Waste Vegetable/Animal Oil

[Rayden]

So after quick search I couldn't find anything about WVO. After many hours of google search I couldn't find anything that corresponds to my situation. For experiment i got this canister of used kitchen oil from this one restaurant. But after heating it to about 77F, agitating it and then letting it settle i get this:

So I have FOUR layers of stuff. From internet I saw only two to three layers being settled out (oil, water, food).
In my case it is 4.

Can anyone tell me why this is and how would you go about separating oils from water/food?
I presume that first layer is, oil second layer is food/water, third layer is animal fat that melted from foods being cooked and fourth layer is again food/water.
But if my assumptions were correct why would there be 2 layers of food/water mixture , why wouldn't they just combine in one layer?

P.S.
Im sorry if this is noob post , I really need someone's help on this.

Thank you guys .

 

[BillMasen]

What are you trying to do?? make bio diesel ??

https://www.thoughtco.com/make-biodiesel-from-vegetable-oil-605975

 

[Rayden]

What are you trying to do?? make bio diesel ??

First things first , I want to see how does WVO behaves, what to actually do with it to purify it.
First I want to filter it and then dewater it. This is my first contact with WVO. So I'm weirded out why i have 4 layers instead usual 2 to 3.



I watched that one and it seems pretty easy. Which I doubt.

 

[DrHenley]

So after quick search I couldn't find anything about WVO. After many hours of google search I couldn't find anything that corresponds to my situation. For experiment i got this canister of used kitchen oil from this one restaurant. But after heating it to about 77F, agitating it and then letting it settle i get this:
View attachment 12082
So I have FOUR layers of stuff. From internet I saw only two to three layers being settled out (oil, water, food).
In my case it is 4.

Can anyone tell me why this

Top layer is primarily oil.
Second layer is an emulsion of oil and water with some sediment entrapped.
Third layer is primarily water
Bottom layer is primarily sediment

 

[Rayden]

Top layer is primarily oil.
Second layer is an emulsion of oil and water with some sediment entrapped.
Third layer is primarily water
Bottom layer is primarily sediment

So basically first and second layer are usable oil that i could further purify or turn to biodisel.
I'm thinking using gravity to siphon off first and second layer then move on to filtering, because this way i can save my filters for more uses than if I filter everything.
And third and fourth layer can be "throw out" ( Im thinking mixing 3rd and 4th layer with crushed grains ( corn , wheat etc. And fed my chickens with it). Oil was taken from the restaurant 2 day ago so its not more than 5 days old.

What would be your assumption on percentage of usable oil in the third and fourth layer. Is it worth to try and extract every bit of oil out of?

 

[Rayden]

So a little update. After agitating the canister again and letting it sit in a room that is 82F. Oil started to develop less of 3rd and fourth layer. But more of second layer and around same of first layer.


Here is pic to compare.

Looks like i made it worse than it was. Now i will have to filter whole canister , because it seems that water/oil emulsion fused with sediment and now its one big mess.

 

[lonewolf]

too much hassle, dont see the point, in the here and now its easy to buy petrol and diesel and post SHTF I wont be going far from base, its not fuel that will be the problem it'll be spare parts and the equipment to fit them, most modern cars they cant even diagnose the problem without a computer.

 

[Rayden]

too much hassle, don't see the point, in the here and now its easy to buy petrol and diesel

Listen here, your here and now may be different than someone's else. Did you have that in mind.
Gallon of diesel cost around 2.8 bucks in USA.
Where I am it costs $6.32.
That canister of oil from pictures guess how much i paid for it ZERO , its about 2 gallons. If I convert one gallon to diesel or any usable fuel I can save 6 bucks. Have in mind that hourly wage here is 4.5 USD.

So yeah for someone who works as delivery to almost every restaurant in my city I have access to hundreds gallons of free oil.
It literally makes me money picking up used oil IF I get to the point of making diesel or using filtered oil as fuel.

 

[BillMasen]

Listen here, your here and now may be different than someone's else. Did you have that in mind.
Gallon of diesel cost around 2.8 bucks in USA.
Where I am it costs $6.32.
That canister of oil from pictures guess how much i paid for it ZERO , its about 2 gallons. If I convert one gallon to diesel or any usable fuel I can save 6 bucks. Have in mind that hourly wage here is 4.5 USD.

So yeah for someone who works as delivery to almost every restaurant in my city I have access to hundreds gallons of free oil.
It literally makes me money picking up used oil IF I get to the point of making diesel or using filtered oil as fuel.

can you check out your local schools, colleges and hospitals they also often have waste cooking oil available

 

[DrHenley]

What would be your assumption on percentage of usable oil in the third and fourth layer. Is it worth to try and extract every bit of oil out of?

