Can You be HONEST, at least to yourself only.

[Neb]

Fire considers "wire" a non-barrier. Fire laughs its ass off at wire. When confronted with fire strategically placed, everything shifts to the advantage of the fire starter.

Being aware of this truth/reality massively pisses me off. Even with thermal rifle optics, the fire starter wins.

YES, I fully understand what you mean by inside/outside the wire.

What would motivate burning someone out?

The fire would destroy any resources.

Puzzled

Ben

 

[Aerindel]

What would motivate burning someone out?

The fire would destroy any resources.

Puzzled

Ben

A point I often make myself.

But not very important, because there will be a million fires started on accident by dump people bugging out to the woods in SHTF.

 

[Neb]

I am reminded of the video game 'Frostpunk'

Not getting into details too much, the game starts out with a small group of 'Workers' 'Engineers' and 'Children' in a harsh arctic environment that progressively grows colder.

You start out with no shelter, and a couple days of food. There is a central Generator that provides heat around it and can power up and heat other facilities that you can choose to build.

Workers can run lumber mills, go hunting for food and cook food.

Engineers can harvest existing resources, provide medical care, or cook food and most importantly, are the only ones that can invent new technology.

Children can harvest, or cook but can't do other jobs and are likely to become sick or injured while working.

Soon, other survivors arrive, and you can choose to accept them or not. Each survivor is more potential work, but also needs housing, and food, and often arrive sick. Sick people can do no work, but eat the same amount of food until they are healed, which requires one engineer per person per day.

Early in the game, the engineers are somewhat of a liability as they eat as much as a worker, but can only do a few jobs. The children are even worse.

And you can let them die, or refuse to take in more. You can choose to only accept workers, which gives you immediate bonuses production ability.

There is also a 'hope' and a 'discontent' meter, if hope falls to 0 or discontent hits 100% you are ousted or executed as leader, and the worse things get, the less effect your decisions have as people are less responsive. For instance, if you force the children to work dangerous jobs hope falls, and falls even faster when they die from accidents, even if they are making enough food to keep everyone alive you can still lose the game from sheer misery.

However, if you organize your colony so well that you can keep all the engineers alive, even as dead weight, they become invaluable, as over time they create labor saving advancements that allow you to do more with fewer workers. These advancements are the only way you ever get out of a hand to mouth survivor state, and into a city building advancement state.

They are also how you survive crisis where sheer work isn't useful but technology is, for instance there are storms where its too cold to hunt or grow food but advancements in food processing efficency etc make a huge difference in how long your stores last, or medical disasters where you have a large number of sick workers at one time.

What it boils down to, is that is that although the most valuable people short term are workers, engineer type people are ultimately the only way to survive, but if you can't meet the basic requirements of food and shelter immediately that becomes moot, and neither matter, if you can't keep the trust of the people.

So if the game plays out as you described it would be advantageous to have engineers that could work and workers that could be upgraded to engineers.

Ben

 

[Hardcalibres]

What would motivate burning someone out?

The fire would destroy any resources.

Puzzled

Ben

Desperation, hate and rage are not founded upon logic.

If you successfully defend against a raid.....then you should expect the next assault will be founded upon hate and rage.

......and the resources they may be after might be those outside your dwelling.

 

[Hardcalibres]

So if the game plays out as you described it would be advantageous to have engineers that could work and workers that could be upgraded to engineers.

Ben

B8

.....only if you can keep everyone you choose in the early stages alive for the later stages.

 

[Sourdough]

Can't shoot fire.

Although part of my Defcon system for fire, is strapping on a gun.

Unfortunately, there is an unbelievable amount of arson and corruption in fire fighting.

I was actually on this fire, all night. It was paged out as the highest level of call, a state wide emergency for all available responders.

Turns out it was started BY THE MAN WHO PAGED IT OUT.

https://www.montanarightnow.com/kal...CVt41JbgPFZerQzpZkZDESKL3NjXkaszi27LX1THjzUAU

WE all know the wisdom of "Never underestimate your advisory".

