Cashless Society

[bkt]

Is there a problem if we refuse to use the "responsible digital assets" and go with a barter system instead?

I'm not saying the latter would be easy, but I will not have my purchases tracked. Period. And the irony is my purchases are boring as all get-out...nothing anyone would object to. But I value my privacy.

 

[Magus]

Is there a problem if we refuse to use the "responsible digital assets" and go with a barter system instead?

I'm not saying the latter would be easy, but I will not have my purchases tracked. Period. And the irony is my purchases are boring as all get-out...nothing anyone would object to. But I value my privacy.

The IRS would have a spasmodic bull elephant splatter fit in their drawers!

 

[Neb]

Is there a problem if we refuse to use the "responsible digital assets" and go with a barter system instead?

I'm not saying the latter would be easy, but I will not have my purchases tracked. Period. And the irony is my purchases are boring as all get-out...nothing anyone would object to. But I value my privacy.

Lets see if I can share this...

​

CBDCs and democracy: Tactfully voicing concerns Rickards: “The government hates cash because it's not traceable” Wanna know what’s way up this week? “Shrinkflation” (and cops) hit kids’ lemonade stands Asymmetric trade: “That’s all I need to know,” a reader writes.

Dave Gonigam Managing editor, The 5 Min. Forecast​

“Central Bank Digital Currencies Could Mean the End of Democracy,” warns a column at The Conversation — a nonprofit website where academics can write news analysis for the general public. Ori Freiman, a post-doc fellow at the University of Toronto, poses some good questions: “Do we want to connect personal financial information with credit systems? How about sharing health expenses or political donations with governments and corporations? What do we think about issuing different money, with different financial characteristics, to different people?” Yes, it’s old hat if you’re already familiar with Jim Rickards’ warning about “Biden Bucks.” But it’s heartening to hear someone from the “Center for Ethics” at a prestigious university talking this way — even if he’s doing it cautiously and in a tone that doesn’t step on too many sensitive toes among the power elite. “We don’t want to leave these questions solely for those who develop and implement digital monetary systems,” Freiman continues, “or raise them too late. “Currently, concerns about democracy are lagging behind the race to implement central bank digital currencies. We must have these discussions before it’s too late,” Freiman asserts. The discussion is well underway among the “alt-right” crowd, judging by this meme…​ But every indication is that the elites are plowing ahead with their plans regardless — not least because a CBDC is the simplest route to that decades-long elite dream of a cashless society. “The government hates cash because it's not traceable,” Jim said yesterday during a briefing for lifetime subscribers to Rickards’ Strategic Intelligence. “If you spend it, they don't know that you spend it. They can't put you under surveillance with cash. I see marked dollar bills, but that's reserved for serious criminals.” With a CBDC, however, “They can tag you at the point of purchase — or the online point of purchase, if you will, if you're using any website — by what you're buying, who you're giving money to, what you're spending money on, where you're going, etc.” A CBDC is also the simplest route to negative interest rates. “Let's say the negative interest rate was -1%. You put $100,000 in the bank, you go away for a year, you come back, you have $99,000. They took $1,000 away in my example.” Negative interest rates were the rule during much of the 2010s in Japan and Europe. But cash gave everyday folks an out: You could just withdraw a bunch of banknotes and stash ’em in a home safe. We chronicled a run on home safes in Japan and Germany in 2016. But with no cash, there’s no escape from negative rates. “Imagine you get paid [for your work],” Jim says, “and the government says, ‘OK, you got the money. Nice job, but that money is going to evaporate or disappear if you don't spend it in the next six months.’ How's that for a stimulus program? “So none of these things is possible if there's cash around, but if you get rid of cash and force everyone into a digital system, then you can do these kinds of things.” Here’s a new wrinkle: A CBDC could be devastating if you’re self-employed or run a small business. If that’s you, Jim invites you to imagine a world in which you’d no longer make quarterly estimated payments on your income tax… because a CBDC would make it easy-peasy for Uncle Sam to withhold a portion of your earnings. “What if they said, ‘Well, starting now, we are going to withhold from you. We don't care if you're a professional or an independent contractor; we're just going to take it out of your bank account, file your tax return, claim a credit — sort it out when you file your tax return, but we're just going to take the money.’ “That will be greatly enhanced with central bank digital currency.” Ben​

 

[Bacpacker]

Grunted nothing good will come from this.

