Ham Radio

[Potter County Man]

Hey been awhile since I checked into this thread...wanted to follow up on this...with your extensive background in ARES and such, you are probably already aware...but if anyone plans on using FRS or GMRS bands during an emergency they will have some HUGE problems! There are only a few frequencies and there may be a few thousand folks trying to utilize those (6 to 12?) "channels"...the system will be severely overloaded.

Without a license, a operator would be subject to the rules which would limit them to one half of one watt on FRS and one watt with a non detachable antenna on GMRS.
I doubt if you would hear people for more then a couple of miles - we use GMRS while hunting. With the privacy codes - there is lot's of traffic, but always a quiet place to talk.

Cell phones will probably provide the bulk of the communications for most people - since they already own them and use them, and they do not require any type of investment into more radios or a license.
Wireless communications - your antenna to my antenna is becoming a thing of the past.

The same would apply to the 40 channel CB's - a significant emergency in a populated area would render FMR, GMRS, and CB practically useless!

That is why I have a ham license - it opens up literally thousands of frequencies for just this type of communication. I have a base station and several HT's (handhelds) for 2 meter - and I have a HF base station covering 80m - 15m. I just finished equipping two anti-EMP kits for two of my vehicles (one more to go) that have 10m radios, power supplies, dipoles, and 50' of coax cable (and instructions on how to set it all up)!

Communications is very overlooked and unplanned for by many folks trying to set supplies aside for everything from disasters due to tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. - to the "end of the world" scenarios. I think we all need to review our plans relating to this subject!

I'm sure that you are right.
The population of hams in the USA today is only .015%
With such a small population, and most people only having a handheld radio - that will rely on local repeaters to supply their communications needs - I doubt if they will see much use if any, except in the more populated areas.

With a over-saturation of amateur radio two meters repeaters and a lack of use by all - I would predict that most repeaters would fail within the first week.
Even clubs and repeater owners would be more concerned with self preservation then with keeping the repeater on the air.

Because there is no arranged fuel delivery schedule, even if the repeater has a fuel generator back up, when the fuel ran out - the repeater would just stop working.

This is the reason why it is so important to rely more on simplex communications then repeaters and handheld radios.

 

[Potter County Man]

I now have the dubious task of moving my mobile rig to a new car. The old one was uber-easy to set up as the battery was in the trunk.... The new car is going to be a bit more troublesome as it not only has the battery in the engine compartment, but it is a 2014, and i am a little nervous about all the computers in the car.

Has anyone out there installed a rig in a late model care, say 2012 or newer?

Of course - The only problem I have seen so far is a overload when I placed my mag mount antenna on the roof of my Pontiac 2006 GXP.
The On-Star - XM radio antenna had a very powerful signal coming out of it.

The electronics inside of the new GM car, are immune to small amounts of RF - less then 50 watts. The solution is the same as it was with earlier models.
Use copper braid ground strap on the hood, doors, trunk lid, engine to frame, engine to body, body to exhaust. Try to make the whole car capacitive - look to the RF as being one solid object.

10 meters is a very good way to communicate as long as the body of the vehicle is big enough.. Normal expectations would be a vehicle the size of a Chevrolet Suburban / Avalanche... Small plastic cars do not work well with 10 meters...

The 103 inch whip is still the preferred antenna with 10 meters - very little tuning is needed when the antenna is already resonant.

 

[savageagle]

I have installed radios for 15 years most of which have been older vehicles. The latest was a 2010 GMC pickup and what I learned from others and one freind who has his own communications business maintaining and servicing fire, ems and police radios is to always install the radio whenever possible directly to the battery. Any other location you are connecting to could and may be connected to a circuit that is reliant on a specific reference voltage and installing to this location can and may interfere with the reference voltage of that specific circuit.
I don't know of any situation where something went bad but in theory it's not a good idea to connect a radio to a fuse box connection or a random "hot" wire you may find under the dash.
Rule of thumb, "connect to the +POS" terminal of the battery and your ground should also be connected to the -NEG terminal of the battery. THis way you are most confident that any circuit of the vehicles computers systems and their respective reference voltages will not be affected. Good Idea to ask the dealer of that specific model about installing a radio in it.
The GMC I worked on I also added an additional fuse box off the main battery with +pos and -neg wires then connected the radio to the secondary fuse box. I also used this secondary fuse box to connect off road lights. This method helps to insure no interference with circuits reliant on reference voltages.