I'll add: Never underestimate "CRAZY" people.

 

[Aerindel]

So if the game plays out as you described it would be advantageous to have engineers that could work and workers that could be upgraded to engineers.

Ben

Indeed it would. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way in the game, and only partially works that way in the real world. No matter how many times they tell former coal miners to become computer coders, it doesn't seem to work.

 

[Sourdough]

What would motivate burning someone out?

The fire would destroy any resources.

Puzzled

Ben

Just don't like you, maybe your race, creed, your color, your religion, something you said, etc..

Also we might not care about any "Physical Thing", maybe we shoot all the males and capture the ladies (those that are not too ugly or obese).

 

[Neb]

Just don't like you, maybe your race, creed, your color, your religion, something you said, etc..

Also we might not care about any "Physical Thing", maybe we shoot all the males and capture the ladies (those that are not too ugly or obese).

In hard times help mates that a strong are an asset. The concept of beauty will change to more pragmatic features.

Re: Mad Max (my words not yours) rampaging raging hordes

I strongly believe the life span of a pillaging gang is limited to how long the leader can provide for their followers by pillaging etc. They would be dependent on finding full pantries. A hit and miss plan. If an existing gang went all Viking how long would it take for them to get to your place?

I am betting on the Mad Max types lasting 3 weeks on average. After that the focus shifts from piling up bodies to composting them for the garden. Nuff of that for now.

Ben

 

[elkhound]

seen this today...skill,experience,knowledge etc... coupled with patience and just simple work...read text to see how long they keep apples.this is survival skills!

 

[Sourdough]

In hard times help mates that a strong are an asset. The concept of beauty will change to more pragmatic features.

Re: Mad Max (my words not yours) rampaging raging hordes

I strongly believe the life span of a pillaging gang is limited to how long the leader can provide for their followers by pillaging etc. They would be dependent on finding full pantries. A hit and miss plan. If an existing gang went all Viking how long would it take for them to get to your place?

I am betting on the Mad Max types lasting 3 weeks on average. After that the focus shifts from piling up bodies to composting them for the garden. Nuff of that for now.

Ben

Ben........Please know that I both like and respect you. Therefore, as a friend I request you consider that your response "might" be more wishful, then probable. We are all tormented suffering through our desired vs. probable outcome.

 

[LadyLocust]

seen this today...skill,experience,knowledge etc... coupled with patience and just simple work...read text to see how long they keep apples.this is survival skills!

I’ve been doing similar with my onions and still have plenty. Year before last we ate our last tomato from the vine the week before Christmas (tried doing that again this year but got a super freeze that nixed them).

 

[Amish Heart]

Our tomatoes held out till two weeks before Christmas. But all those flats of green tomatoes had to be checked twice a week.

 

[Neb]

Ben........Please know that I both like and respect you. Therefore, as a friend I request you consider that your response "might" be more wishful, then probable. We are all tormented suffering through our desired vs. probable outcome.

Yup.

I agree strongly that your out look differs from mine. Fair enough. Time will tell how it runs for all of us.

Ben

 

[rice paddy daddy]

Preppers obsess about their firearms and their ammo volume, maybe their thermal rifle optics.

To quote Sam Colt: God made man, Colt made men "equal". Problem is fire is a horrific monster. It exterminates man & his firearm.

Fire will be (It is) super-SUPER SHTF.

After a wildfire came down our road, thankfully on the other side, we cleared all trees and brush from about two acres surrounding the house.
Not worried about fire, not worried about someone sneaking up unseen either.

 

[Aerindel]

In hard times help mates that a strong are an asset. The concept of beauty will change to more pragmatic features.

Re: Mad Max (my words not yours) rampaging raging hordes

I strongly believe the life span of a pillaging gang is limited to how long the leader can provide for their followers by pillaging etc. They would be dependent on finding full pantries. A hit and miss plan. If an existing gang went all Viking how long would it take for them to get to your place?

I am betting on the Mad Max types lasting 3 weeks on average. After that the focus shifts from piling up bodies to composting them for the garden. Nuff of that for now.

