Germany’s Leopard tanks prove vulnerable in Islamic State fight

[Maverick]

"KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — The reputation of Germany’s vaunted Leopard 2 tank, which forms the mainstay of NATO’s armored forces, has taken a pounding in battles with Islamic State militants in Syria."

http://www.stripes.com/news/germany-s-leopard-tanks-prove-vulnerable-in-islamic-state-fight-1.449278

 

[Silent Earth]

The Leopard 2 like the US Abrams is superb on the steppes, plains and open deserts but both are unsuited to urban fighting. Even the very heavy armour of the UK Challenger 2 would struggle in built up areas, Tank V Tank/APC/BMP etc the Leo2 and Abrams 2 are still the worlds best even better than the new Russian tank its estimated, but the minute you go into the streets, alleys, bocage, sukhs they are just metal coffins. You have two choices (1) remove area with MLRS or MOABs or (2) Send in Hunters/ Jaegers street fighting experts.

 

[Maverick]

I guess no one learned from Germany experience in WWII regarding the Panzers and it's use in urban combat. *sigh

 

[Silent Earth]

I guess no one learned from Germany experience in WWII regarding the Panzers and it's use in urban combat. *sigh

Yup We Brits and the Canucks armour got our ***** Royally whupped by the Panzer Grenadiers and the SS Jugend division in the French bocage of Normandy, and the Germans even with the King and Royal Tigers, Jagd Panthers etc got whupped in the Ukranian and Russian cities........ In the Iraqi war most damage done to British armour in the 100 hours was done by the USAF and the USNG fliers !!!!! bloody warthogs cannote tell between BMP and British warrior APCs. I'm so pleased I was Light Inf

 

[Maverick]

Like I said many times, I feel better amongst the trees... on foot!!

 

[Maverick]

On a side note, I think it's a major mistake for the DoD to get rid of Warthogs

 

[Silent Earth]

On a side note, I think it's a major mistake for the DoD to get rid of Warthogs

Very true a superb design and very capable tank and bunker buster, they worked best in the hands of the USAF, when the ANG got them they killed lots of Brits.

 

[Gazrok]

Ralf Rath, head of the Panzermuseum in Munster, said the photos and videos on the internet that showed the destruction of Leopard tanks in Syria made it clear that the tanks were vulnerable.

“Contrary to common perceptions, tanks are no individual fighters,” he said. Referring to videos that showed the Leopards moving alone into al-Bab, he said that on urban battlefields “tanks always need infantry alongside that can protect their vulnerable flanks.”

Who the hell is this idiot?
How the hell is a flesh and blood soldier going to "protect its flanks"???
You protect it by not exposing the rear and flanks to enemy fire, ya dolt...

They are called "anti-tank" weapons for a reason. Hard to criticize a tank for being "vulnerable" to a weapon DESIGNED to take it out.... Tanks are not good for urban warfare because they just become rolling coffins. Basically, they are mobile artillery, and if used as such (and protected as such), they'll do their job just fine.

 

[Gazrok]

Very true a superb design and very capable tank and bunker buster

Basically, this job fell to drones and smarter guided missiles. No need to get the planes (and men) chewed up when you can do it by remote control. I get that, but the A-10s are still damn cool. Was kind of a fluke of Fairchild, a company that typically made more in the way of civilian planes and military transports.

 

[Silent Earth]

Saw a Warthog once it was at a US air display in Southern England, litteraly a flying tank.

 

[Mountain trapper]

Saw a Warthog once it was at a US air display in Southern England, litteraly a flying tank.

I saw the results of a Warthog first hand in Afghanistan. It turned 10 rag heads to hamburger. Impressive to say the least.

 

[Maverick]

Tanks have no business in urban warfare except level the towns from afar in the open field!! That why this article puzzled me and the Germans of all people.

 

[Gazrok]

I've seen pics of A10s come back and you have to just wonder how they made it. Holes all in 'em, parts of the wing and tail shot off...just nuts.

Aircraft was always a hobby of mine. Grew up a Coast Guard (dad flew in Sikorskys and C130s) and then Lockheed brat, so I've been a hop, skip, and jump from a tarmac pretty much most of my life. Lockheed was actually the reason I lived in Saudi for a few years. (as an American kid). Dad last worked on a Raptor project before he went into private consulting mostly for Sikorsky and Boeing. (and nope, I don't know jack....as when you grow up in a defense contractor family, you pretty much learn that secret is secret....he never shared info with the family). (or if he did, he'd bury it in BS, so you never really knew what was truth or fiction)......

 

[DrHenley]

A-10s in the air are the most effective Tactical PsyOps ever devised!

The Air Force bigwigs have a hard on for the F-35, and the Air Force doesn't like doing close air support. Doesn't matter how good the A-10 is, they want to get rid of it and throw the funding into the F-35 money pit. Congress keeps forcing them to keep it. ISIS also forced them to keep it.

ISIS may have saved the A-10

 

[Silent Earth]

Fly Warthog Air

 

[jontte]

ok,guys,the day you do de-commission the A-10,just sell them in bulk and cheap to us here,we promise to use them wisely

 

[DrHenley]

An Air Force General was removed from his position in 2015 because of the A-10.

