Preparing to get old(er) and choosing a back up power option

[Heartbroken]

I am convinced that Michigan will soon see rolling blackouts due to governmental policies, above and beyond the typical weather related outages.
I intend to have a generator that will run the whole house. At my old place I did alright with a 5,000 watt generator and a sub panel that had just the critical circuits for the furnace, well pump, sump pump, etc. but here I want to be able to use whatever I want to during an outage.
Here is my question - should I go with a roll into place, manual hook up unit, or one of those permanently installed units with an automatic switch?

I really like this one: DUROMAX 13,000-Watt/10,500-Watt Tri-Fuel Remote Start Gasoline Propane Natural Gas Portable Generator with CO Alert XP13000HXT - The Home Depot
Having the flexibility with what fuel might be available seems like a good idea. I could keep it in the garage, then roll it outside, connect it to whatever fuel, plug it in to the gen input, go in the basement to flip the transfer switch, and be good to go.

But then I started thinking - I can do that now, but what about five years from now? Ten, fifteen, if God makes me stay here that long? Does it make more sense to spend more money and tie myself to one fuel option, to install a permanent generator that will automatically come on when needed, and turn off when it isn't?

I was looking at this one: Champion Power Equipment 14000-Watt Air Cooled Standby Generator with 200 Amp NEMA 3R Whole House Transfer Switch 100837 - The Home Depot

Either way, I'm looking at hiring an electrician to install the generator connection, and a plumber to run a natural gas line connection.

I rarely travel, and I work from home, so not really worried about an automatic response if the power goes out when I'm not home.
I have been known to simply roll over and go back to sleep if the power goes out during the night, and go out and hook up the generator once there is daylight. Then there was the cool down/refuel every 8 hours, often in a dark and stormy night. And switching the inputs to see if power had been restored yet or not. It would be nice to have all that happen automatically, but at this point it's not really a big deal. Though I'm guessing that perspective will change as I age.

Anyone have some advice? Similar situation?

(For those who might ask, I have a gas stove, gas fired boiler and hot water heater, rarely use the electric clothes dryer; I do like to have the tv and some lights on, there's the fridge, a couple of chest freezers and a garage door opener, and I will be installing minisplits for air conditioning.)

 

[Amish Heart]

We have a propane back up whole house generator. Goes on after half a minute of the power going off. Also solar backup that charges batteries we can use with an inverter for individual items. And three smaller gas powered portable generators. Wood burning stove we use for heat. On our own well. I live in an amish community, and most around here use strictly solar or propane.

 

[Haertig]

I know nothing about what generator to recommend. However, you might want to think about this: If YOU can roll it outside to hook it up, someone ELSE can roll it away and take it for themselves. During the quietness of a blackout, a running engine is going to stick out like a sore thumb and draw attention to itself. You could chain it to something secure potentially, but someone could hacksaw through the generators mounting frame that you chained up. With a battery powered reciprocating saw (can be had for under $100), the frame sawing job could be completed in seconds - any noise would probably be covered by the running engine.

So depending on where you live, having something that is conveniently portable might be a negative, not a plus.

 

[montanabill]

Just be aware if you depend on natural gas that you can lose gas pressure in a extended grid down..

 

[kd4ulw]

If my house wasn’t all electric I’d have a whole-house natural gas generator. If it got bad enough that the natural gas company couldn’t supply your unit the gas pumps probably wouldn’t be working for liquid fuel either.

 

[Pearl]

The key here is "getting older"! I would worry being dependant on electricity or gas! Neither may be available if they don't want it to be! I want a large solar generator! We made it easily through a 4 1/2 day power outage with a gas generator and the woodstove. But getting older throws a kink in everything!

 

[Amish Heart]

It's husband's medical equipment that throws a wrench in things. That's what we want to make sure we have power. My favorite cousin is powering a small air conditioner with solar. Her daughter next door to her got a very fancy vaccum, similar to a Rainbow Brand , she said. First thing, is she doesn't have carpet, but she uses it still to clean floor areas. Asked her how she powers the big thing, and she uses solar. Most around me have solar refrigerators, too So...getting older....is it for med equipment, Air Conditioning, just ease of things?

