap linoleum that tore. I have since purchased new sheet vinyl and cut it to fit, but need to fix the floor underneath to make it smooth.
To Do List:
*Finish leveling/smoothing out floor around closet flange
*Secure sheet vinyl (already purchased & cut) w/ acrylic tape- perimeter sealing
*Open up wall behind where toilet will go to access possible vent spotted under the house (but not protruding through roof so either terminates in the wall or in the attic)
*Replace metal S-trap with tubular PVC- go to 1-1/2" size & run trap arm out side wall to run vent outside
*Replace metal window with energy efficient vinyl window
*Finish putting hardware (already purchased) on cabinet doors & fix problem w/ door falling off
*Install beadboard wainscoting around toilet area
*Install baseboard, cove molding, corner blocks, etc
*Install threshold/transition from carpet to vinyl at door
*Install toilet (Toto Drake- already purchased)
*Install shattaf sprayer next to toilet (already purchased)
*Replace vent/light/heat unit in ceiling w/ working unit
*Add rocker switch & change out GFCI for newer near vanity
*Run wiring for vanity light
*Install vanity light (already purchased)
*Cut out hole for storage in wall & build out frame to make a built-in medicine cabinet (have mirror & trim to make a mirrored door)
*Install new faucet & pop up drain
*Change tub drain to direct drain, have 2" P-trap, & merge w/ vent inside wall
*Repair large scrape in porcelain on cast iron tub
*Replace tub spout & shower trim + valve
*Replace showertub surround (thinking one of the Delta direct-to-stud surrounds)
*Install new showerhead, flange, & shower arm
*Install new shower curtain rod & shower curtain
*Install towel bars, towel ring, & tp holder
*Resize and paint small wooden wheels to use as escutcheons for knobs on chest of drawers
*Remove ceiling tiles and paint ceiling boards or put up something different on the ceiling (have some peel & stick floor tiles that might work with extra glue)
*Repair cut joist under tub-- sister it up and fill hole

 

[zannej]

I forgot we'd already replaced the carpet when the septic tank backed up-- but the carpet was still nasty before we pulled it.
I didn't get a picture before we pulled the toilet but I got some shortly after.
Carpet underneath where toilet used to be:

Botched floor leveling:

Partially repaired

Sheet vinyl loosely in place (was too bumpy underneath still

Room sketches (including adjacent bathroom)

Rough sketch of room from 1st person pov. I forgot to update for single handle trim (tub levers & spout kinda look like a duck face)

 

[zoomzoom]

For your floor, you should get and apply SKIMCOAT. Any imperfection, even smaller than a BB will come back to haunt you.
Here's the product link but it's available at most box stores.
https://www.floorprep.com/product/white-skimcoat/
Not really understanding how you're venting things. Myself, I'd definitely run it outdoors. Isn't there a vent already? It doesn't need to be right at the bathroom. 1 vent for the entire house is normally adequate.

I wouldn't recommend floor tiles on the ceiling. Even with extra adhesive, I'm betting they'll still fall off.

 

[zannej]

Here is a picture of the cut joist. I thought it was just notched for the tub's trap until I crawled under further and took a closer look (sans camera)- poor thing is cut all the way through.

This is my tub:

This is my doorway (forgot I want to paint the door or replace it)

Soap dispenser:

Cup holder:

Towel bar:

Towel ring:

TP holder:

Vanity after removing some of the hardware but before painting:

 

[zannej]

For your floor, you should get and apply SKIMCOAT. Any imperfection, even smaller than a BB will come back to haunt you.
Here's the product link but it's available at most box stores.
https://www.floorprep.com/product/white-skimcoat/
Not really understanding how you're venting things. Myself, I'd definitely run it outdoors. Isn't there a vent already? It doesn't need to be right at the bathroom. 1 vent for the entire house is normally adequate.

I wouldn't recommend floor tiles on the ceiling. Even with extra adhesive, I'm betting they'll still fall off.

