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user 5745

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Hello everyone

I'm in the process of moving away from the English smoke and up to rural Scotland for dark skies, silence and the biggest garden I can afford, with the long-term aim of disengaging much more from the Culture of Maximum Harm and becoming much more self-reliant within a wider rural community.

Looking forward to strolling through the threads!
 
Warm Welcome from the Arizona valley folks. :USA:
 
howdy from a east Texan .... and welcome to the forum and family...there's quite a few knowledgeable folks here that'll gladly tell ya what you need to know,or at least point ya in the right direction and/or give ya a good idea or 2..and by all means jump right on in with any replies you have on a topic
 
howdy from a east Texan .... and welcome to the forum and family...there's quite a few knowledgeable folks here that'll gladly tell ya what you need to know,or at least point ya in the right direction and/or give ya a good idea or 2..and by all means jump right on in with any replies you have on a topic

Cheers, Jim. I've stuck my oar in a few places, hopefully in a civil fashion. A few people seem surprised to have a British libertarian socialist on the books, and I suspect some translation issues between UK and US meanings of words, but such is life and I hope to contribute positively :) Thanks again for the welcome.
 
That's because "Libertarian Socialist" is an oxymoron.

Not really. There's nowt contradictory in people living their own lives and, in support of that, choosing to work and share with others in order to tackle mutually beneficial projects that are too big for one person alone and/or to resist imposed control and shoddy treatment from other agencies such as the state and corporations.

It's not perfect, nothing is. However, its aims of personal freedom bolstered by and bolstering voluntary mutual assistance, seem much more positive than any alternative I've seen. It encourages tolerance, personal responsibility, dignity, kindness, a willingness to muck in... lots of things good for body and soul.
 
Libertarian - you are at liberty to do what you want with your money
Socialist - other people are at liberty to do what they want with y0ur money

Mutually Exclusive Philosophies...

As I mentioned above, I think there are translation difficulties between UK and US in these words.

Libertarianism: living and let living, including having control of one's own money.

Socialism: working together, including pooling resources and products in mutual ownership and protection of the producer/worker.

Libertarian socialism: living one's own life and recognising that, as Homo sapiens is a social animal and that social association and structures can facilitate personal freedom, it can be personally useful in the short and/or long term to join in voluntary associations for certain activities, including protecting the members of the associations from harm by large organisations seeking to control in order to exploit.

A small-scale example: for ages, friends of mine with some good cider apple trees couldn't afford decent-sized kit and so laboriously pressed juice in small batches. They met some locals in the same position, pooled funds and got decent kit that they co-own. The kit goes round the small orchards and everyone helps out on pressing days. Sensible individuals deciding to share a specific item and activity and gaining faster, easier, more convivial pressings and, of course, both their own cider and swaps.

If you think that another term fits this theory and practice better than 'libertarian socialism' then I'd be interested to hear it, but please do me the courtesy of accepting my words at face value rather than ignoring or rejecting everything simply because of a difference in our understandings of one word.
 
A small-scale example: for ages, friends of mine with some good cider apple trees couldn't afford decent-sized kit and so laboriously pressed juice in small batches. They met some locals in the same position, pooled funds and got decent kit that they co-own. The kit goes round the small orchards and everyone helps out on pressing days. Sensible individuals deciding to share a specific item and activity and gaining faster, easier, more convivial pressings and, of course, both their own cider and swaps.

That is an example of people using their own money to benefit their business. How would this apply in government?
 
As I mentioned above, I think there are translation difficulties between UK and US in these words.

Libertarianism: living and let living, including having control of one's own money.

Socialism: working together, including pooling resources and products in mutual ownership and protection of the producer/worker.

Libertarian socialism: living one's own life and recognising that, as Homo sapiens is a social animal and that social association and structures can facilitate personal freedom, it can be personally useful in the short and/or long term to join in voluntary associations for certain activities, including protecting the members of the associations from harm by large organisations seeking to control in order to exploit.

A small-scale example: for ages, friends of mine with some good cider apple trees couldn't afford decent-sized kit and so laboriously pressed juice in small batches. They met some locals in the same position, pooled funds and got decent kit that they co-own. The kit goes round the small orchards and everyone helps out on pressing days. Sensible individuals deciding to share a specific item and activity and gaining faster, easier, more convivial pressings and, of course, both their own cider and swaps.

