Cache Tests

[Silent Bob]

Our team has toyed with some interesting ways to cache material along our exfil route from Texas. What works and what does not work. First, what doesn't work, the old time honored 50 cal. can. Nice and neat right, everything is in a nice square box, but it's not moisture proof, we tried the zip-lock bag for some testable perishable and a few different calibers of ammo. We wrapped the ammo can in 4mil plastic wrap and applied an old piece of carpet at the bottom of the hole with a small wooden pallet to allow the can to rest evenly with the floor of the hole. Using cardboard (excess found at a local store) we built the walls around the side and placed a 1 inch sheet of fiberboard as the top. We placed them in about 3 feet of earth in early summer and dug them out in May. Here is what we found, the food (basically a can of beans, a can of spam and an MRE). The can of beans had pitted rust, possibly because of moisture and the interior showed some effects of the Texas summer. Running a bacti-test on the beans and spam, we found no appreciable bacteria that may cause a foodborne illness, but the quality of the food degraded based on taste. Okay, spam taste has to be acquired, but it was edible. The MRE another whole different story (this was factory fresh, lot date only 1 month old). The MRE showed some signs of early of breakdown in the primary meal packet and also noticed that the hot sauce had broken down. We estimate the average ground temperature was at least 90 degrees, we learned from our mistakes by placing a disposable thermometer on the next cache test. As for the ammo, some of the ammo was affected by the moisture, on range testing, we had about 10 misfires of 5.56 per 200 rounds, not saying that those were attributed to the moisture, but they were high grade rounds used on the test and 45 cal/9mm cal faired about the same using same ratio. 12 guage 00 buck faired better, we had no misfires. Note: That year, our ground moisture was up, so this attributed also to our test.

On our next cache test, which was three years ago, we did a few things different, we first bought a high grade plastic trash can from Lowes, but any good plastic trashcan will do. We then vacuum sealed the food cans (with a dry-all packet that can be bought from any reputable company) using wife's vacuum sealer (when she was not at home of course), then placed them in a cardboard box at the bottom of the T.C. The MRE's we kept in the primary container packed factory tight). Using same theory as above, except we mil wrapped the exterior of the cardboard, we then dug our hole deeper this time down to a depth of 6 feet. Then we stored this one for two years before opening it up. Presto we found no problems at all. This works well with ammo and batteries also, except we used a few more dryall packs and sealed everything tight like bricks using the vacuum sealer (this time we didn't use Mom's, she gave us one for an Xmas present). Note: We have had a drought for the last two years, so ground moisture is low, so this may have contributed to our excellent results.

Gasoline and diesel is a bit trickier, but we found adding the fuel additive and using more larger plastic bins (that are sold at Wal-mart for Xmas Trees works well).

Oh a word to the wise. GPS's are great for marking, but use the time honored magnetic compass and map, doing both azimuth and back azimuth marks as your primary, just in case the GPS net goes down. Sure would save you time, if the tree or whatever landmark you used moved or was burned down during a forest fire.

Our team has four caches sites along our route and another two along our 2nd BOL

My friend JimLE also added this to our discussion and yes much of what he suggested we adapted to our real caches, A big Thanks to Jim's comments:

there are subjects on the matter of burying items for later use and all when it comes to having caches sites ,might try using search at the top right corner of this page.just type in specific words.. caches sites and pvc pipe..what yall did is a good idea..one thing i've learned over the years..is the deeper you dig,the cooler the ground will be.so if yall dig down,lets say 10 feet.then bury said items thats to be buryed.then they'll stand a better chance of lasting longer compared to being buryed at 6 feet..and of course make sure it's either in a no flood area..or get a better water proof container to put the items into.then bury it in a flood area thats not flooded certain times of the year.if not most of the year..

 

[rudyc]

i want to try something like this but with a five gallon container from lowes or home depot, with the gamma top, since they seem to lock in place. or is there a different container to use? around five gallons worth of stuff seems appropriate to what i want to bury.