 

[Plainflatlander]

I am in the same position now. Have a portable and a back up portable with transfer switch. lost power recently for 3.5 days and did ok with them and woodstove. Friends who have whole house generators are trying to convince me to buy one. Looking at solar generators as well.

 

[montanabill]

If I was dependent on electric power for medical reasons I would certainly make a large effort to install propane powered things like a generator. Here in montana propane tanks of 500 to 1000 are common as well as tanks that are buried so they are resistant to forest fires and freezing.
We are on a much smaller scale with wood heat (two years of wood stockpiled which is a big pile here in montana) and various gas generators and a small solar set up for pumping our well charging deep cycle batteries. Everything is 12 voot altho I have inverters for the rare need. That and two low draw 12 volt ice chests (one is a spare) for keeping insulin refrigerated. I have enough for a year which should get us thru minor collapses like china not shipping medical supplies.
If the lapse of normal shipping and services lasts longer than a year any power source will be a moot point..

 

[Cabin Fever]

We have a propane back up whole house generator. Goes on after half a minute of the power going off. Also solar backup that charges batteries we can use with an inverter for individual items. And three smaller gas powered portable generators. Wood burning stove we use for heat. On our own well. I live in an amish community, and most around here use strictly solar or propane.

I always thought, for whatever reason, that Amish people did not use electricity of any type. It was my misperception that the Amish were opposed to modern ways.

 

[Cabin Fever]

One bit of advice, based on the experience an acquaintance had with his whole house generator. This guy was so proud of his new generator system and he let everyone know it. Then, a storm came up and knocked out power all over the county. Well, the storm barely got going and a tree fell on his brand-new, never-use whole house generator. He was without electricity just like the rest of us. So, my advice is to locate your generator where a tree cannot possibly fall on it.

 

[Hooch]

One of my preps was to have a propane generac generator installed. Its overkill for my current residence I call the tin can. I wanted a big enough gennie that would automatically start n power my future house plus my existing shop n barn.
Out here people have their own tanks for propane, I already had a tank for the tin cans stove n water heater but I elected to give the gennie it's own tank. The idea is, when it hits the fan, with the gennie on it's own tank supply it gives me more of a buffer.
The generator has not had any issues and I've had it for years now. One thing I'd check out for whatever generator your looking at is the warranty stipulation.
Generac will only honor its warranty only if you've had it regularly serviced by their approved technicians and service providers. I dont know if that has changed but that was a big cost since the one n only approved technicians was 2.5 hours away n charged way too much for a yearly service.
As soon as that was up I dumped that.
I also got a surge protector for the gennie as well. I dont believe it will stop a Emp charge..but it will protect it from a lightning strike surge or regular power one.
I can turn it off if I dont want it running even in a outage too..in case I dont want the noise. You can set them up so you can control them remotely too.
Back then..the whole set up.. gennie, tank , filling up the tank and install was about 8 grand. I worked alot of overtime n saved up and I feel I've definitely got my money's worth over the years.
I actually thinking I'd like maybe a hardened solar system. Opis I think they are called for when I build my place n keep the propane on the shop, barn maybe..but I dont know. Actually..when it really hits the fan, the wood stove n a few solar lights for evening will satisfy most needs.

 

[Neb]

These are currently 53% off on Amazon.

Limited-time deal: Mango Power E Home Backup & Portable Power Station, 3.5kWh Capacity & 3kW AC Output, CATL LFP Battery with 10-year Warranty, Fast Charging in 1.5 Hours, For Emergency/RV/Off-Grid, 30% IRS Tax Credit Amazon.com

They can be useful for short term outages with no noise.


Ben

 

[montanabill]

Just be aware of the "solar generators" that take a long time to charge from solar panels. The quick charge time is usally from house current or a actual generator.

 

[zoomzoom]

These are currently 53% off on Amazon.

They can be useful for short term outages with no noise.

Took a quick look. Gulp. That's pretty expensive.
One of the very first reviews said:
3 100 AH batteries
1 battery charger
1 3k watt inverter
a nice plastic case with wheels.

I kind of agree.
Use those components and add 400w of solar panels, you're still under $2K.

 

[Amish Heart]

Cabin Fever....regarding Amish and electricity...they are off grid. That's the rule in our community. Solar and propane and gas powered small engines are ok here. Not so in other communities, like the Schwartzentrubers. Depends on the community one lives in.