If you think that another term fits this theory and practice better than 'libertarian socialism' then I'd be interested to hear it, but please do me the courtesy of accepting my words at face value rather than ignoring or rejecting everything simply because of a difference in our understandings of one word.

Then your a libertarian, government socialism has nothing to do with it. Government is not involved in your free will co-op.
 
Then your a libertarian, government socialism has nothing to do with it. Government is not involved in your free will co-op.

The co-op is the socialism bit: workers owning the means of production. And, yes, government has little to do with it.

In the term, 'socialism' is the core and 'libertarian' the adjective that describes its particular type: the libertarianism is set within a strong socialist ethos and the socialism has its authoritarian and centralised state elements greatly reduced. For a more detailed introduction, if anyone is interested, the Wikipedia entry is a fairly short read. I'll quote from it re DrPrepper's government question, though:

'It asserts that a society based on freedom and justice can be achieved through abolishing authoritarian institutions that control certain means of production and subordinate the majority to an owning class or political and economic elite.[*] Libertarian socialists advocate for decentralized structures based on direct democracy and federal or confederal associations such as libertarian municipalism, citizens' assemblies, trade unions, and workers' councils.'

I've marked [*] because I think that this is simply one strand of establishing a better society, and that other elements are needed. Tacitus wrote 'Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.' (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws; Annals 3:27). People who have a care for kindness, honesty, fairness, tolerance, etc., and the thinking and emotional skills to negotiate, need few laws but tgere will always be conflicts of interest. I suspect that people who are selfish, brutal, callous, controlling, hate-filled and aggressive want few laws, and only those that won't be used to curb them. A utopia of loveliness is impossible and, as Maverick and I agree, would probably be extremely dull.

I'm very new to taking an active interest in politics, and have only recently identified the economic/political philosophy most suited to my personal thoughts and practice. As a result, my understanding of libertarian socialism is also very new.

As I said above, LS doesn't - can't - hold all the answers, nor can any single philosophy. I can do my best to disengage from and help to dismantle practices that I find exploitative, damaging and driven by hate and fear and which I think will, if left unchecked, lead to catastrophic environmental and socio-economic collapse. By working to dismantle them and by striving to live a more socially engaged, humane, co-operative and joyous life, I improve the chances of a better life for individuals, society, and the world as a whole. I prep both for the catastrophe and in order to make it less likely.

I may not be able to take this immediate discussion much further, as I'm rather at the limits of my current understanding and ability to explain it, but thank you for the opportunity to explore and clarify my thoughts. This has been really useful, and will help me to make more progress.

Phew, I've had five hours' sleep and really need breakfast :)
 
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I suspect that people who are selfish, brutal, callous, controlling, hate-filled and aggressive want few laws, and only those that won't be used to curb them.
So, nice, empathetic, beautiful, generous, good smelling people naturally will desire piles of restrictive laws. Got it.


[/QUOTE] As I said above, LS doesn't - can't - hold all the answers, nor can any single philosophy. I can do my best to disengage from and help to dismantle practices that I find exploitative, damaging and driven by hate and fear and which I think will, if left unchecked, lead to catastrophic environmental and socio-economic collapse. [/QUOTE]

Can you please name some examples of these practices?

[/QUOTE] I may not be able to take this immediate discussion much further, as I'm rather at the limits of my current understanding and ability to explain it, but thank you for the opportunity to explore and clarify my thoughts. This has been really useful, and will help me to make more progress.

Phew, I've had five hours' sleep and really need breakfast :)[/QUOTE]

Hmm, no. I'm not letting you off the hook because you are sleepy.

Adding " socialism" to Libertarianism sounds like a great way to co-opt, and eventually corrupt, one of the few sociopolitical theories that espouses freedom for me, AND for thee. Why? As a Libertarian, you would be free to group up and buy apple presses, no need for socialism, the definition of which is https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

I live now in a place where, depending on the season ( and some family and/or friend strife) up to eight people work together to make stuff, grow stuff, and buy stuff. Trust me, there has to be leadership, or two things get accomplished. Jack, and ****.
 
Thanks for the explanation Bluejoy. I would advise not calling that "socialist" when you are talking to an American. We know what co-ops are. At least in rural areas we do. That type of "socialism" can only work effectively on a small scale where everyone knows each other and you can quickly identify freeloaders.
 