 

[Magus]

And if you buy an extra box of ammo or gods forbid an AR-15 or anything else they don't like, or donate to a cause they don't like you will be audited.

 

[Neb]

And if you buy an extra box of ammo or gods forbid an AR-15 or anything else they don't like, or donate to a cause they don't like you will be audited.

Yes but no.

No need to audit.

Try to buy an AR-15 and your card doesn't work.

Can we try to brainstorm this a bit?

Q1
Someone has prepared for an extended bank holiday and has a pile of bills hidden. What should be done to replace those bills?

Keep?
Convert to CBDC?
Convert to gold silver diamonds or artwork?
Convert to crypto?

Arghhhh

Q2

How will the drug cartels, under the table contractors, kids mowing grass or selling lemonade be paid?

Smart phones with cheap readers delivered with each SSN?
Will al under the table use crypto?

Q3
A relative neighbor friend pan handler church cause looking for charity.

How does that work?
Count as income?

Do you have ideas?
More questions?

Ben

 

[Tacitus]

Q1: Someone has prepared for an extended bank holiday and has a pile of bills hidden. What should be done to replace those bills?

• Keep? Keep some.
• Convert to CBDC? I wouldn't convert anything physical to that. I would get some with my digital wealth (e.g., my bank account dollars).
• Convert to gold silver diamonds or artwork?
  • Gold & silver, yes...the value of bullion (not collector coins) is generally known/public. The rich will still hold it, which should tell you something. This is the best to hold your bank holiday wealth if cash not possible. (And, it doesn't go bad after a few years like those canned goods I just threw out.)
  • Diamonds...I don't see that they have an advantage over gold, and they have several disadvantages (no set public value; too much subjective judgement when it comes to color, clarity, occlusions, etc. to determine value).
  • Art: After you have enough cash, silver, gold and crypto, and usable stuff, then comes art as a physical wealth storage mechanism.
• Convert to crypto? Not a bad alternative to cash. I'd rank it after cash, gold, silver, but it is another diversified storage of wealth which is usable like digital bank/credit dollars for online purchases, and is somewhat easily transferred across borders without drawing undue attention.

 

[Neb]

Q1: Someone has prepared for an extended bank holiday and has a pile of bills hidden. What should be done to replace those bills?

• Keep? Keep some.
• Convert to CBDC? I wouldn't convert anything physical to that. I would get some with my digital wealth (e.g., my bank account dollars).
• Convert to gold silver diamonds or artwork?
  • Gold & silver, yes...the value of bullion (not collector coins) is generally known/public. The rich will still hold it, which should tell you something. This is the best to hold your bank holiday wealth if cash not possible. (And, it doesn't go bad after a few years like those canned goods I just threw out.)
  • Diamonds...I don't see that they have an advantage over gold, and they have several disadvantages (no set public value; too much subjective judgement when it comes to color, clarity, occlusions, etc. to determine value).
  • Art: After you have enough cash, silver, gold and crypto, and usable stuff, then comes art as a physical wealth storage mechanism.
• Convert to crypto? Not a bad alternative to cash. I'd rank it after cash, gold, silver, but it is another diversified storage of wealth which is usable like digital bank/credit dollars for online purchases, and is somewhat easily transferred across borders without drawing undue attention.

Excellent!

Bitcoin or what?

Ben

 

[Tacitus]

Excellent!

Bitcoin or what?

Ben

Yes, Bitcoin.

I also hold Ethereum.

Those are probably the two safest ones. (Everything is relative.)

 

[Tacitus]

I would stack/save/store my non-bank wealth in the below priority:

1. Stack physical cash (first dollar coins, 5s & 10s...then solely 20's, 50s, 100s)
2. Stack physical silver
   • US pre-1964 90% silver dimes, quarters, and half-dollars (sometimes called "junk silver," but don't let the nickname scare you off...it just means it was in circulation and so it not likely in collector condition)...I have all types of junk US silver, but if I had to do it over again, I would increase my proportion of halves, and hold fewer dimes and even fewer quarters in favor of the Franklin half dollars
   • American Silver Eagle 1oz. coins (I'm in the US, so my bias is for US coins.)
3. Stack physical gold (Bullion coins with low premium, not collector coins)
   • American Gold Eagles and S.A. Krugerrands (Krugs are not US, but are very well known...the first modern gold coin)
   • British Sovereigns (just shy of a quarter ounce...very common since the British Empire was making them for hundreds of years on multiple continents)
   • 20 Franc coins [Sorry for the commercial site link; I didn't see a wiki page.] (just shy of a fifth ounce...France and the Latin Monetary Union's answer to the Sovereign...the Euro before there was a Euro--many countries made them, so also pretty common and well known...the best known ones are the French 20 Francs and the Swiss 20 Francs)
4. Buy cryptocurrency...for me, the two safest (if there is a safe option with crypto, which remains to be seen), are:
   • Bitcoin
   • Ethereum
5. Hang some art on the wall. (I've been toying with buying a fancy, crazy expensive over-under shotgun that is truly a work of art. I'm pretty confident it will hold its value. A little heavier than a gold coin, though, and for me, a gun is a tool more than art. So, I haven't done it. And yet, might be a neat thing for my kids to inherit?...nah, but hopefully they will get all my silver and gold, which means things didn't go to hell before I died.)

