Wills/Trust/Estate/Medical directives

[DrJenner]

Part of prepping also involves your hard earned property/cash/assets and also letting your family/loved ones know what your wishes are should you not be able to make decisions for yourself.
My friend's unfortunate death this last weekend really propelled my husband and I to make our living will and trust. We used an online company called Trust & Will, which also has attorney support available. We outlined which kid gets which properties, other assets, and how the life insurance will be divided should both of us pass at the same time. I want the government to get nothing, and am also working on how to avoid the estate tax.

The health care directives done in this are pretty ambiguous though. These are fine to fill out for generic care, however my recommendation (working with people/families in catastrophic end of life situations) is to complete the advanced directives specific for the state you live in. For example, in WA state there is a form called a POLST form which specifically lines out, would you want CPR if your heart were to stop? Would you want to be intubated, would you want a feeding tube, antibiotics, long term life support, etc? The POLST is usually for people with chronic illness that are in and out of the hospital a lot; the recommendation is to post it on the refrigerator or another area where if medics are called to your home, they will be able to see this right away.

There are a lot of facets to healthcare directives that the generic boilerplate templates done by attorneys and estate planners do not address. This advanced directive form is a bit more specific and is more helpful should you ever have to experience an ICU stay. Most people will not, but having this done will make things infinitely easier on your family (and/or friends) that have to make decisions for you.

https://www.honoringchoicespnw.org/.../05/HCPNW-Overview-DPOA-HC-m.2021.05.12-1.pdf

 

[havasu]

Thank you for this. I know many families have been torn apart because they neglected to add their own directives.

 

[Morgan101]

We worked with an Elder Law Firm. Our entire estate is in a 3" Ring Binder. Assets, Insurance, Wills, Trusts, Health Care, Special Needs Trust for our son. They were very thorough, and helped us every step of the way. Our daughter will be the executor of our estate should we both go at the same time. She can take the binder to the attorney, and he will giude her through the process. We were very pleased with the result.

 

[Supervisor42]

We worked with an Elder Law Firm. Our entire estate is in a 3" Ring Binder. Assets, Insurance, Wills, Trusts, Health Care, Special Needs Trust for our son. They were very thorough, and helped us every step of the way. Our daughter will be the executor of our estate should we both go at the same time. She can take the binder to the attorney, and he will giude her through the process. We were very pleased with the result.

My mom's will (and 3 codicils), goes into probate on the 8th of this month.
Very well-written and thorough .
She had a great lawyer draw it up instead of some online AI-bot.

 

[Haertig]

My mom's will (and 3 codicils), go into probate on the 8th of this month.

One of our goals is to avoid probate. Estate planning law firms can help you accomplish this. The basic concept is to die as a pauper. You don't have enough money left to require probate. One way to accomplish this is to put your property in trust. You also have to be aware that if you own property in another state, you may be forced into probate in that remote state as well. Talk to an estate planning lawyer about all this.

Back to Dr. Jenner's original post, here in Colorado the form is called a "MOST form". Here it is, as an example - I'm sure many other states forms are similar.

https://www.coloradoadvancedirectives.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/1-MOST-Form-FINAL-2015.pdf

 

[Pearl]

What a great thread Doc, so many people don't think about these things!

 

[DrJenner]

What a great thread Doc, so many people don't think about these things!

Until it's too late really and like @havasu said it tears families apart.
I've tried to have the conversation with my parents and they refuse to talk about it. They are 87 and 75. It's going to be a mess when that goes down as I have a brother who is not on the same page as the rest of us.

 

[Weedygarden]

AN important question, what is the price range for getting this done by a lawyer?

 

[Cascadian]

Great topic. We put off doing our will for a long time. A trip to Los Angeles on the street bike changed that. However that was many years ago. Now we live in another state with property in both. We really should update it.

 

[angie_nrs]

This thread reminded me of this older post.
Estate Planning

At one time I thought I wanted to be cremated, but I have since changed my mind on that. I need to dig out my papers from the safe and make sure I updated it.

I know people who have little kids that haven't given this topic a second thought. In reality, they are really the ones that need to get things in writing. Who takes care of the kids if a tragedy happens? That is probably the biggest question that needs to have an answer. And, the one you name as caretaker needs to accept that responsibility first. It is a difficult subject for younger people to talk about and everyone seems to be so busy that spending time on such a morbid topic just doesn't appeal to them. However, when hubby and I got our paperwork together it gave us a sense of peace knowing that those difficult questions had been answered and put on paper.

 

[Supervisor42]

At one time I thought I wanted to be cremated, but I have since changed my mind on that. I need to dig out my papers from the safe and make sure I updated it.