 

[Potter County Man]

The reason why you connect the red to the positive terminal and the black to the negative terminal of the battery is because that is the polarity of the charging system.
Unless the charging system is reverse polarity - such as in a older style MACK truck.

The automotive battery acts like a buffer or filter, it filters out some of the unwanted noise.
Things like the alternator - charging system, automatic transmission, fuel injection, ABS, fuel pump are all pulse width modulated.
Pulse Width Modulation will cause spurs ( Spurious Emissions ) that will resonate on a particular frequency.
In the scanning world they are called "Birdies"

What ever frequency you have a spur on - you will not have reliable communications.
It can couple with your transmitted signal, making it appear to others as noisy.
It can couple in the receive of your radios on certain frequency's and all you will have is noise in your receiver.

If your transmitted signal couples with the electronic device it can cause it to fail.

We also use Brute Force Capacitors to filter out unwanted noise.

If you have ever heard someone talking on 2 meters that had a radio or a handheld radio that was plugged into the lighter socket and you heard a buzzing noise in their audio that sounded like the engine rpm and even heard it shift - that is the PWM noise I am talking about - on the transmit side.

If you ever plugged in your transceiver and heard noise on a particular frequency that you know is good - away from your vehicle - that is another noise that is being caused by something active in the vehicle. The XM radio antenna on the 2006 Pontiac does this, but I do not hear it in the 2012 or 2009 Avalanche.

Some older Dodges and Toyota's had this noise especially loud on 146.730 / 760

If your local repeater was on either frequency - then you couldn't hear the repeater for the noise.

I think either 146.760 or (730) was the first FM frequency used for amateur radio on two meters.
The split was not .600 then..

It had something to do with the crystal controlled PLMRS radios of the day not being able to be tuned beyond that frequency and something to do with the crystals used for transmit and receive and the mixer and 2nd IF......

That made 146.760 / 730 the most popular frequency used in most cities that had the first FM repeaters....

This was the reason why so many amateurs got upset when their automobiles were first equipped with electronic ignitions and computers...

If you order a new vehicle from Fleet Sales, you can buy a vehicle that was designed for use as a Taxi Cab or a Police Vehicle, where the manufacturer will run dedicated filtered power cables to the trunk of the vehicle and even have the wiring for the head unit and speaker installed at the factory.

This is about your best option if you wish to use a high powered radio or a two way repeater or a external amplifier in the vehicle.

 

[savageagle]

Thanks county man for adding all that technical stuff. I wanted to give clyde a quick reason as to where he should connect his radio but you've extended the reasons very well. Good Job from an abviously well seasoned amateur radio operator. So clyde, everything I said plus pottercountyman's additions are very true.

 

[Clyde]

I have installed radios for 15 years most of which have been older vehicles. The latest was a 2010 GMC pickup and what I learned from others and one freind who has his own communications business maintaining and servicing fire, ems and police radios is to always install the radio whenever possible directly to the battery. Any other location you are connecting to could and may be connected to a circuit that is reliant on a specific reference voltage and installing to this location can and may interfere with the reference voltage of that specific circuit.
I don't know of any situation where something went bad but in theory it's not a good idea to connect a radio to a fuse box connection or a random "hot" wire you may find under the dash.
Rule of thumb, "connect to the +POS" terminal of the battery and your ground should also be connected to the -NEG terminal of the battery. THis way you are most confident that any circuit of the vehicles computers systems and their respective reference voltages will not be affected. Good Idea to ask the dealer of that specific model about installing a radio in it.
The GMC I worked on I also added an additional fuse box off the main battery with +pos and -neg wires then connected the radio to the secondary fuse box. I also used this secondary fuse box to connect off road lights. This method helps to insure no interference with circuits reliant on reference voltages.