Thanks, ZoomZoom!
Would Henry 549 skimcoat work? I didn't see the other stuff listed on lowes or HD.
There are no actual vents for anything in the bathroom, but when I was looking at the plumbing under the house, I noticed what I think might be a derelict vent. If I can find where it terminates, I might be able to run it through the roof & put a roof boot on it.
Here's the plumbing under the house-- B2 is my mother's ensuite. My bathroom is listed as B3.
I want to slap whoever did this plumbing.

 

[zoomzoom]

Yea, that brand of skimcoat should work fine. They're all pretty much the same thing.

What you listed as "B2 old vent" looks to be in the right location but it's unusually large. Using B2 and B3 toilet pipes as a reference, would "B2 old vent" go up through a wall? Assuming a 1-story home and "B2 old vent" is in the wall, that would be a good starting point to confirm it's a vent. Climb into the attic and see what you have. When you go through the roof, make sure the pipe is taller than the peak of your roof. If it isn't, any wind that crosses your roof line will swirl due to the pitch and a sewer smell will exist when you're outside.

 

[zannej]

Yea, that brand of skimcoat should work fine. They're all pretty much the same thing.

What you listed as "B2 old vent" looks to be in the right location but it's unusually large. Using B2 and B3 toilet pipes as a reference, would "B2 old vent" go up through a wall? Assuming a 1-story home and "B2 old vent" is in the wall, that would be a good starting point to confirm it's a vent. Climb into the attic and see what you have. When you go through the roof, make sure the pipe is taller than the peak of your roof. If it isn't, any wind that crosses your roof line will swirl due to the pitch and a sewer smell will exist when you're outside.

I originally thought the B2 vent was the toilet's drain, but when I looked at the underside of the floor and the distances, I realized it wasn't far enough away from where the wall would be so it couldn't be the drain. Not sure why it's so huge. My fat behind can't get into the attic but my skinny friend can. I just have to get the ladder set up for him to check. Need to find a good time for him to do that but he's waiting on getting his car fixed right now. I believe the pipe needs to be at least 24" above the top of the roof if I'm remembering code correctly.

 

[Sentry18]

I had no idea people lived in places where they set houses on little concrete pillars. Without a basement where do you put all of your gun safes and ammo!?

 

[zoomzoom]

What's the diameter of that possible vent pipe? If it's a 4" pipe, it's not going to fit between standard 3 1/2" studs.

BTW - Have you measured from the toilet flange (that part in the floor to the wall)? The distance will dictate what type of toilet you can put there. If your new toilet is still in the box, the measurement requirements are normally on the outside of the box. The flange you pictured looks awfully close to the wall for a standard toilet.

 

[SheepDog]

Next to your computer without the safe. I feel very safe surrounded by handguns and rifles in my little computer fortress...
Maybe not but there is always a closet or shop or spare room that can serve well.

 

[Peanut]

Here is a picture of the cut joist. I thought it was just notched for the tub's trap until I crawled under further and took a closer look (sans camera)- poor thing is cut all the way through. View attachment 35866

Those joists look like rough cut 2x10's or 12's but still... what are the centers on (spacing). They look pretty far apart in the photos. I'd think about adding a few, like under the fridge, freezer, hot water heater, tub or any place there is a lot of weight.

(just ignore the yankee, he doesn't know that in the coastal plain a basement is just as often called an indoor pool) .

 

[zannej]

My house is 100ft above sea level but when they were digging for my new septic tank they almost hit water. If they had tried to dig a basement, they would have hit the waterline. Most of the places around me are below sea level but my house is on higher ground. I'm not going to say online where I keep my firearms and ammo, but I have plenty of space. (trees with X are gone-- barn is also totaled from one of the timber company's trees, but workshop is still there).