I know people who have little kids that haven't given this topic a second thought. In reality, they are really the ones that need to get things in writing. Who takes care of the kids if a tragedy happens? That is probably the biggest question that needs to have an answer. And, the one you name as caretaker needs to accept that responsibility first. It is a difficult subject for younger people to talk about and everyone seems to be so busy that spending time on such a morbid topic just doesn't appeal to them. However, when hubby and I got our paperwork together it gave us a sense of peace knowing that those difficult questions had been answered and put on paper.

I was unfortunate enough to be named executor of my brother's will that was hastily drawn up when he was on his deathbed.
It was garbage and a total train-wreck!!!
Nowhere in it mentioned what was to be done with the 5 heavily-mortgaged rental houses he owned. (~$300K)
I even had to pay the POS lawyer that drew it up.
Told the girl at his office that I didn't want to talk to him because it would be nothing but cusswords.
Lesson = don't wait to the last minute.
Edit: and if this thread gets too quiet, I even have a funny 'executor' story to tell.

 

[Morgan101]

AN important question, what is the price range for getting this done by a lawyer?

IMHO you will find a very wide range of costs, probably anywhere fro $1,000.00 on the low end to $4-5,000.00 on the higher end. Do your due diligence. Ask what they will do and what they will charge. Ask what they will charge for follow up visits or changes.

Here is a link for the firm we used. You will have to find a firm that practices in your area because the law will be specific for your atate, but this will give you an idea of what they do, and maybe some questions to ask.

https://www.yourestatematters.com/

 

[Morgan101]

Lesson = don't wait to the last minute.

It probably took us six months to a year to get this all put together. Your first meeting will be introductory. This is what we do. This is what we offer. This is what it will cost. If you like and agree with what you hear, you will set a follow up meeting to start the process. They will tell you things to bring with you like insurance policies, bank statements, financial statements, titles to cars, home, properties. It was very comprehensive, and none of it was easy. There were times when we sat in the attorney's office while he got on the phone with the insurance companies, or banks, financial advisors. Our experience was that very few people followed through and sent waht they were supposed to send. You had to follow up, pester, and nag people to get things done, and our attorney was very helpful in that regard.

I feel like we made a good choice, and I am glad it is done. It is comforting to know that it will be one-stop shopping for us. If one of us goes we take the binder back to the attorney, and make the necessary changes. When we are both gone, our daughter takes the binder to the attorney's office, and asks "where do we go from here?" Everything can be done from one place. I would highly recommend having it done by a professional.

 

[Haertig]

The basic stuff shouldn't cost much. It's kind of boilerplate. Wills, Power of Attorney, Medical Power of Attorney, HIPAA, Medical directives, Living Will, etc. We have had no need to update this stuff for many years, so I don't know current costs. I would expect it would be below $1000 though. Maybe even significantly below.

You can make your Wills more involved, and that might cost more. We didn't choose that for ourselves. My wife and my WIlls are about a page and a half long. Basically they say, "If I die, my stuff goes to my spouse. If we both die, my stuff is equally divided between our children." Which is basically what should happen to our stuff if we didn't have Wills - but it would be a major hassle if things had to go through probate. Assets would disappear into unpredictable government and lawyer fees when probate forces its ugly head into the picture. That's really about all there is for us in our Wills. Everything else (which is the vast majority of it) is done in our Trust. That's because most everything we own is owned by the Trust, and that is not controlled by Wills. Our Wills really only cover the scraps. The few things we own that are not in the Trust, and there's not enough of those scraps to even force us into probate. As far as the state and probate goes, my wife and I have assets of, maybe, only $40k. Not enough for anybody - including the government - to care about. Staying out of probate was one of the major goals in setting up the Trust in the first place.

Now, having a lawyer set up a Trust does indeed get more expensive. Trusts can be on the simpler side, or they can be very complex. Depending on what your goals are in setting up the Trust, and the amount and variety of assets you are trying to protect. Expect an additional couple thousand dollars for a lawyer to set up a reasonable Trust. If you don't have many assets, other than your home, it might be cheaper and just as appropriate for you to set up a Lady Bird Deed rather than a Trust. Things vary from state to state - what I am describing regarding my own setup is in Colorado. You may have different things to consider, and set things up differently, if you are in some other state. But you really should talk to an Estate Planning Lawyer about that, and not rely on "Internet advice" like I am giving out now. I am just trying to "wet your interest" so you will go talk to an Estate Planning Lawyer - I'm not trying to advise you what to do.