 

[Mountain trapper]

I am convinced that Michigan will soon see rolling blackouts due to governmental policies, above and beyond the typical weather related outages.
I intend to have a generator that will run the whole house. At my old place I did alright with a 5,000 watt generator and a sub panel that had just the critical circuits for the furnace, well pump, sump pump, etc. but here I want to be able to use whatever I want to during an outage.
Here is my question - should I go with a roll into place, manual hook up unit, or one of those permanently installed units with an automatic switch?

I really like this one: DUROMAX 13,000-Watt/10,500-Watt Tri-Fuel Remote Start Gasoline Propane Natural Gas Portable Generator with CO Alert XP13000HXT - The Home Depot
Having the flexibility with what fuel might be available seems like a good idea. I could keep it in the garage, then roll it outside, connect it to whatever fuel, plug it in to the gen input, go in the basement to flip the transfer switch, and be good to go.

But then I started thinking - I can do that now, but what about five years from now? Ten, fifteen, if God makes me stay here that long? Does it make more sense to spend more money and tie myself to one fuel option, to install a permanent generator that will automatically come on when needed, and turn off when it isn't?

I was looking at this one: Champion Power Equipment 14000-Watt Air Cooled Standby Generator with 200 Amp NEMA 3R Whole House Transfer Switch 100837 - The Home Depot

Either way, I'm looking at hiring an electrician to install the generator connection, and a plumber to run a natural gas line connection.

I rarely travel, and I work from home, so not really worried about an automatic response if the power goes out when I'm not home.
I have been known to simply roll over and go back to sleep if the power goes out during the night, and go out and hook up the generator once there is daylight. Then there was the cool down/refuel every 8 hours, often in a dark and stormy night. And switching the inputs to see if power had been restored yet or not. It would be nice to have all that happen automatically, but at this point it's not really a big deal. Though I'm guessing that perspective will change as I age.

Anyone have some advice? Similar situation?

(For those who might ask, I have a gas stove, gas fired boiler and hot water heater, rarely use the electric clothes dryer; I do like to have the tv and some lights on, there's the fridge, a couple of chest freezers and a garage door opener, and I will be installing minisplits for air conditioning.)

Like everything else; ya get what ya pay for. I'm not too familiar with the Duromax generator, but I think it's made in China, could be wrong though. I think I'd go with a minimum of 8kw though.
Our house, shop and fur shed all run completely off solar, with a 12kw Perkins diesel for backup. It has an auto start for when the battery bank gets low. Hot water, cooking, clothes dryer and backup furnace is propane plumbed to a 500 gallon tank.
Our well pump is a quarter mile from the house and is over a hill. I've got a 12kw Winco propane generator set up to run a 5hp well pump thats down 625'. This generator also has an auto start and is plumbed to a 500 gallon propane tank.
We have a heat pump at the house for AC, which gets used about 6 days a year. This will run off our solar system, but it takes a lot of power to start. So I separated it out and power it with an 8.7kw generator. It's easier on our electric system this way.
Whatever generator you get I'd highly recommend that you get one that can use an auto start. It can save you a lot of grief if your house loses power when your not home. Look up the Winco 8kw propane generator. It has a built in auto start.

 

[SLC]

I am convinced that Michigan will soon see rolling blackouts due to governmental policies, above and beyond the typical weather related outages.
I intend to have a generator that will run the whole house. At my old place I did alright with a 5,000 watt generator and a sub panel that had just the critical circuits for the furnace, well pump, sump pump, etc. but here I want to be able to use whatever I want to during an outage.
Here is my question - should I go with a roll into place, manual hook up unit, or one of those permanently installed units with an automatic switch?

I really like this one: DUROMAX 13,000-Watt/10,500-Watt Tri-Fuel Remote Start Gasoline Propane Natural Gas Portable Generator with CO Alert XP13000HXT - The Home Depot
Having the flexibility with what fuel might be available seems like a good idea. I could keep it in the garage, then roll it outside, connect it to whatever fuel, plug it in to the gen input, go in the basement to flip the transfer switch, and be good to go.

But then I started thinking - I can do that now, but what about five years from now? Ten, fifteen, if God makes me stay here that long? Does it make more sense to spend more money and tie myself to one fuel option, to install a permanent generator that will automatically come on when needed, and turn off when it isn't?