I think the possible vent pipe is 3" but I can't tell without getting calipers on it. It must be small enough to fit in the wall and I believe my walls are 3.75" thick or thereabouts. I believe the old toilet had a 12" rough-in & so does new one. Worst case, there are offset flanges. I can measure to be certain. It looks about the same distance as the flange in the adjacent bathroom & it's 12". It might be the angle.

I'll have to measure, but I think the joists are 24" apart. Water heater is not on the floor, it's on a raised platform in the hallway over the compartment where the air conditioner circulates air. Water heater is on the projects list bc t&p valve is not hooked up properly. We did reinforce supports underneath it at least, but need to fix the horrible relief piping for it & add shutoffs to the lines going & and out of it on top. The hallway & the bedrooms and bathrooms were added later so I think the water heater was originally on the outside of the house before changes were made, but I could be wrong. From what I understand, this started out as a 1-bedroom house.

I need to figure out how to scan my father's drawings before they fade more. He had measurements of other rooms that he took when planning some upgrades when we first moved in. He changed up the kitchen quite a bit from the way it was originally.
This bathroom of mine hasn't had too much done to it. Used to have a printed plywood panel for the back wall of the shower. It was white with blue -- some kind of scenery with a duck. It was destroyed when we came back. Whoever put it there didn't think about moisture, but they also put in carpet so....

 

[Peanut]

24 inch centers should be plenty for rough cut 2x 10's or 12's especially if they are cypress.

A cousin of mine had some old blueprints scanned at a professional printing company a few years ago.

Fedex office printing, Kinkos or places like that couldn't help him. He went to an old school professional printer where they print signs, large and small, professional quality. I had business cards and flyers printed last year at the same shop. They actually employ graphic designers who designed what I wanted. The quality was off the charts compared to the work done at office supply stores. I paid $$ for that quality but it was worth it for me.

Anyway, the same equipment they use for making large professional signs can scan just about anything you have.

 

[Frodo]

Build a 'box' around the cut joist
and support both ends of the cut joist with blocks
the floor will dip in this spot

damn ugly plumbing, vertical san tees used in the horizontal [illegal]
they need to be combination wye and 1/8th bend

 

[Frodo]

I had no idea people lived in places where they set houses on little concrete pillars. Without a basement where do you put all of your gun safes and ammo!?

because of what is called yazoo clay, the ground pumps up and down.
building a house on blocks makes it easy to jack up and level when the ground shifts.
a slab foundation gets real expensive to jack up.

 

[Sentry18]

because of what is called yazoo clay, the ground pumps up and down.
building a house on blocks makes it easy to jack up and level when the ground shifts.
a slab foundation gets real expensive to jack up.

Weird. Doesn't sound like a place houses should be built to me. Then again sometimes we have to use dynamite to blow holes in the ground/rock so we can put in basements.

 

[Frodo]

very rare

Weird. Doesn't sound like a place houses should be built to me. Then again sometimes we have to use dynamite to blow holes in the ground/rock so we can put in basements.

very rare in this area to have a basement.

could be because we are close to sea level 305' at my home
water is a concern

 

[havasu]

I envy all of you who have a basement. I haven't seen one in years.

 

[Frodo]

I envy all of you who have a basement. I haven't seen one in years.

They are scary, that is where he ghost always hides.

 

[Amish Heart]

Ha. I love our basement. It's clean and it's a little store. Although no one else likes to go down there, and I don't care. It's also nice and cool in the summer.

 

[havasu]

I'd have me one heck of a wine cellar if I had a basement.