 

[Supervisor42]

It probably took us six months to a year to get this all put together. ...
I feel like we made a good choice, and I am glad it is done. It is comforting to know that it will be one-stop shopping for us. If one of us goes we take the binder back to the attorney, and make the necessary changes. When we are both gone, our daughter takes the binder to the attorney's office, and asks "where do we go from here?" Everything can be done from one place. I would highly recommend having it done by a professional.

Even then, it can get gritty when the 'tug-of-war' starts.
Funny story time:
My brother's prize possession was a mammoth early-1900's pool-table that was worth a fortune.
Both of his sons emailed me that they wanted it real bad.
I emailed them back quoting his will "..my possessions are to be equally divided between my 2 sons."
Selling it and dividing the money would be a family tragedy.
So, I summoned King Solomon and told them that I had a chainsaw and splitting-hammer and could divide it perfectly 50/50, so each could get their 'fair share' .
Both of them didn't like my idea.
...Unless they could come to an agreement who would get the whole thing, I would do my job.
Surprise! They both replied the next day that they had figured out who would get it.
I verified with a phone call to each of them, and the transfer of a junk pickup truck was also involved.
Everybody happy.

 

[Morgan101]

I still know families who do not speak to each other after the estate was divided. Unbelievable.

This is my own rule. Call it quirky or anal or whatever, but our estate is totally between my wife and I and our two children. PERIOD!! There is no place at the table for in-laws, cousins, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, special friends, nobody.

 

[Supervisor42]

. You will have to find a firm that practices in your area because the law will be specific for your state, but this will give you an idea of what they do, and maybe some questions to ask.

I have to expand on this a bit.
This is so important.
For single people with no spouse or offspring, if there is no will, everything goes to the state .
Things are wildly different down here because they still go by "The Napoleonic Code".
https://www.theadvocate.com/curious_louisiana/how-is-louisianas-legal-system-different-from-other-states/article_64d0ab1a-7023-11ed-86fb-7b649f110230.html

One specific difference between civil law and common law is the concept of forced heirship. In other states, when a person dies, he or she can leave a will that gives his property to anyone — kids, a surviving spouse or a charity. But, if that person wishes to disinherit his children, he can. ...Today, the law requires a person to leave the property to his children if the child is under the age of 24 or if the child suffers from a disability that leads to not being able to live independently.

You can just guess what happens if you have no living spouse or children.

 

[Haertig]

but our estate is totally between my wife and I and our two children

Ditto for us.

[edit] p.s. - But I will say that I inherited significantly from three different aunts/uncles. Totally unexpected. But all three had no children, and for the two that were married, their spouses had died decades earlier. In my wife's case, she inherited from her aunt who was also childless, and widowed for decades. And my wife was also her primary caregiver. So I should clarify my remarks - our estate is between spouses and children, because we HAVE spouses and children. They are our primary. If we had no primaries, then others would be involved. [/edit]

 

[The Lazy L]

For me it was a fuzz over $700

 

[Old Whatshisname]

One of our goals is to avoid probate. Estate planning law firms can help you accomplish this. The basic concept is to die as a pauper. You don't have enough money left to require probate. One way to accomplish this is to put your property in trust. You also have to be aware that if you own property in another state, you may be forced into probate in that remote state as well. Talk to an estate planning lawyer about all this.... <_>

I agree, Mr. Haertig. Our little farmette, both vehicles, and any collectibles we have lying around the homestead are in an irrevocable trust, with Dawn and me as trustees with my son and daughter becoming co-trustees when we die. As far as "final wishes" are concerned, we have strict plans and written/signed/notarized instructions to our two kids.

In addition to avoiding probate, a trust can shield you from lawsuits dealing with -- among other things -- insurance payment. Someone breaks an ankle on "your" property, then sues you. If the property isn't really yours, but belongs to the trust, the person loses out on a chance to get your property awarded, because it's almost impossible to sue a trust.

 

[Haertig]

In addition to avoiding probate, a trust can shield you from lawsuits

That was another very important thing for us in setting up the trust. Example: Unless the wife and I live forever, there will be significant assets for our kids in the trust when we die. Say, something happens, someone is injured, and one of our kids is judged 51% at fault. The trust protects the assets we leave the kids - the trust cannot be touched should a lawsuit be brought against one of our kids. Also, assets in the trust are protected from relatives that might come out of the woodwork looking to enrich themselves when we die. Not that we have any relatives like that, or that they would have much of a chance of getting anything at all - since outside of the trust, we are paupers therefore our estate won't need to go into probate where relatives could lay claim to things.