Ben

I agree.

Its important to remember that mongols where herders. Vikings where farmers. Raiding was a short term seasonal activity to supplement a agrarian lifestyle. Just like everybody else.

No society in the world can survive long term as raiders. The raider has to be successful over and over again, coming away from nearly every attack full of supplies, while taking little to no injury themselves. A ten person raiding party would have to take down a homestead with a years worth of food for one person, about once a month. If they only take a weeks worth of food, or if they take just one causality per assault, in just a few months they cease to exist.

I think your three week estimate would apply to all but the most successful, and the most successful might last a year at the most. The math is hopelessly against the raiders.

 

[Hardcalibres]

I agree.

Its important to remember that mongols where herders. Vikings where farmers. Raiding was a short term seasonal activity to supplement a agrarian lifestyle. Just like everybody else.

No society in the world can survive long term as raiders. The raider has to be successful over and over again, coming away from nearly every attack full of supplies, while taking little to no injury themselves. A ten person raiding party would have to take down a homestead with a years worth of food for one person, about once a month. If they only take a weeks worth of food, or if they take just one causality per assault, in just a few months they cease to exist.

I think your three week estimate would apply to all but the most successful, and the most successful might last a year at the most. The math is hopelessly against the raiders.

You bring up good points about the Mongols and Vikings......but that also raises an inconvenient problem with the "raiders will have finite life" argument.

If raiders don't just kill everyone they meet......and instead they capture the able bodied but subservient ones as slaves, then they could grow their own food, establish sustainable supply systems and indeed be around forever.

If they diversify into protection rackets, then they could financially enslave whole areas.

Raiding could then become more an opportunistic sideline or indeed just something they do to potential threats and to demonstrate their dominance over an area. They may well use extreme violence as simply a way to keep the slaves and peasants in line.

Those who rule by terror may not necessarily be interested in what you have.

I have the advantage of having seen a lot of the above first hand.

 

[Aerindel]

If they diversify into protection rackets, then they could financially enslave whole areas.

Indeed!

This is what is called......civilization. Its the most likely way for SHTF to actually come to end and rebuilding to start. We all live under the end stage of this system as we speak.

Its something all 'successful' preppers will have to deal with on the other side of the crisis.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Indeed!

This is what is called......civilization. Its the most likely way for SHTF to actually come to end and rebuilding to start. We all live under the end stage of this system as we speak.

The raiders might be holding up banners with American Express, Visa and Mastercard on them then.

 

[Aerindel]

And just like what happened in the face of the vikings, and the mongols, the farmers and burghers got tired of paying tribute, and organized in to mutual protection groups, that compelled taxes from the members for mutual defense.....which is almost identical a protection racket. The only advantage being that the resources stay in the community (at the top of the community)...and so built up empires and countries in their own right.

There is no freedom from SOMEONE wanting your stuff. I merely say that the period of someone trying to survive by killing you and taking all your stuff, will be a short lived dead end.

For most rural people the first serious 'challenger' to their SHTF homestead, is probably going to be the local sheriff knocking on your door saying he needs one family member to join the Valley Defense force or whatever and that you need to pay 10% of your supplies to the posse so they can 'keep the peace' during this 'temporary crisis'.

Which oddly enough is rather close to what is going on in my life AS WE SPEAK.

 

[Sourdough]

This article is surprisingly relevant to much of this thread. But its real worth is that it answers questions with believable answers.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/fed-chair-powell-just-said-quiet-part-out-loud

 

[randyt]

And just like what happened in the face of the vikings, and the mongols, the farmers and burghers got tired of paying tribute, and organized in to mutual protection groups, that compelled taxes from the members for mutual defense.....which is almost identical a protection racket. The only advantage being that the resources stay in the community (at the top of the community)...and so built up empires and countries in their own right.

There is no freedom from SOMEONE wanting your stuff. I merely say that the period of someone trying to survive by killing you and taking all your stuff, will be a short lived dead end.