 

[zannej]

Build a 'box' around the cut joist
and support both ends of the cut joist with blocks
the floor will dip in this spot



View attachment 35963

damn ugly plumbing, vertical san tees used in the horizontal [illegal]
they need to be combination wye and 1/8th bend

View attachment 35964

The joist box was the plan-- although I still want to put something inside that gap to fill it up (since I'll be switching to a direct drain). I also want to put something on either side of it to make sort of a filler sandwich as well as doing the joist box. Wish I had a time machine to go back and throat-punch whoever cut that joist.
I had noted that the tees were a code violation. I got shade from the owner of a local hardware store for explaining that a tee can't be used on their backs like that (he was trying to sell my friend a tee). Dude gave me major stink-eye every time after that-- stopped going to his shop & go to the one that stays open later & the owner is nice to me and asks me questions about plumbing code rules & told some of his buddies that I knew my stuff when it came to plumbing (Thanks for the free lessons, Frodo!).
The one you have marked as "terlet" is the suspected vent pipe. The toilet is the one on top of the tee it connects to. The drain from the 1st illegal fitting is toilet in B3, then that terlet one is inside the wall & the pipe to the right of it (2nd illegal fitting) is the toilet for B2. It's a complete clusterf****.

I miss having a basement. We had one in Virginia. It was supposed to be a half basement (only under half of the house) but builders screwed up and dug out the wrong side. They asked for permission to flip the plan but were told "no" so it ended up with a full basement. There was a workshop, a main room with a sliding glass door to outside (was built on a hill so looked 2 stories from front and 3 stories from back) and an entertainment room where we had a pool table. I spent a lot of time in that basement. It's pretty much the only part of the house I remember. LOL. Look up 9363 Birchwood Ct Manassas VA. They added some sort of gazebo and changed the back stairs so it looks really neat.

 

[zannej]

I measured from the wall to the center of the closet flange-- it's a just shy of 12" rough-in. Like it's 11-7/8". The old toilet touched the wall slightly. When I change out the plumbing below, the flange should have enough wiggle room to bump forward a fraction if need be. I'm going to see if I can tie in to that vent that the other toilet goes to. Gonna see if my friend can poke around in the attic before it gets too hot.

Hey, @Frodo, What do you think of this?

I could have a combo wye under B3 toilet so there would be a cleanout on the end (or would you recommend an extended closet bend instead?)
It can't connect to the vent on top of that support beam but it can go just below it snugly if I move that waterline out of the way & possibly move the drain for the AC- Could also set up a different drainage system for AC-- planter pot with rocks or something.
I'd flip the layout for the B2 toilet and it's vent since it was done incorrectly- so there would be a bend & then it would go to the tee. Tee for B3 would be just below it (unless they sell a combo tee with an inlet that would be at the proper angle-- although bends could be used to accomplish it if need be, but I prefer to keep a straight run if possible). B3 would be wet-vented but it's better than no vent at all. The merged pipe would then connect to the soil pipe branch w/ a combo wye w/ a cleanout just in case.

Looking at the reducing fitting from the B3 closet flange, looks like I've got 4" pipe?

Right now the ground under the house is eroding and undermining the house's supports so we're going to have to fill it back in or build some sort of retaining setup. I wonder if there's something I can put on the ground underneath on top of the loose sand to make it more convenient to crawl over-- like those sort of foam squares you fit together like puzzle pieces almost...

 

[zannej]

I just remembered that I will need to cut my wall open to add branch vents for the shower & tub from both bathrooms so I might as well do a branch vent for my toilet as well. It may be easier to tie them together in the attic, but I'm trying to figure out the best approach. I only want to cut off the bottom part of the wall where I've painted it white so I can drill holes, but I need to figure out how to line it up to get the holes in the right spot in the attic without having to completely remove the wall panels. I've grown a little attached to the blue stripes. Maybe I could cut open the wall panels on the green side for the upper part though, since I intend to paint those panels anyway. Gonna be "fun" sanding those so paint will stick.
More pictures:
Current non-working vent/light/heater (won't go back straight no matter what I try)

Floor & wall perpendicular to tub (across from toilet)

Floor up to doorway (I made the mistake of letting my brother cut while I held the sheet vinyl up so there's a big gap). Shoe molding + baseboard should help

Drawer/cabinet pulls that will be put on

Shower curtain rod

S-trap under the lavatory

Rupert "helping" me by sitting in the bin where I was keeping screws & hardware while working on the cabinets

I was just thinking of something-- since it is very unlikely that the shower in B2 will be used at the same time as the tub in B3, would it be OK to wet vent B2 shower by tying in to the vent for B3 tub? I need to do more drawings... But it would save from putting more pipes & holes. Toilets might both flush at same time so I can still vent them separately & merge the pipes together in the attic.