The A-10 is popular in the ranks, but not with the brass. Maj. Gen. James Post III told 300 Airmen not to speak to Congress about the Air Force's attempt to retire the A-10, and went so far as to say that it would be treason if they weren't loyal to senior leader decisions concerning the A-10. (meaning they better not tell Congress anything good about the A-10)

This was a violation of U.S. Code and Defense Department directives, and Post has been relieved of his command by Air Combat Command (ACC) Commander Gen. Hawk Carlisle.

The ACC said that this had a “chilling effect on some of the attendees and caused them to feel constrained from communicating with members of Congress,”

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/a...warning-airmen-not-to-speak-to-congress-about

 

[Silent Earth]

The A10 is more useful overall in many situations than the overpried and over complicated Raptor.

 

[Maverick]

The A10 is more useful overall in many situations than the overpried and over complicated Raptor.

Though the F-22 isn't a ground support aircraft it's strictly an air superiority fighter, the F-35 is supposedly the one replacing the A-10. Ironically, as high tech as the F-35 is (and it's getting better by the day) the F-35 is very dependent on the F-22. The DoD would have been better off producing the F-22 and continue support of the A-10, the F-35 will never replace the F-22 nor become the A-10 but then again I'm not the one getting kick-backs with the promise of a grand career after the Military.

 

[Maverick]

On a side note regarding the F-35 written almost a year ago, as I said the F-35 is getting better and better and certainly better than it was a year ago.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/03/...g-in-the-f-35-a-jsf-pilot-first-hand-account/

 

[Silent Earth]

The Warthog can be repaired on the ground after landing in an Autobahn in Germany and stored in a barn, It can be repaired very easily in battlefield conditions. F22 and 35 I am told are not front line MTCE friendly. s a ground pounder I would far rather have a slow flying warthog providing topcover than the raptors.

 

[Maverick]

The Warthog can be repaired on the ground after landing in an Autobahn in Germany and stored in a barn, It can be repaired very easily in battlefield conditions. F22 and 35 I am told are not front line MTCE friendly. s a ground pounder I would far rather have a slow flying warthog providing topcover than the raptors.

In field battle maintenance the A-10 kills it, close air support the A-10 again kills it. Your diffidently right there SE though the F-35 still has a major place in warfare and still very useful in close air support just not up close and personal like the A-10. The Air Force is now reevaluating the A-10 and planing on keeping it in it's line-up so as of right now they have extended the service life of the A-10

 

[Silent Earth]

I like Friendly aircraft that can stooge around for hours flying at 250 MPH only 300 ft or less over me loaded with GAU10 ammo, A to G missiles and Cluster munitions, Not so keen on some high tech piece of kit that cannot fly safely under 500 feet at less than 500 MPG and is vulnerable to ground fire. Fly Warthog Air grunts like it.

 

[DrHenley]

To me, trying to have a single warplane designed to take on the role of air superiority AND close air support is like trying to design a vehicle to take on the role of Grand Prix racing AND plowing fields. And using the argument that a car capable of 250 mph is superior to a John Deer tractor for plowing fields - because it can get to the field faster - is ludicrous!

 

[Silent Earth]

Next war will see both sides use hypersonic and laser weapons to wipe out missiles and high flying aircraft stealthy or not long before they get over the target, I reckon its going to be Cruise Missiles and Warthogs and Choppers no more than 50 ft above the ground that will survive. Get above a couple of hundred feet and lasers, hypersonics etc can be fire at you from far away and from satellite stations.

And if I was going to be tomorrows ground pounder I would also not want to be anywhere near anything that passes for armour either, these latest RPGs and ATMs are truly the work of the devil

 

[Maverick]

Here's a good article

F-35 Stealth Fighter vs. A-10 Warthog: The Ultimate Close Air Support Showdown

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...er-vs-10-warthog-the-ultimate-close-air-16857

 

[Silent Earth]

Here's a good article

F-35 Stealth Fighter vs. A-10 Warthog: The Ultimate Close Air Support Showdown

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...er-vs-10-warthog-the-ultimate-close-air-16857

F35 is purdy as you chaps like to say, and its a pilots dream aviators like to say, but I as a ground pounder choose the Fugly and Pugly Warthog cos its proven, reliable and frighteningly effective, it and the Harrier are the tools ground pounds like to provide flying artillery cover, and of course those equally fugly C 130 gunship doofahs

 

[Gazrok]

The DoD would have been better off producing the F-22 and continue support of the A-10, the F-35 will never replace the F-22 nor become the A-10

The F-22 (especially the classified variants) IS definitely still the air superiority fighter.

The F-35 was really made more as a replacement for a variety of aircraft (and for the J-35 export version to friendly nations).

As for the A-10, while it is an amazing aircraft, it has aged avionics and has the unenviable position of putting a human pilot right in the line of ground fire. The military thinking is that with the new advances in drones, you can get the same job done, without risking a pilot, and without the need to protect the pilot, you can make the drone stealthy while it is bombing the crap out of ground targets.