Very little, not worth fooling with.

 

[Rayden]

can you check out your local schools, colleges and hospitals they also often have waste cooking oil available

School food here is very different than in USA. Schools and colleges don have food prepared as in cantina in USA.
Hospitals also do not use deep fried foods in feeding their patients or staff.
Usally it is stews and dry foods as bread and jam and/or butter. Also soups are a main thing for hospitals. The way they go about meats they usually boil it and serve it to patients.

So its a no go. Maybe if I could get a hold of a plastic surgery hospital and get that liposuction fat. Might just use it for a good purpose.

Primary and basically only source of used oil are restaurants and fast foods. I also deliver for McDonalds kfc and etc. So if i could make a deal with them to take their oil would be awesome. But they act like they are so much more than other people so they discus me quite a lot.

 

[Rayden]

Very little, not worth fooling with.

So basically throw it out. Do you guys think using it as feedstock for animals is okay. Would the animals get sick xd.

Also what you think about the new mixture i got. Looks like agitating it again emulsified more of oil/water and sediment ?

 

[lonewolf]

Listen here, your here and now may be different than someone's else. Did you have that in mind.
Gallon of diesel cost around 2.8 bucks in USA.
Where I am it costs $6.32.
That canister of oil from pictures guess how much i paid for it ZERO , its about 2 gallons. If I convert one gallon to diesel or any usable fuel I can save 6 bucks. Have in mind that hourly wage here is 4.5 USD.

So yeah for someone who works as delivery to almost every restaurant in my city I have access to hundreds gallons of free oil.
It literally makes me money picking up used oil IF I get to the point of making diesel or using filtered oil as fuel.

the oil may be free but I would need a scientific and engineering degree to know how to build the equipment required to process old chip oil, fuel here is around £6 a gallon not sure what that is in $ .
and in a post SHTF situation these places one get the old oil from wont exist so continuing supply will be non existent.
I think I'll pass.

 

[Rayden]

the oil may be free but I would need a scientific and engineering degree to know how to build the equipment required to process old chip oil, fuel here is around £6 a gallon not sure what that is in $ .
and in a post SHTF situation these places one get the old oil from wont exist so continuing supply will be non existent.
I think I'll pass.

You really don't need any degreeeeeee. Only will to learn and adapt.

Rebuilding any civilization post SHTF , you will need transport of heavy building materials , food probably water too.
Unless you going to be alone for the rest of your life and then again people always aim to form communities. You cant have any large community without good logistics.
Are you going to use ox/horse pairs for the rest of time. I don't think so. First of all you have to feed them and take care of them every single day no exemptions. Working tractor you start do the job and you let it sit in the garage and with careful usage , simple tractor can run for ages without repairs.

On the other hand planting sunflowers is possible almost anywhere on planet Earth. Harvesting isn't so hard either. Turning sunflower seed in oil isn't hard either. There is hand cranked presses that you can use to turn any seed in to oil.

So oil is not hard to create from regular seeds all around us.

Creating diesel is a bit complicated but not impossible even post SHTF. In the end you can limit your self to trucks/tractors/cars that will run on pure veggie oil.
Motorcycles, scooters, chainsaws etc can run on alcohol.


After pressing the oils out of seeds , you can use what's left to ferment and create alcohol to use it in tools etc.
Ford intended his trucks/cars to run on alcohol after fermenting all that corn ( Just to mention cattle digests corn better if fermented and are able to use more calories out of it). I can go on but you get the point.

Also not every person post SHTF will do everything in community. I will have my role you will have yours etc.

 

[lonewolf]

Rebuilding of civilisation will come a long way down the line, not years, decades and probably many decades post SHTF, I will be long gone before any of that occurs, thats for the following generations not us.
I prefer peace and quiet, solitude and isolation, I dont like people, I will be living a very simple life "close to the earth" as we say here.
I'll be the old hermit that lives up the lane.

 

[BillMasen]

So basically throw it out. Do you guys think using it as feedstock for animals is okay. Would the animals get sick xd.

Also what you think about the new mixture i got. Looks like agitating it again emulsified more of oil/water and sediment ?

Many vegatable oils emit toxic smoke when heated whilst cooking, So they may MAY not be suitable to feed to critters

 

[lonewolf]

I wouldnt feed oils to animals or anything cooked either, unless you want them to drop dead in front of you.
most animals, unless predators, are vegetarians.

 

[Rayden]

I wouldnt feed oils to animals or anything cooked either, unless you want them to drop dead in front of you.
most animals, unless predators, are vegetarians.