For most rural people the first serious 'challenger' to their SHTF homestead, is probably going to be the local sheriff knocking on your door saying he needs one family member to join the Valley Defense force or whatever and that you need to pay 10% of your supplies to the posse so they can 'keep the peace' during this 'temporary crisis'.

Which oddly enough is rather close to what is going on in my life AS WE SPEAK.

Well yea, the sheriff needs to take your supplies to distribute for the common good. His share being of course the largest portion

 

[Frodo]

What do I bring to the table?
Nothing, Would love to say my glowing personality, but the truth is I am a grumpy old man
All I have to offer is years of my life experience
I have been
A warroir
A lover
A father
A tinkerer
Scoundrel and vagabond
I make my own rules and can only survive as the alpha
For these reasons I prefer to walk my own path. And will happily trade with you , fight with you, but will not live among you

 

[SoJer]

EVERYBODY IS REPLACEABLE!

Sorry Mz Pearl, I have to contest this - There has simply been No One (yet-Born, at least) to this day who could 'out-Wooden-Spoon' my Great Grandmother, or who could 'out-Amazing-Pasta-Sauce' my Grandmother (not even my Mother... but don't send her this post or I'm a Gonne....

The people at the top who caused the company to be unprofitable will fire people so they can keep lining their pockets at the expense of others.

Very True Sir Morgan.. The 'First Rule of Management' is that in Every Company, there exists One Person who Exceptionally-knows 'what's going on' / Exactly-how to keep the Co prosperous and glowing with happy Employees. This person must be Found and Immediately Fired.

If you look at all the stuff I carry around with me in the pockets of my cargo pants ... I'm fairly well equipped for at least the little day-to-day emergencies/inconveniences. That's kind of the point ...

Well you Don't Say! Something Else we can stoutly-Agree on.. https://i.ibb.co/f8CngYd/EDC.jpg (and, actually, due to my 'Never miss a chance to be a Smartass'... Yes, I Now even carry a... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0831CWFNL/ ) ..strictly a 'conversation-piece' mind you.. Bit small to waersh the hands in...

OK, time to be serious, here... One factor in this all I have been thinking about lately (and, pondering starting a Thread on this facet.. TBD) is the conundrum that people will face when it comes "Time" to employ the 'leverage' of violence.

..I'm Not talking about 'Will I have the 'stones' to Use it' - Ergo: Not the 'moral dilemma' aspect of using violence vs Not - but rather, for those of us who have a more 'Conservative nature' (ie: those who have a 'Bible-based / groomed conscience' vs those who Don't (or, those who simply reject such as irrelevant, etc (ie: the 'Jeffrey Dahmers' / Cartel Capos / Street-Gangs, etc, etc)) ....Being acutely tuned into knowing 'When' to use it.

Ergo: For those who largely lack 'morals' / principles, (ie: the Lib-Zommies (who likely will Also be among the Most unprepared / Most entitled / quickest to turn to violence, etc - Just like Now.. ) their Lack of restraint can actually be a 'tactical Advantage', if those who are more 'Conservative', don't Recognize that 'imminent danger' (of some 'hair-triggered Zommie' with an IED, or hidden weapon, etc..) and are inclined to Trust at All (ie: 'Trust but Verify' - noble and all, but that can actually get ya Killed right quick..)

It's truly a conundrum that fascinates me (and I bet it could be a good Thread / discussion, etc) - and - one that, really, necessitates being 'Honest' with ones' self - Not only 'Will I Pull the Trigger', but.. Being honest as-to 'Am I a good judge of When that Has to happen'. Critically-Important 'Training Op', IMO, if-not..

jd

 

[Frodo]

Sorry Mz Pearl, I have to contest this - There has simply been No One (yet-Born, at least) to this day who could 'out-Wooden-Spoon' my Great Grandmother, or who could 'out-Amazing-Pasta-Sauce' my Grandmother (not even my Mother... but don't send her this post or I'm a Gonne....



Very True Sir Morgan.. The 'First Rule of Management' is that in Every Company, there exists One Person who Exceptionally-knows 'what's going on' / Exactly-how to keep the Co prosperous and glowing with happy Employees. This person must be Found and Immediately Fired.