The reason why you connect the red to the positive terminal and the black to the negative terminal of the battery is because that is the polarity of the charging system.
Unless the charging system is reverse polarity - such as in a older style MACK truck.

The automotive battery acts like a buffer or filter, it filters out some of the unwanted noise.
Things like the alternator - charging system, automatic transmission, fuel injection, ABS, fuel pump are all pulse width modulated.
Pulse Width Modulation will cause spurs ( Spurious Emissions ) that will resonate on a particular frequency.
In the scanning world they are called "Birdies"

What ever frequency you have a spur on - you will not have reliable communications.
It can couple with your transmitted signal, making it appear to others as noisy.
It can couple in the receive of your radios on certain frequency's and all you will have is noise in your receiver.

If your transmitted signal couples with the electronic device it can cause it to fail.

We also use Brute Force Capacitors to filter out unwanted noise.

If you have ever heard someone talking on 2 meters that had a radio or a handheld radio that was plugged into the lighter socket and you heard a buzzing noise in their audio that sounded like the engine rpm and even heard it shift - that is the PWM noise I am talking about - on the transmit side.

If you ever plugged in your transceiver and heard noise on a particular frequency that you know is good - away from your vehicle - that is another noise that is being caused by something active in the vehicle. The XM radio antenna on the 2006 Pontiac does this, but I do not hear it in the 2012 or 2009 Avalanche.

Some older Dodges and Toyota's had this noise especially loud on 146.730 / 760

If your local repeater was on either frequency - then you couldn't hear the repeater for the noise.

I think either 146.760 or (730) was the first FM frequency used for amateur radio on two meters.
The split was not .600 then..

It had something to do with the crystal controlled PLMRS radios of the day not being able to be tuned beyond that frequency and something to do with the crystals used for transmit and receive and the mixer and 2nd IF......

That made 146.760 / 730 the most popular frequency used in most cities that had the first FM repeaters....

This was the reason why so many amateurs got upset when their automobiles were first equipped with electronic ignitions and computers...

If you order a new vehicle from Fleet Sales, you can buy a vehicle that was designed for use as a Taxi Cab or a Police Vehicle, where the manufacturer will run dedicated filtered power cables to the trunk of the vehicle and even have the wiring for the head unit and speaker installed at the factory.

This is about your best option if you wish to use a high powered radio or a two way repeater or a external amplifier in the vehicle.

I appreciate all of the technical education!
Thanks to you both for the effort in putting it together!

My dilemma is getting the wires from the battery to the rig!
I would rater not drill holes through the wall, but it may be the easiest way to do this.

 

[savageagle]

Hey Clyde, the best way I found which can be time consumming is to find a rubber boot that transports either hoses or wire looms through the firewall to the engine compartment. The whole boot is usually larger than the hole for the loom going through it which also leaves some room between the loom hole and the outside hole. There usually is enough room to puncture a hole well enough away from the loom itself or enlarge the loom hole a bit then you'll have to feed insome way the wires from the radio through it out to the battery. I usually make a piece of hanger about 4-6 inches in length with a loop at the end which you bend closed. The ends of the positive and negative go together and you make a knott in them after you feed them through the looped end of the hanger piece. Then you find the hole you created in the boot and slowly slide the hanger through the boot and taking care when you have to pull the knott through until it's inside the engine compartment. From there you undo the knott and slowly pull the wires from the radio out towards the battery utill you have enough. You should route those wires along side another wire loom, hose or some piping while putting nylon ties along the way until you get the radio wires extended to reach the battery. Next would be putting on the proper connectors which should be the last after installing the radio where you want it and double checking the routing of the wires making sure they are tight and neatly routed along the path you have chosen to make sure they don't interfere with amything that could damage them over time like things that may move over time which could rub off the insalation ot get pinched in something.
The wires going through the rubber boot should seal up well enough and you may want to add a bit of sealer to insure no water gets through.
As I said this takes some time and patience but makes for a worry free installation that will last. Pay attention to detail as this will pay off and give you and install you'll be happy with.