I was looking at this one: Champion Power Equipment 14000-Watt Air Cooled Standby Generator with 200 Amp NEMA 3R Whole House Transfer Switch 100837 - The Home Depot

Either way, I'm looking at hiring an electrician to install the generator connection, and a plumber to run a natural gas line connection.

I rarely travel, and I work from home, so not really worried about an automatic response if the power goes out when I'm not home.
I have been known to simply roll over and go back to sleep if the power goes out during the night, and go out and hook up the generator once there is daylight. Then there was the cool down/refuel every 8 hours, often in a dark and stormy night. And switching the inputs to see if power had been restored yet or not. It would be nice to have all that happen automatically, but at this point it's not really a big deal. Though I'm guessing that perspective will change as I age.

Anyone have some advice? Similar situation?

(For those who might ask, I have a gas stove, gas fired boiler and hot water heater, rarely use the electric clothes dryer; I do like to have the tv and some lights on, there's the fridge, a couple of chest freezers and a garage door opener, and I will be installing minisplits for air conditioning.)

I had good luck for many years using a 12 KW PTO generator for my tractor. It also let me have remote power around my acreage (162 acres). As I've gotten older, my wife talked me into a propane on-demand setup. It works fine, but so far the cost per hour is about $100/hour (cost, maintenance, etc). For a couple big energy draws like the deep well water pump, I put them on a magnetic switch so there isn's a sudden super-heavy amp requirement when the Kohler generator kicks in.

 

[SLC]

One bit of advice, based on the experience an acquaintance had with his whole house generator. This guy was so proud of his new generator system and he let everyone know it. Then, a storm came up and knocked out power all over the county. Well, the storm barely got going and a tree fell on his brand-new, never-use whole house generator. He was without electricity just like the rest of us. So, my advice is to locate your generator where a tree cannot possibly fall on it.

I would also suggest setting the generator on a pedestal 2-3 feet high. That way you don't have to go dig it out of a big snowstorm. I did that and except for a 4' storm we had one year, I just shovel around it every 3-4 snows on a bright sunny day. Could also just put a roof over it, I guess. Thought about it.

 

[SLC]

I know nothing about what generator to recommend. However, you might want to think about this: If YOU can roll it outside to hook it up, someone ELSE can roll it away and take it for themselves. During the quietness of a blackout, a running engine is going to stick out like a sore thumb and draw attention to itself. You could chain it to something secure potentially, but someone could hacksaw through the generators mounting frame that you chained up. With a battery powered reciprocating saw (can be had for under $100), the frame sawing job could be completed in seconds - any noise would probably be covered by the running engine.

So depending on where you live, having something that is conveniently portable might be a negative, not a plus.

With all the portable battery tools now-a-days, you can steal about anything. That's why I have security alarms, cameras and a big gun or 30. My wife only has (3 guns.)

 

[montanabill]

Another thing to consider is how many gallons a day a large generator (over 10KW) will use if it is running continuously. They tend to suck a lot of propane and those 500 gallon (actually 400) tanks can be empty surprisingly quicky, especially if normal resuply is not available.

 

[Mountain trapper]

Another thing to consider is how many gallons a day a large generator (over 10KW) will use if it is running continuously. They tend to suck a lot of propane and those 500 gallon (actually 400) tanks can be empty surprisingly quicky, especially if normal resuply is not available.

My 12kw Perkins goes through about a quart of off road diesel per hour. I have it programed to run for 4 hours only whenever it starts. Over a 12 month average it runs less than an hour per day.
I haven't been able to calculate the cost of running my 12kw Winco propane generator yet. Besides the generator, I also have a propane heater in the pump house. I have the generator set up to start when the pressure tank drops below a certain PSI, then start the pump. When the pressure tank is full, the pump will shutdown while the generator will keep running for a few minutes then it'll shutdown too. This time of year I doubt if that generator runs more than 30 mins a day.

 

[joel]

Cabin Fever....regarding Amish and electricity...they are off grid. That's the rule in our community. Solar and propane and gas powered small engines are ok here. Not so in other communities, like the Schwartzentrubers. Depends on the community one lives in.

Can you give us the brand of solar & propane generator you use?