 

[zoomzoom]

I'm not a plumber. Why do you need so many vents? I own a couple houses and each only has a single vent.

 

[Peanut]

I'm not a hvac guy, even worse with flooring... eager to see some expertise.

 

[zannej]

I'm not a plumber. Why do you need so many vents? I own a couple houses and each only has a single vent.

Editing to add: Many houses appear to only have a single vent gong out through the roof-- that is the main vent. You will likely only see one roof penetration but inside the walls & attic/crawlspace there should be branch vents connecting to that one vent. I have a metal roof & my main vent is in such a location that it is not ideal for connecting branch vents. It would require running pipes through studs and/or through the attic in long runs & there would have to be a slope so they can't be straight horizontal & they can't slope down toward the main vent- they must slope upward.

Frodo could probably cite the exact verbiage or show you the code, but every fixture needs to be vented by code. The reason is, you need both positive and negative air pressure in the pipes to allow the water to flow. There needs to be air ahead of the water where it is running, but also behind it to avoid creating a vacuum that locks it in. Simple example of creating a vacuum is to take a straw, dip it in a glass of water, hold your thumb over the top and lift the straw up. Because there is no air coming in from the top of the straw, the water will stay in the straw as you have created a vacuum. If you take your thumb off of the straw, the water will flow out. Since P-traps (and toilet traps) hold water and prevent sewer gases from coming back up, they also prevent water from going in. Adding vents to the fixtures is like removing the thumb from the straw. It also helps to prevent the water from the traps from being siphoned out, which can allow sewer gases to flow back in.

The airflow issue is also why trap arms (the pipes prior to the vents) have specific slope & length restrictions. Too short & it creates a crown vent which allows the water to be siphoned out. Too long or too severe a slope & it creates a water seal. The general rule is that the length/drop of a trap arm can not exceed the diameter of the pipe because the trap weir would be blocked. The minimum distance is 2 pipe diameters to avoid the crown vent. So the minimum length of a 2" diameter trap arm is 4" while the maximum will be either 5' or 8' depending on which plumbing code is used in your jurisdiction (more on that later). Generally, pipes must slope at 1/4" per foot- this allows gravity to pull the water & any debris-- if the pipe is straight or sloped upward, then the water will sit there unless something pushes it. Some larger pipes allow 1/8" per foot, but 1/4" is most common. So, a pipe that runs 4' must drop 1". There are also rules on how high a branch vent must be (6" above the flood level of the highest fixture it serves). It's why I don't like windows above kitchen sinks unless the blocking/support for the window starts 8" or more above the sink's flood level.

There are many different plumbing codes but the most common ones are UPC (Universal Plumbing Code) and IPC (International Plumbing Code). There are also some rules applied to plumbing in the IRC (International Residential Code) for building. Most states fall in to one of the two aforementioned codes, although some have their own specific state codes & New Jersey is under NSPC. My state used to have it's own plumbing code but in 2016 they threw it out and reverted to IPC 2012. UPC is more restrictive than IPC in terms of trap arm lengths. Under UPC, the maximum trap arm length of a 2" pipe is 5' but under IPC it is 8' (although some local jurisdictions will restrict it to 6').

If anyone is curious, there's a handy thread that gives rough sizes for pipe diameters as well as slope/length and other useful stuff (like the amount of PEX needed to complete a bend) True sizes for ABS and PVC pipes

I should probably go back and add wall thickness to my cpvc chart at some point. And maybe do a schedule 80 chart too. The charts show why ABS and PVC pipes don't fit together properly (nevermind that even the "universal" cements don't form a solid solvent weld between them).