Primarily I was thinking chickens, I see those little buggers eating everything.

 

[MNwr786]

I would use an old electric deep fryer to drive the water off (till the snap crackle popping ends) and filter with a couple layers of cheese cloth once cooled, then, follow the instructions in the video with the guy in the white shirt. The other video has a few crucial steps missing. Titration and washing are important as too little lye is bad, too much is a waste and putting caustic salts in an aluminum engine head might lead to a short-lived smile.

Those recipes call for methanol, and although it is a dirt cheap industrial chemical, on a consumer level where diesel is over $6 a gallon, buying it in anything other than a 55gal drum may be a waste of money.

The videos mention methoxide, but reacting hydroxide with alcohol hardly makes the methoxide anion, the equilibrium is in strong favor of the starting material. Methoxides are usually made with anhydrous alcohol and alkali metal. So if KOH isn't strong enough of a base to deprotonate methanol, why the methanol? I don't know for sure but I'd guess to increase the solubility of the hydroxide (which i think would work alone if it were soluble in the oil). If you had some apparatus to continuously agitate and warm the mixture to keep the base in contact with the oil, I think water and lye would do the same job as methanol and lye just sitting for a week. But that's just my GUESS ~ i might try it if I get bored.

You could always make a wood gasifier with a centrifugal ash filter to run a gasoline vehicle if you have one. You can also make wood alcohol by distilling wood chips (methanol, acetic acid and acetone are the crude distillation products which could then be redistilled).

As for giving chickens waste fryer oil??? Not sure thats a good idea. Oil candles, heating fuel and maybe forge quench oil would be better uses.

 

[Rayden]

So if KOH isn't strong enough of a base to deprotonate methanol, why the methanol?

Every video out there uses methanol. I don't know man.

If you had some apparatus to continuously agitate and warm the mixture to keep the base in contact with the oil, I think water and lye would do the same job as methanol and lye just sitting for a week. But that's just my GUESS

So melting KOH in water and than mixing it with oil would do the same job as melting KOH in alcohol and mixing it with oil???

You could always make a wood gasifier with a centrifugal ash filter to run a gasoline vehicle if you have one.

I did this with my scooter engine , ran it on syngas and on methane.


I will filter the oil Monday probably , that's when i have free day to experiment.

 

[MNwr786]

So melting KOH in water and than mixing it with oil would do the same job as melting KOH in alcohol and mixing it with oil???

I'm guessing it would work with constant mixing, not 100% certain though. If it did work, it would require serious agitation to keep the two mixed as neither water nor KOH is soluble in oil. Someone with an ultrasonic homogenizer should give it a try on a small scale. I have a hunch it wouldn't take very long at all. KOH alone is strong enough of a base to hydrolyze the glycerin-fat ester group, its just not soluble in it. I don't see why this process couldnt be improved using much less methanol, more water and ultrasonic agitation as a "turn on and walk away for an hour" solution. Just brainstorming here because it sounds like your situation could benefit from more efficient means for long-term stability. Its worth trying is all. One of these days Ill get me an ultrasonic parts washer.

 

[Dani]

I will admit that I only render our animal fat. Never vegetable and wouldnt even know where to start there. Anyone have the "How to"s" on that one. I have rape seeds that are good for oil making. They produce yellow flowers then seeds that you can turn into an oil "with a press"?? Havent done a lot of reseach on it although I plant every couple years to get a replenish of seeds just in case.

Animal fat I can tell you all day long the easiest way that requires the least amount of work.

 

[Rayden]

Someone with an ultrasonic homogenizer should give it a try on a small scale. I have a hunch it wouldn't take very long at all.

Well those are quite expensive to start with xd. And looks like its on really small scale. This process has to be a crude and " simple "

"turn on and walk away for an hour" solution.

They actually have devices that do this by them self. I think capacity is 80 gallons for the cheapest one of $10000.
And all you do is put in the feed stock, methanol and KOH or equivalent and let it run and it produces biodiesel on one side on the other "waste" products

Animal fat I can tell you all day long the easiest way that requires the least amount of work.

If you are wiling to explain your process would be nice ?
I can tell you process of turning animal fat to biodiesel is basically the same except you have to render out the fat and than heat it up until its all melted and than do the same process as with veggie oil.

Anyone have the "How to"s" on that one. I have rape seeds that are good for oil making.