 

[Silent Bob]

Rudyc,

It would be acceptable, the ones that you are talking about are water tight and yes the gamma seals one do work. We placed communication equipment (4 FRS, 2 Shortwave/AM/FM and a GPS) in a container with a ton of dryall packets. We showed no adverse affects at them and this is in red clay most noted along the Red River area. Four of our cache sites are located in very mountainous areas that are susceptible to Spring run off, but last years inspection of the sight showed that during routine inspection of material, we saw no appreciable problems. We recommend that if you are storing items such as comm and fuel at your cache that you inspect them at least annually. Food cache are okay to be inspected every two years. Since our cache sites are spread in four states, we recommend a team of two people with a fairly good GPS system to check your cache sites. We additionally bought from the USGS topographical maps for all our cache site locations. Each team leader and any of our family members who are geographically separated (example, my child is in college), maintains not only the GPS coordinates, but maps in her BOB in her vehicle.

You can buy topo maps from USGS directly, use the locator to find the right map of your area. We have an extensive number of topo maps of our BOL, not to mention topo map of our 2d BOL location. We are working to get topo maps for our 3rd BOL. When considering getting topo maps, I recommend 20 square grid map for your TOC. Each member should at least keep a topo map in their BOB and one on each person when you are at your BOL. Also vehicles should have topo maps for your exfil routes and also each team leader should have a Topo map of identified with your rally point and also your exfil route to your 2d BOL. This sounds like a ton of maps, but I can assure you will pay big dividends in a real event. We have maps also in our cache sites too.

https://store.usgs.gov/b2c_usgs/b2c...5152894144959End;saplb_*=(J2EE8933300)8933350


Hope this helps.

 

[getnready]

Very impressive!

I admire your tenacity. Obviously alot of planning went into this operation and iI know it is worth it. I hope I can eventually talk my husband into letting me bury some of our stash.

 

[jimLE]

the topo maps in each situation is a great idea.especially when a gps isnt of help because it dont show what you need to know,or aint working.or some other situation of no use when it comes to going from point A to point B

 

[Silent Bob]

Very impressive!

I admire your tenacity. Obviously alot of planning went into this operation and iI know it is worth it. I hope I can eventually talk my husband into letting me bury some of our stash.

Getnready,

Good morning, start small. This was not an overnight thing, we even had arguments over where to locate the cache sites. I became the arbiter because I had no opinion, other than the cache sites that lead to our BOL. I am pretty familiar with the ingress routes to Montana and know which routes to avoid, certainly using the I-25 from C-Springs to Denver is out of the question, it is the direct route but will be road blocked off by roving bandits or communities that control that stretch of road. People are going to band together after the initial event, it is the only alternative or either band or starve. We are all business professionals, I am also military retired and wife works for a good oil company. We didn't do all of this immediately and we pooled much of our resources into each cache. We know that some might not be able to take the direct route or for example one of us is on vacation or on business, the cache might be the difference maker.