Well you Don't Say! Something Else we can stoutly-Agree on.. https://i.ibb.co/f8CngYd/EDC.jpg (and, actually, due to my 'Never miss a chance to be a Smartass'... Yes, I Now even carry a... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0831CWFNL/ ) ..strictly a 'conversation-piece' mind you.. Bit small to waersh the hands in...

OK, time to be serious, here... One factor in this all I have been thinking about lately (and, pondering starting a Thread on this facet.. TBD) is the conundrum that people will face when it comes "Time" to employe the 'leverage' of violence.

..I'm Not talking about 'Will I have the 'stones' to Use it' - Ergo: Not the 'moral dilemma' aspect of using violence vs Not - but rather, for those of us who have a more 'Conservative nature' (ie: those who have a 'Bible-based / groomed conscience' vs those who Don't (or, those who simply reject such as irrelevant, etc (ie: the 'Jeffrey Dahmers' / Cartel Capos / Street-Gangs, etc, etc)) ....Being acutely tuned into knowing 'When' to use it.

Ergo: For those who largely lack 'morals' / principles, (ie: the Lib-Zommies (who likely will Also be among the Most unprepared / Most entitled / quickest to turn to violence, etc - Just like Now.. ) their Lack of restraint can actually be a 'tactical Advantage', if those who are more 'Conservative', don't Recognize that 'imminent danger' (of some 'hair-triggered Zommie' with an IED, or hidden weapon, etc..) and are inclined to Trust at All (ie: 'Trust but Verify' - noble and all, but that can actually get ya Killed right quick..)

It's truly a conundrum that fascinates me (and I bet it could be a good Thread / discussion, etc) - and - one that, really, necessitates being 'Honest' with ones' self - Not only 'Will I Pull the Trigger', but.. Being honest as-to 'Am I a good judge of When that Has to happen'. Critically-Important 'Training Op', IMO, if-not..

jd

I have often pondered this myself and have come very close to crossing the line
We constantly have looseranna poachers sneak onto our posted land
So Inhave come up with my own rules
1st encounter, I introduce myself and invite them to leave peacefully
2nd encounter,
I have not met a poacher yet that was stupid enough to come back. All that awaits is smashed windows, flat tires and bullet holes.

 

[Frodo]

My close encounter with a poacher

Few years back, I just got home from the hospital after having my knee replaced, I am on the couch happily in a pAin pill not give a whip type of mood I hear a very loud gun shot . Damn!! That’s close!!
I hobble to the door and see a truck in the street in front of my house Ahhhh. Front door is approx 75 yards from the rd
Dude is taking another shot at a deer
Nope!!!! I started shooting overbhis head
He jumps in the truck and flips me off
Did a one leg hop to the truck and took off after him. Caught up to him on the highway and took his picture. Then gave it to the game warden
Broad daylight shooting from the road in front of my house.

 

[Faez]

The **** has hit the fan and long ago. The only difference is as time progresses, the amount has been increased so now while many are waiting for the big daddy **** load to hit, a glance in the mirror would reveal they are already **** faced and blinded to the point of being delusional.

Since it has already hit, then do today what you must, instead of creating possible senecios for tomorrow. Virtual survival with different survival scenarios, is for gamers, not homesteaders.

There are so many proposed senecios of doomsday and how some plan to survive, that many have lost sight of the importance of daily living and all it entails. I haven't raised and harvested one tomato or killed a single chicken, while pounding on my laptop keyboard.

 

[SoJer]

The **** has hit the fan and long ago. The only difference is as time progresses, the amount has been increased so now while many are waiting for the big daddy **** load to hit, a glance in the mirror would reveal they are already **** faced and blinded to the point of being delusional.

Since it has already hit, then do today what you must, instead of creating possible senecios for tomorrow. Virtual survival with different survival scenarios, is for gamers, not homesteaders.

Spot on. The very Essence of one of our most-Seasoned Members most salient tropes: 'Live Like it Already Happened'. Yep, Amen x11.

jd