Yes rape seed is very good for oil making. I don't know exact way of collecting seeds and preparing them for press.
But i can tell you there is hand cranked presses that you can use to cold/hot press the oil( one i was looking at has adjustable pulleys that you can connect to a motor/engine setup and run it like that too) ,they use small table candle or alcohol burner under them and that way you raise the temperature of the press to working temperature. After that press keeps its self at needed temperature because it releases heat while pressing the seeds.
Then its simple let it sit for a few day maybe a week and then siphon of the oil while you keep water/sediment on the bottom.
Then it depends what you want it used for you can filter it down to 5 microns ( People are using jeans to do this) or keep it as is. Depends what you using it for.

Maybe you will need antioxidants for it ( this I don't know much about). I don't think I will need to preserve it for a long time. I will be making it on demand. My storage options would be to store the seed as is and using the seed primarily for feed stock for animals, than if I need some fuel for my machines I make my self some fuel. Also you can use what's leftover after pressing to feed the animals as a high protein/carb diet or ferment it to get alcohol to burn somewhere else. After fermenting using the leftovers as high protein food for animals. And if you wanna go really deep, using the manure that animals produce after consuming all from the above , to create methane with biodigesters. Dude I'm crazy about producing my own fuel be it gas , liquid or solid .

 

[Oddcaliber]

If your looking to run a vehicle on vegetable/ waste oil there's a lot of good information on the VW forms. Some companies have a conversation kit that lets you run a diesel engine on waste oils. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Rayden]

Some companies have a conversation kit that lets you run a diesel engine on waste oils

Yeah i saw those too. But they are kind of hard to get in Croatia. I was thinking more like just adding another tank for veggie oil and after machine heats up switch the fuels.

VW forms

Can i have a link to this please

 

[Oddcaliber]

I'll see what I can find.

 

[Dani]

Well those are quite expensive to start with xd. And looks like its on really small scale. This process has to be a crude and " simple "


They actually have devices that do this by them self. I think capacity is 80 gallons for the cheapest one of $10000.
And all you do is put in the feed stock, methanol and KOH or equivalent and let it run and it produces biodiesel on one side on the other "waste" products


If you are wiling to explain your process would be nice ?
I can tell you process of turning animal fat to biodiesel is basically the same except you have to render out the fat and than heat it up until its all melted and than do the same process as with veggie oil.



Yes rape seed is very good for oil making. I don't know exact way of collecting seeds and preparing them for press.
But i can tell you there is hand cranked presses that you can use to cold/hot press the oil( one i was looking at has adjustable pulleys that you can connect to a motor/engine setup and run it like that too) ,they use small table candle or alcohol burner under them and that way you raise the temperature of the press to working temperature. After that press keeps its self at needed temperature because it releases heat while pressing the seeds.
Then its simple let it sit for a few day maybe a week and then siphon of the oil while you keep water/sediment on the bottom.
Then it depends what you want it used for you can filter it down to 5 microns ( People are using jeans to do this) or keep it as is. Depends what you using it for.

Maybe you will need antioxidants for it ( this I don't know much about). I don't think I will need to preserve it for a long time. I will be making it on demand. My storage options would be to store the seed as is and using the seed primarily for feed stock for animals, than if I need some fuel for my machines I make my self some fuel. Also you can use what's leftover after pressing to feed the animals as a high protein/carb diet or ferment it to get alcohol to burn somewhere else. After fermenting using the leftovers as high protein food for animals. And if you wanna go really deep, using the manure that animals produce after consuming all from the above , to create methane with biodigesters. Dude I'm crazy about producing my own fuel be it gas , liquid or solid .

Hand-Cranked Oil Press

Is this the type of press you are talking about?
When I render animal fat (lard) I cut up into 1-2 inch chunks then throw in an electric roasting pan with water underneath the pan on medium. Stir on occasion until melted down,

 

[Rayden]

Hand-Cranked Oil Press
View attachment 12118
Is this the type of press you are talking about?
When I render animal fat (lard) I cut up into 1-2 inch chunks then throw in an electric roasting pan with water underneath the pan on medium. Stir on occasion until melted down,

Yes that's the one I was thinking about. Quite useful on small to medium scale.

 

[Rayden]

So i have been playing with my waste oil. Tried to siphon it with gravity but for the love of God, I don't have large enough hose. Max diameter I have is 3mm. So i used my cheap automatic watering pump to siphon the oil out of the bigger canister. It runs on 5 watts xd. But its doing its job even though oil is quite thick its still pumping. I even tried to pump out the second layer and its pumping but I wont be using the second layer. I will use only first layer for the next tests.

I managed to get 3.5 Liters which is close to a gallon of oil( well mostly oil)
I will find some old jeans and try and filter it out later today/tomorrow.

Here is some pics to see wuss up.