 

[montanabill]

My 12kw Perkins goes through about a quart of off road diesel per hour. I have it programed to run for 4 hours only whenever it starts. Over a 12 month average it runs less than an hour per day.
I haven't been able to calculate the cost of running my 12kw Winco propane generator yet. Besides the generator, I also have a propane heater in the pump house. I have the generator set up to start when the pressure tank drops below a certain PSI, then start the pump. When the pressure tank is full, the pump will shutdown while the generator will keep running for a few minutes then it'll shutdown too. This time of year I doubt if that generator runs more than 30 mins a day.

Your perkins is only for backup for the solar. vastly different than a whole house with standard appliances and no battery bank with batteries and owners that want everything to work anytime they flip a switch...

 

[Mountain trapper]

I had good luck for many years using a 12 KW PTO generator for my tractor. It also let me have remote power around my acreage (162 acres). As I've gotten older, my wife talked me into a propane on-demand setup. It works fine, but so far the cost per hour is about $100/hour (cost, maintenance, etc). For a couple big energy draws like the deep well water pump, I put them on a magnetic switch so there isn's a sudden super-heavy amp requirement when the Kohler generator kicks in.

How could any generator possibly cost "$100/hour"? My 12kw Perkins costs about $1.35 per hour in fuel. Oil change is scheduled at 500 hours. The only repairs that I've had to do on this generator is replace 2 fan belts over a 10 year period. I've got 11,000 hours on this generator now. By using your estimations that would equal over $1,000,000.

 

[Amish Heart]

Hey Joel...our whole house propane generator is a Kohler. Our solar is amish installed, what they use here. My favorite cousin's son in law's brother (ha) installs them. Solar panels on our garage roof, goes into our garage and charges three batteries at a time. Bring a charged battery in the house, hook up an inverter, and plug in what you need to plug in. We have one Millertech battery (and two car batteries). I love the Millertech because it's lightweight, but they cost alot more. For our gas portable generators, we have the Honda's that can link to each other, but singly, I can lift and move. And another gas generator on wheels that I can move around, and we got that at Sam's Club a while back.
I know that "solar" generators are sold as a unit type thing, two of my sisters bought them, I think from My Patriots or 4 Patriots or something, but they are city dwellers. They have them on a cart which makes them easier to maneuver in the house. But it's the same principal as what we have, only we have the ability to use three at a time. And it's cheaper.

 

[LadyLocust]

Before being able to answer, I would ask what your plan is as you age. Is there someone who can come help you or live with you? It’s not an easy thing to answer.
I know for me (which might not be for you) I tried to get as close to not needing power as possible. I had it down to the freezers and fridge and well pump though we had a river which was an option but not convenient. We lost power semi regularly. We shut the main and plugged in the generator (gas powered). I didn’t think it was that big of a deal. Prior to having the generator, we just did without- longest 4 days. Boiled water on wood stove and hauled buckets for flushing also- so more work.
I’d say really look at your priorities and let them guide you.

 

[viking]

Being as my DW and I are already in our upper years, we have and are still working on things to make it easier on us, getting our solar system fully set up and just this past year replacing all the deep cycle batteries makes us feel better about our aging situation, I love it that in just 14 microseconds the inverter automatically comes on with the loss of grid power. I even considering what my wifes' cousin told us about in changing all of the door knobs to lever types, like our entrance doors already have, if I have a bag of food I can just move the lever with the bag and don't have to set the bag down to turn a knob to get in. We have a generator but it's only used for extreme emergencies, so far we've only ran it twice in the approcimently 10 years we've owned it. The thing about natural gas is that it is pumped and with major grid down gas may stop being pumped, that's where propane/gasoline power may be the best, especially if you have a very large propane tank or a diesel generator and plenty of stored diesel. Yeah, I know that eventually our deep cycle lead acid batteries will go bad but by then we'll adapt to no electricity, pretty much like we did when we first moved on our land, in those days we were growing things even in winter, in worse weather than we have now, kale, broccoli, cabbage and carrots do exceptionally well in our climate. We could pick food as needed and didn't really need refrigeration.