When you look at this process as just converting digital savings to physical savings (withdrawing money), and then converting one form of physical savings (e.g., cash) to another form of physical savings (e.g., silver), which can then be converted back to cash at any time, this process becomes easier. If you think about this process as "spending money" to get silver or gold, then it becomes a major purchase decision, like buying a car, and it becomes harder to do.

[I am not a financial advisor. This is not financial advice. I'm just a busy-body on an internet forum. Read my post at your own risk!]

 

[Magus]

Yes but no.

No need to audit.

Try to buy an AR-15 and your card doesn't work.

Can we try to brainstorm this a bit?

Q1
Someone has prepared for an extended bank holiday and has a pile of bills hidden. What should be done to replace those bills?

Keep?
Convert to CBDC?
Convert to gold silver diamonds or artwork?
Convert to crypto?

Arghhhh

Q2

How will the drug cartels, under the table contractors, kids mowing grass or selling lemonade be paid?

Smart phones with cheap readers delivered with each SSN?
Will al under the table use crypto?

Q3
A relative neighbor friend pan handler church cause looking for charity.

How does that work?
Count as income?

Do you have ideas?
More questions?

Ben

Have you EVER known our government to think things through? LOL

 

[bkt]

I don't recall where this came from, but it's apropos to this discussion.

A cashless society means absolutely no cash. Zero. It doesn't mean mostly-cashless and you can still use a wee bit of cash here and there. Cashless means fully digital, fully traceable and fully controlled. Those advocating a cashless society may not be fully aware of what they're asking for.

A cashless society means:
o No more tuck-away cash for those preparing to leave domestic violence
o No more purchases off-marketplace unless you want to risk bank transfer fraud
o No more garage sales
o No more cash donations to hungry homeless you pass
o No more cash slipped into the hands of a child from their grandparent
o No more money in birthday cards
o No more piggy banks or tooth fairy for your child
o No more selling bits and pieces from your home that you no longer want or need for a bit of cash in return
o Less choices of where you purchase based on affordability
o Absolute dependence on the infrastructure - internet, power - is required to conduct a single transaction
o The safety of your wealth is only as good as the digital security banks can provide
o Those with no knowledge, bank accounts, or mobile phones will struggle to keep up with evolving cashless technology
o Negative interest rates will have a more direct effect on consumers
o Payment providers could charge fees for every transaction

What a cashless society guarantees:
o Banks have full control of every single cent you own
o Every transaction you make is recorded
o All your movements and actions are traceable
o Government will decide what you may and may not purchase and can order banks to freeze accounts instantaneously and for any reason


Tacitus and I are on the same page - hold physical precious metals as a store of wealth. To me, art - even in the form of an over/under shotgun - is too subjective. Gems might hold their wealth, but it's not something I am considering at this time. Crypto...I hold some and I mine it, but don't consider it a store of wealth. But I can use it to buy precious metals.

In the context of conducting business daily and having something to spend, I look to barter items rather than precious metals. Maybe non-precious metals like copper and nickel would work? Crypto might be good for this.

 

[Magus]

Avoid gems like the plague, Russia can make "passable" fake diamonds and rubies. maybe emeralds as well. there was a scandal years ago about cubic zirconia passing as real diamonds. I had a jeweler buddy who got screwed bad buying loose diamonds. only a third were real and they were low grade.

 

[angie_nrs]

View attachment 82485

I don't recall where this came from, but it's apropos to this discussion.

A cashless society means absolutely no cash. Zero. It doesn't mean mostly-cashless and you can still use a wee bit of cash here and there. Cashless means fully digital, fully traceable and fully controlled. Those advocating a cashless society may not be fully aware of what they're asking for.