Some advice, food, either MRE or Dehydrated, each have extensive history and data that supports long-shelf life. Shy away from store bought food and home canning (if that is your thing). Both of these have short shelf lives and require constant rotation. I know their are a ton of people who are going to say "Silent Bob", your way off on the store bought stuff, but let me put it to you this way...I inspected food in the military, attended tons of training on food storage, spoke to authorities who the military purchases and they have given me a pretty good idea how long things are pretty safe. Example, pineapple or any citrus fruit begins to break down right after cooling at the fruit plant. Don't believe me, email Delmonte, they will give you the company line, but tell them that you are a prepper. Ask them to give you the quality data on a particular line item with food testing data...it might take a few emails, but they will get it, once you explain to them what you plan to use the food for. Most of the food testers might have an opinion of you, but you will get the data from their info office. I know I digressed a bit...sorry, but here is an alternative, place a can of pineapple slices in the garage during the summer (temps normally get into 110 in my Texas garage or put it in the attic about 130). Allow it to stay in that location during the summer, then open the can in the fall, inspect the lining of the can, do you notice detinning (this is where the inside of the primary container (lined can) has begun to either discolor or show some action from the acid of the fruit, typically die-hard like me, will take some of the syrup using a spoon and swish it around in my mouth and then spit it out...if it tastes off, then this is an indicator that the chemical reaction has occurred from heated storage. Even exposing an MRE or Dehydrated food at those temps will cause the shelf life to be impacted, hence the recommended 60 degrees. No one has large walk-in refrigerators, but in the military depots, we store the MRE's on pallets about 8 high and run them the entire floor of the facility, storing them at 40 degrees, the military can keep these lots invariably way past the recommended shelf-life date. Once MRE lots hit the inspection test date, they are inspected my military food inspectors, the lots are sampled, and a certain amount are destroyed as part of the food inspection process to determine whether they should be extended and tightened inspections done on that particular lot. The military food inspector depending on the lot size can also mix lots, either way, we are doing a good analysis about the serviceability and wholesomeness (meaning...fit for human consumption).

Note: Any cans that are crushed or dented, should be suspected as not fit for long term storage. I inspect each dehydrated can and MRE box when I purchases them. They are then inventoried and lot numbered with the date purchased and date manufactured. This allows me to do a complete inventory, any split lots...like what we are using in cache are also included in another lot (but not grand lotted because the items are stored differently). Like JimLE said, the deeper the hole, the better the storage temp...so here is an example, you store dehydrated food at your home, lets say the ambient air temperature is a constant 70 degrees in your home, but you store your cache (this temp is 60), your not going to grand lot the inspection of these items because of storage condition. Provided you used the same lot and purchased the items at the same time, your cache items provided no moisture has come in contact with your shipping or storage container enough to impact the primary container (can or MRE plastic packet), should be in better condition and more serviceable (wholesome) then you above ground items.

As for my last recommendation why I don't use store bought food or home canning, you don't have a monogram of the food (MRE's and even those number 10 dehydrated cans have one). You might have to ask for them by the producer, but these are what the quality assurance folks at the plant use to confirm the quality of their product. With home canning, you have nothing to check to see whether it is wholesome and still of quality, other than you gut...no offense, but botulism (food toxin related to improper canning) scares the crap out of me and ruins my day. With store bought foods, its about the same way, no monogram, and you would be wasting all your time, trying to figure out what line items are and making sure that rotate the food has to be a high priority for store bought food because the recommended sell by date is only about a year once it hits your grocery store floor.

Let me know if I can ever help direct you in anyway. I am usually pretty busy during the week, but will respond to most posts.

 

[nbagreats01]

I actually just dug up my test cache after 8 months. It was a Crossman BB container. Closed it tight with some duct tape to keep water out. I had a mini flashlight and other things in there. After a ton of rain over the summer and some terrible cold snaps, the inside was fine. Everything still worked.

 

[Silent Bob]

Yes, metal works for the short-term but because of moisture, inside could be compromised. 8 months is fine, its when you begin to leave it for a few years. We have a few cache sites that are hitting 4 years, the plastic containers are moisture resistant, additionally since we vacuum pack the primary shipping container with an oxygen pack, their is no moisture and no oxygen. No oxygen for the most part, shells and ammo, gun powder, food is safe from bacteria growth, etc. note: make sure non-food items are in separate containers. Gasoline, lubricants stored in another cache in another hole. At one of our cache sites, we have six holes, all marked via GPS plugger (mil standard). One of these caches are on located close to federal lands. Others are on farmer lands with expressed permission, in one case, we are renting the area for two bottles of Scotch Whiskey, Single Malt, 12 year, which I get from my base exchange liquor store (no tax and about 2o dollars cheaper). What ever works and my farmer friend, well if it is a true SHTF, he is a rest stop for our team, where we can beddown, reoutfit, refuel, etc.

Congrats on your cache. Hope this helped you.