So, nice, empathetic, beautiful, generous, good smelling people naturally will desire piles of restrictive laws. Got it.

'As I said above, LS doesn't - can't - hold all the answers, nor can any single philosophy. I can do my best to disengage from and help to dismantle practices that I find exploitative, damaging and driven by hate and fear and which I think will, if left unchecked, lead to catastrophic environmental and socio-economic collapse.'

Can you please name some examples of these practices?

'I may not be able to take this immediate discussion much further, as I'm rather at the limits of my current understanding and ability to explain it, but thank you for the opportunity to explore and clarify my thoughts. This has been really useful, and will help me to make more progress.

'Phew, I've had five hours' sleep and really need breakfast :)'

Hmm, no. I'm not letting you off the hook because you are sleepy.

Adding " socialism" to Libertarianism sounds like a great way to co-opt, and eventually corrupt, one of the few sociopolitical theories that espouses freedom for me, AND for thee. Why? As a Libertarian, you would be free to group up and buy apple presses, no need for socialism, the definition of which is https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

I live now in a place where, depending on the season ( and some family and/or friend strife) up to eight people work together to make stuff, grow stuff, and buy stuff. Trust me, there has to be leadership, or two things get accomplished. Jack, and ****.

I have no reason to trust you when you don't read for comprehension and argue poorly.

I didn't ask to be 'let off the hook' for sleepiness but, rather, stated that 'I may not be able to take this immediate discussion [by which I meant the political philosophy] much further, as I'm rather at the limits of my current understanding and ability to explain it.' The tired and hungry statement was a separate paragraph, intended as a bit of daft humour.

I live in a place where my local grocer is a successful, expanding and award-winning workers' co-op with 71 members, all of whom are both managing directors and workers on equal pay. They accomplish a hell of a lot and are not alone in doing so.

Words meanings shift and always have done. The Mirriam Webster entry that you link to gives three distinct definitions of socialism, the first of which contains two options. The definition closest to that used in libertarian socialism is the first one, using the 'collective' option rather than the 'government' one. As I've explained, this is then modified by the 'libertarian' element.

Examples: acts of terrorism committed by extremists of any religion; the rise of neo-nazism; relentless overconsumption; petro-chemical fertilised mono-crop agriculture; religious fundamentalism of every flavour; religious and political hypocrisy and willy-waving; corporate greed driving down working conditions; massive global reliance on fossil fuels as if they aren't finite. All are easy to look up if you want to know more and there are few, if any, easy solutions.
 
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Thanks for the explanation Bluejoy. I would advise not calling that "socialist" when you are talking to an American. We know what co-ops are. At least in rural areas we do. That type of "socialism" can only work effectively on a small scale where everyone knows each other and you can quickly identify freeloaders.

Thanks for the civil response and the suggestion. I don't know of a better UK English word at the moment, and wonder if there's a word in US English that covers those elements of LS without causing so much upset?

I take your point about the small-scaleness of it, but I hope that humans - so flexible and adventurous - might find a way to make it work more widely.
 
I have no reason to trust you when you don't read for comprehension and argue poorly.

I didn't ask to be 'let off the hook' for sleepiness but, rather, stated that 'I may not be able to take this immediate discussion [by which I meant the political philosophy] much further, as I'm rather at the limits of my current understanding and ability to explain it.' The tired and hungry statement was a separate paragraph, intended as a bit of daft humour.

I live in a place where my local grocer is a successful, expanding and award-winning workers' co-op with 71 members, all of whom are both managing directors and workers on equal pay. They accomplish a hell of a lot and are not alone in doing so.

Words meanings shift and always have done. The Mirriam Webster entry that you link to gives three distinct definitions of socialism, the first of which contains two options. The definition closest to that used in libertarian socialism is the first one, using the 'collective' option rather than the 'government' one. As I've explained, this is then modified by the 'libertarian' element.

Examples: acts of terrorism committed by extremists of any religion; the rise of neo-nazism; relentless overconsumption; petro-chemical fertilised mono-crop agriculture; religious fundamentalism of every flavour; religious and political hypocrisy and willy-waving; corporate greed driving down working conditions; massive global reliance on fossil fuels as if they aren't finite. All are easy to look up if you want to know more and there are few, if any, easy solutions.

Ok. No problem.
 

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