A cashless society means:
o No more tuck-away cash for those preparing to leave domestic violence
o No more purchases off-marketplace unless you want to risk bank transfer fraud
o No more garage sales
o No more cash donations to hungry homeless you pass
o No more cash slipped into the hands of a child from their grandparent
o No more money in birthday cards
o No more piggy banks or tooth fairy for your child
o No more selling bits and pieces from your home that you no longer want or need for a bit of cash in return
o Less choices of where you purchase based on affordability
o Absolute dependence on the infrastructure - internet, power - is required to conduct a single transaction
o The safety of your wealth is only as good as the digital security banks can provide
o Those with no knowledge, bank accounts, or mobile phones will struggle to keep up with evolving cashless technology
o Negative interest rates will have a more direct effect on consumers
o Payment providers could charge fees for every transaction

What a cashless society guarantees:
o Banks have full control of every single cent you own
o Every transaction you make is recorded
o All your movements and actions are traceable
o Government will decide what you may and may not purchase and can order banks to freeze accounts instantaneously and for any reason


Tacitus and I are on the same page - hold physical precious metals as a store of wealth. To me, art - even in the form of an over/under shotgun - is too subjective. Gems might hold their wealth, but it's not something I am considering at this time. Crypto...I hold some and I mine it, but don't consider it a store of wealth. But I can use it to buy precious metals.

In the context of conducting business daily and having something to spend, I look to barter items rather than precious metals. Maybe non-precious metals like copper and nickel would work? Crypto might be good for this.

This was posted earlier in the thread......which might be what you're referring to:

Younger people and those who are extremely tech savvy think cashless is awesome.......until they do a bit of research on history. Hint.....it's not all rainbows and unicorns.

At this point, people have to decide what they want from their cash. Growth, safety, or liquidity. You can't have them all. I'm looking for safety at this point.....I just didn't think it would be safety from a tyranical government. However, with the IRS now weaponized even more, you gotta wonder if digital currency is the way to go? I'm not offering answers....just more questions. Even if the IRS goes after you and you did nothing wrong, it's going to cost you time, money and frustration/stress.....lots of it! That is not by accident. They're coming after all of us......not the mega rich.

 

[Patchouli]

Never mind

 

[Magus]

For a while, ammunition was currency!

 

[angie_nrs]

For a while, ammunition was currency!

It IS one of the precious metals, no?

If the elites do eventually get their cashless society, you can betcha that negative interest rates will follow just after the system is up and running. In addition there'll be expiration dates and restrictions on what you can spend your funds on. People today can walk away from negative interest rates by taking their cash out of the bank and storing it themselves. With a cashless society, that choice would not be possible. So, you'd lose money every day if your money is in digital form. It is the .gov's wet dream to have digital currency b/c then they can siphon off EVERYONE's money, just b/c they are part of the system. One word........SLAVERY.

 

[Neb]

It IS one of the precious metals, no?

If the elites do eventually get their cashless society, you can betcha that negative interest rates will follow just after the system is up and running. In addition there'll be expiration dates and restrictions on what you can spend your funds on. People today can walk away from negative interest rates by taking their cash out of the bank and storing it themselves. With a cashless society, that choice would not be possible. So, you'd lose money every day if your money is in digital form. It is the .gov's wet dream to have digital currency b/c then they can siphon off EVERYONE's money, just b/c they are part of the system. One word........SLAVERY.

I had always shunned crypto but if digital dollar happens my mind will change.

GLINT is another option.

Ben

 

[SLADE]

I can't help but offer the humble thoughts of a simple man.
Crypto dollars were a test to see if the people would accept another form of worthless currency to conduct every day street level trade.
They were.
Now the great American crypto dollar can absorb and replace all other crypto as the gov does not allow competition.

 

[Neb]

I can't help but offer the humble thoughts of a simple man.
Crypto dollars were a test to see if the people would accept another form of worthless currency to conduct every day street level trade.
They were.
Now the great American crypto dollar can absorb and replace all other crypto as the gov does not allow competition.

True that.

Looks like I will be putting more into Glint to handle an alternative to digital dollars.

Ben

 

[angie_nrs]

I had always shunned crypto but if digital dollar happens my mind will change.

GLINT is another option.