There are multiple pieces in play when you are looking for financial security. First, you have to work and earn money. Second, you have to invest that money wisely so that it grows. Third, you have to protect what you've got - and a trust plays a large part in that. But beyond financial security, you also want everything else to be in order. You've got to have medical and financial powers or attorney. You've got to have medical directives, or at least some documentation on what your medical wishes are at end of life. You've got to have documentation of where your stuff is for your next of kin - bank accounts, investment firms, stock broker accounts. You might want to advise your next of kin that you stuffed $100,000 into your mattress before they donate the thing to Goodwill (Goodwill doesn't take used mattresses I wouldn't think - yeuch! - but you get the idea of the point I am making!)

 

[Bacpacker]

Very timely thread for me. We have been talking about doing a will. It's just he wife and I, no kids. We'll likely leave everything to my only niece and the wife's 2 autistic nephews.
Funny thing I just watched a handful of videos on setting up trust and how to use that with a will.

 

[havasu]

This is very fresh in my mind. My brother and sister in law were over 3 weeks ago. I cooked a great dinner with appetizers, BBQ'ed tri-tip, dessert, and a few bottles of wine. None of us have any health problems....or this is what we thought.

6 days later, she suffered a massive heart attack and died in her hubby's arms. Although they were married 42 years, he had no idea whether she wanted to be buried or cremated, where to place her, no final wishes.

They are driving to a local Forest Lawn Cemetery right now, and plan on meeting with a funeral director in about 30 minutes. Say a little prayer for them to make the best decision this morning, and if you do one thing today, talk to your better half and have a discussion on something which is inevitable, but people act like they will never have to worry about this.

 

[Haertig]

I told my family that after I am gone, my wishes are for them to do whatever they need for their comfort. I'm cheap - as far as I'm concerned, the compost heap out back is a fine resting place for me. However, I told them that burial, cremation, or whatever they are most comfortable with is my wish as well. None of this "We want to do what he would have wanted". I want them to make whatever decisions they have to based on their needs, not mine (since I won't have any at that time).

 

[The Lazy L]

Grandpa was the dominating type. His children was relived after dad took grandpa to the funeral for grandpa to make his funeral arraignments.

Some time later dad was visibly upset. I asked him what’s up. Grandpa called and wanted dad to take grandpa back to the funeral home to make changes. Dad said they thought this was settled months ago.

I suggested dad call the funeral home to let them know they are coming. Funeral Home was to agree with any and all changes grandpa made BUT not to change anything! Grandpa would be happy, his children would be happy too.

 

[Old Whatshisname]

Havasu, my deepest condolences to your brother as well as you and your (and her) families. I can only hope that the funeral director is compassionate enough not to take advantage of your brother's grief.

Since I'm (a) male and (b)12 years older than Dawn, I will probably die first but the brats know of our wishes and I have no doubt that they will abide by them. When our time comes to return to Gaia, the first will be cremated, and the ashes stored in a container. When the second dies, (s)he will be cremated, our ashes mixed together, Andy and/or Eleni will accompany them to our secret place at N37°47'29" W111° 29'24", do whatever rituals they choose, and let us be taken by the wind. Blessed be!

 

[Amish Heart]

My sis and I have been checking into this for mom because the nursing home needs something on file for her. Mom wants to be cremated (I hate that), and buried in between our grandparents at the menno cemetary down the road. With a nameplate. That's it. So we found who would do all that, and even though I don't agree, it's not my body. Even got an estimate of price, including death certificate copies and a memorial, and an urn to bury...about $5K

 

[havasu]

Speaking of urns, the mortuary wanted $695 for a plain Jane. BIL went home, got onto Amazon, and purchased this same urn for $79. I hate how these "salesman" use your fragile emotions to upsale what is needed.

 

[Bacpacker]

One thing we did a few years ago was to buy our burial plot. It's at the cemetary at my parents church. Nice place in the country. Didn't cost very much. We should do pre arrangements at the funeral home and buy a stone too. Prices will just go up from here.

 

[dademoss]

Speaking of urns, the mortuary wanted $695 for a plain Jane. BIL went home, got onto Amazon, and purchased this same urn for $79. I hate how these "salesman" use your fragile emotions to upsale what is needed.

The "discussion" when Dad died was interesting. Mom was a wreck, naturally, but I was raised by engineers and machinists, kinda like growing up with wolves.

Funeral guy "You need a coffin, they start at 5K."
Dave says, show me the statute that says we have to have a coffin to cremate a body"
"Uh, that how it's done."
Not this time, what are the REAL options?

we settled on under a grand, as opposed to 10K plus nobody wanted.

For Me, Where is Lori gonna find a Viking ship and a giant bonfire

Actually, it just says cremation and a beer and pizza party for those that knew me.

She lurks about, she better let you all know, it's in the "End Game" notes.