 

[UrbanHunter]

Being older and the wife needing an array of medical equipment, started making "stand by" battery packs and solar charging arrays. What I learned is that unused power is very expensive (you pay for something and get nothing) and that to depend on solar you need almost 5 times as much capacity as your demand dictates. This is because it you have overcast days your solar output drops drastically. I also learned that placement for battery banks can be problematic depending on their chemistry, most lead acid batteries need to be in a vented space, lithium ion can have unexpected exothermic reactions, leaving LiFePO4 the only option for indoor energy storage. They cost almost 3 times as much as lead acid batteries and are not as energy dense as the lithium ion units, but they last longer, hold a charge for a long time, and do the job. I ended up setting up a bank of 8 of them for my wife's medical equipment (just enough to cover 14 hours), they do require a smart charger. I have a bank of lead acid batteries in my greenhouse along with my solar charge controllers and inverter. This gives me the ability to charge the indoor batteries from the outdoor solar/battery array using an inverter.

I have off-loaded as much of my electrical load from the grid as possible, according to the power company I have reduced my grid power use by ~20%. It is expensive power, but by using it every day I get some use from my solar and I know that everything is working on a daily basis. Then again if I get $100 worth of power every month from my initial investment, the system will eventually pay itself off.

I think that for backup power, planning is essential: You need to know what the Maximum load is that you NEED to cover (in kWs) and how long you need to cover it.... If you are planning on relying on solar you need to get a feel for the percentage of sunny days you can expect... That varies greatly by geographic location. In the US along the southern border you may get 300 sunny days a year or an 82% chance of a sunny day, where I am now it's closer to 40%.. The other thing is that you only get "good" solar power from about 1 1/2 after sunrise and before sunset (in other words you lose about 3 hours per day from what you expected), so if you are planning on 12 hour days, you may only be seeing 9 usable hours, in the winter it's worse. Your solar array need to provide all the power you need for a 24 hour period by you only get to charge your batteries during your usable hours....

Well, I went on too long, but the point is that you need to think it out carefully before you start making investments, because if you buy too small, you will find yourself replacing components (increasing costs) as your system grows due to your unplanned needs....

 

[Plainflatlander]

Being older and the wife needing an array of medical equipment, started making "stand by" battery packs and solar charging arrays. What I learned is that unused power is very expensive (you pay for something and get nothing) and that to depend on solar you need almost 5 times as much capacity as your demand dictates. This is because it you have overcast days your solar output drops drastically. I also learned that placement for battery banks can be problematic depending on their chemistry, most lead acid batteries need to be in a vented space, lithium ion can have unexpected exothermic reactions, leaving LiFePO4 the only option for indoor energy storage. They cost almost 3 times as much as lead acid batteries and are not as energy dense as the lithium ion units, but they last longer, hold a charge for a long time, and do the job. I ended up setting up a bank of 8 of them for my wife's medical equipment (just enough to cover 14 hours), they do require a smart charger. I have a bank of lead acid batteries in my greenhouse along with my solar charge controllers and inverter. This gives me the ability to charge the indoor batteries from the outdoor solar/battery array using an inverter.

I have off-loaded as much of my electrical load from the grid as possible, according to the power company I have reduced my grid power use by ~20%. It is expensive power, but by using it every day I get some use from my solar and I know that everything is working on a daily basis. Then again if I get $100 worth of power every month from my initial investment, the system will eventually pay itself off.

I think that for backup power, planning is essential: You need to know what the Maximum load is that you NEED to cover (in kWs) and how long you need to cover it.... If you are planning on relying on solar you need to get a feel for the percentage of sunny days you can expect... That varies greatly by geographic location. In the US along the southern border you may get 300 sunny days a year or an 82% chance of a sunny day, where I am now it's closer to 40%.. The other thing is that you only get "good" solar power from about 1 1/2 after sunrise and before sunset (in other words you lose about 3 hours per day from what you expected), so if you are planning on 12 hour days, you may only be seeing 9 usable hours, in the winter it's worse. Your solar array need to provide all the power you need for a 24 hour period by you only get to charge your batteries during your usable hours....

Well, I went on too long, but the point is that you need to think it out carefully before you start making investments, because if you buy too small, you will find yourself replacing components (increasing costs) as your system grows due to your unplanned needs....

Thank You! You did not go on too long at all. This will help me in my decision on how to proceed with the solar. Really only looking to power my upright freezer.