Ben

I'm not a crypto fan either. However, if it's a choice and not mandated, then I'm OK with it if others want to use it. I'll cheer you on, but I'm not in that arena yet. It's when that choice is eliminated and 'streamlined' that I have issues with.

The people should have choices of how they transact with one another. The Gov shouldn't mandate that. It's really none of their business. If I want to transact using PM's, cash, CC's, assets, food, trading cards, etc.....then so be it. The Gov wants a piece of EVERY transaction made, unless of coarse, you are an elite....then those transactions will be hidden and ignored. That's why they are pushing for a single digital system.....so that they have full financial control over the people. Hitler would be envious of what they are trying to pull off.

I think one thing's for sure. In 10 years, I think our system is going to look a whole lot different than what it is today. I just hope it's for the better.

 

[Sourdough]

I think one thing's for sure. In 10 years, I think our system is going to look a whole lot different than what it is today. I just hope it's for the better.

It will not be better. I see only one viable option. Urgently (as in started yesterday) divorce yourself from the system. Many already are.

 

[angie_nrs]

It will not be better. I see only one viable option. Urgently (as in started yesterday) divorce yourself from the system. Many already are.

Care to be more specific? Divorcing yourself from the system could mean a whole lot of different things.

 

[Sourdough]

There are many isolated (fly in only) towns and/or villages here in Alaska. I live in a town (population (11) eleven) near the center of seven and half million-acre Chugach National Forest. Of the eleven people here, we have a master electrician, a mechanic, a professional photographer, master carpenter, a veterinarian, EMT "teacher", Professional Hunting Guide, a White-Water Rafting guide, a pastry chef. two Medical Doctors.

That these skills exist here is just luck, not by design. But many roadless fly-in Alaska towns and villages have nearly all the skilled personal to keep the community running.

The solution is "DON'T" be part of the BIG government-controlled system, be part of a tiny system. Get away from government regulations: Zoning, Building restrictions, HOA, taxes, etc.

Get it set-up so you have very little need to use money.

 

[Amish Heart]

Be in the world but not of it. The amish try to live that way.

 

[angie_nrs]

I see and understand what you are both saying.....and ideally, that'd be great. But, for most folks it's just not realistic. Even those in rural areas use cash, no? At this point, cash is still easier to exchange for goods or services as a medium for compensation. I doubt that if anyone in Sourdough's circle (or the Amish) found a $20 bill lying on the ground they'd just leave it there.....which means it still has value to them. However, as opposed to what most people have at their disposal, I'm sure the Amish and Sourdough would do much better in a SHTF scenario.

The best way I know how to 'divorce from the system' is to use cash and also diversify my savings in the form of assets, of which there is a whole litany (that have been discussed already). In addition, I have familiarized myself with many more people over the past few years, even though I tend to be an introvert. I have taken on a position in the community that has forced me to meet new people. I now know more people that I trust with specific skills, which comes in handy even without a SHTF scenario. Plus, I've met some new friends along the way. I was apprehensive about making such a commitment, but I'm glad I did and highly recommend it to anyone willing to broaden their circle of contacts. Something as simple as volunteering at a VFW hall to help with a fish fry or breakfast can yield some incredible returns.

 

[Magus]

I advised a friend to invest in crypto back when there was just one.
He got rich, guess who forgot I even existed. that lousy 500$ investment paid off his college loan.

There WILL be a black market currency, if not ammo/components, then other scarce items that can be filtered into the white market easily. links of gold chain or foreign coin made of precious metals such as Krugerrands or gold pesos that can be melted down. American coins are federal property and are subject to being confiscated. if nothing else, troy weights of common but recyclable metals i.e copper, aluminum, bronze silver and nickel.

 

[Sourdough]

Things I use for trade, airline miles, split and dried firewood, ammo, snow plowing, pit run gravel.

 

[Magus]

Anything people value is fair game!

 

[Supervisor42]

I see and understand what you are both saying.....and ideally, that'd be great. But, for most folks it's just not realistic. Even those in rural areas use cash, no? At this point, cash is still easier to exchange for goods or services as a medium for compensation.

Yes. Cash ain't goin' nowhere.
Let a spinney-thing run thru down here, and instantly everything is cash.
Nobody takes it to the bank and deposits it because they know they will need it.
This is where the the word "circulation" comes from.
The 'tap & pay' people are addicted to cashless only because they are lazy .
Tell them, don't come down here at the wrong time.
When the SHTF, the banks/ATMs are all offline but magically, everyone has cash .