Somewhere on that forum I also have a thread listing what plumbing codes apply to which states/territories (although it probably needs to be updated).

I forgot to mention, if a fixture has a shared vent where water will go down it from another fixture it is called a "wet vent". That is not ideal for situations where you are likely to be using both fixtures at the same time & there are restrictions on what fixture can be upstream or downstream. Frodo mentioned suds relief with washing machines in another thread-- since washers create suds, it is best to have them downstream of other fixtures so the suds don't end up getting pushed in to toilets, baths, and sinks.

This has been my Ted talk.

 

[zannej]

Found the link to the vanity light I got for under $50 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002JUNKG/
Trying to plan out how I'm going to do the electrical for it. Might be able to splice off of the GFCI outlet & add another switch next to it-- replace the single gang with double gang box & add a rocker switch, then run the power to the light-- wires can go through corner stud and up inside the wall. I plan to cut it open for an in-wall medicine cabinet, which should give me some access for wires. Might see if I can possibly pull the wall panels down without breaking them-- need to take off the fugly ceiling trim which is rough wood.

 

[zannej]

I've been thinking about this again, even though the back door project has moved to be more urgent (after cleaning up the kitchen & locking out raccoons).
I'm thinking the pulling the whole wall panel idea may be the way to go. If I break it, I will have to patch & paint the wall panels. I have wainscoting for the bottom half to cover the ugliness on the floor. I may have to forego any base molding or have it go around the toilet in case it gets in the way of the toilet's base. I'll have to do a dry fit or install any trim after the toilet is put in.

A thread on the plumbing forums got me thinking about the configuration of the tub drain. I believe my tub's drain is above the floor because I didn't see any piping other than the trap under the overflow when I was under there. I'm trying to figure out what pieces I would need for a direct drain in that situation.

@Frodo linked a half overflow kit for a direct drain that looked interesting. I was also thinking of making my own to allow for the drain to go lower if need be for any reason.

So, something like:
Danco Tub Shoe drain (is that gasket used instead of plumber's putty on top of the tub? Mfr seems to suggest that in questions)
Watco strainer grid & plug from Lowes or this one from HD (if it works with that style drain-- may need to find a watco drain)
Danco flat tub shoe gasket (for under the tub)
Fitting for overflow (can't find it alone online but have seen it in the store)
Gasket for the overflow
Watco overflow cover plate (I like that it hides the screws)
1-1/2" sch 40 PVC pipe to bridge fittings
1-1/2" DWV elbow to go from overflow to tub drain
OR
1-1/2" combo wye with cleanout & plug (or see if I can find a kit that has both parts for cleanout)
1-1/2" sanitary tee followed by more straight pipe for trap arm & another of the same size tee for the branch vent

I will still need another wye to connect to the main pipes but will need either a 1-1/2" to 3" (possibly 4") or some bushings/adapters to transition.

I'm leaning toward 1st configuration w/ a long sweep.
Am I missing any parts? (I would likely use the same or similar configuration for the other bathroom that has a tub as well).

 

[zannej]

I did a sketch. I'm hoping it will inspire me to start working on the floor again when it's not cold as f***. It keeps getting colder than it ever used to get here. It was in the 40s Monday morning when I went to the doctor's office around 8:30am.
As for my sketch, I think I'll go with plan 1 bc I think an extra cleanout would complicate things when I can snake from the tub drain if need be..

I'm thinking of building my own space saver bc the one I got from Walmart is absolute garbage & fell apart before I could even put it up. Doors wouldn't stay on. I think I will take the magnetic clasp for the doors & re-use it in the new unit. I may even use the metal pins as dowels for something.

My latest sketch (I eliminated the vacuum breaker thing bc my handheld sprayer comes with a built-in one). I added an overflow to the tub, did some shading, fixed the tub spout to not look like a duck bill, fixed the toilet to look a little better, & added a custom space saver design. I don't need an overly tall one bc I'm only 5'5" and I have short arms to go with my inordinately short torso.