Feel free to ask further questions if you run into anything else...............good luck clyde.

Oh Yes, under the dash, pay close attention to your routing to keep it away from things that move like the gas, clutch or brake pedals and as well heater door cables which can move and stretch the wires and may pull them apart. I think if you take your time and pay close attention to details I have mention you'll do just fine......................cheers buddy.

 

[Potter County Man]

The problem with routing power cables next to wiring harnesses is that the wiring harness becomes a simple dipole antenna and any RF noise you have in the body wiring harness / chassis computers of the vehicle - comes through the radio.

Power wires are inductors - just think about the experiment you did while in elementary school where you wrapped a piece of insulated copper wire around a 10 penny nail. With no power applied, nothing happens when you touch other nails.
But when you apply power it energizes the nail making it into a simple motor structure - magnet. http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/indmut.html

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/motor1.htm

The key is knowing where to drill the hole and using the proper grommet.
If you are using a 50 watt - 2 meter mobile, the power and ground wires will be either 10 or 12 gauge - with fuses on both wires. Some vehicles - I think the Dodge Caravan is one - you can't drill a hole through the firewall. I can't remember the reason why - but I know that it is not advisable.

Nor is it advisable to route the wires through the door and fender.
As I tell all my new hams - you are a ham now, it is up to you to do the right thing and to do it properly. Unfortunately I can't proclaim that I practice what I preach.
All the vehicles I operate are leased vehicles or loaners and I am not allowed to do anything to them except drive them and maintain them. That is the price of FREE...

The owner got upset when I put a mag mount antenna on the roof of one.
But he has every right to be upset - because I bought a used Larsen mag mount from a idiot ham guy and the magnet was no good and I got caught in a small cross wind one day and the antenna blew off the roof 3 times in 3 miles and whacked the door in a couple of spots and left big dents.

When I asked for my money back - the ham guy got upset and I ended up loosing $80 when I thought he gave me a $100 instead of a $20 and I gave him my $100 bill and he gave me $20 back.. The moral of the story is - some guys don't get rid of anything until it is junk and even then they try to rip you off any way they can@!

 

[savageagle]

Well said and true in most cases pottercountyman, In my installs I have considered just what you explained during those installs and using the routes of what was already there I did pay close attention to not be in close proximaty to those routings but to use them as a guide to get to where I needed to terminate those connections. I have never had complaints to unusual signals or bad rx/tx situations and for the most part nobody has complained that their radios acted strange.
I guess for clyde it may end up being a trial and error install. It depends also on the actual vehicle he is installing in and most of those installs I did I found usually a boot that routed something like heater/AC piping that was routed through the firewall to the engine compartment and once into the engine compartment the wires were moved away from the piping where I used a plastic stand-off devise that clips to the piping but has sort of a twist tie that secures the wire in it and about an inch away from the wire loom or piping. There has also been times when I've had to alter the install 2-3 times before all interference was removed and the customer was happy.
When working with wires and all sorts of materials that can conduct electromagnetic pulses it's a hit and miss but it can be done with alot of patience and knowledge is a very important key to understanding the principles of conductivity and electromagnetic effects they can have.
I once had a ham call me and explain that he routed his antenna wire through his trunk from the rear seat area back to the rear of his right side fender well where he had installed his antenna. He claimed that when he transmitted his tail/brake lamp would light up. I had to see this for myself. Seems he had an access of antenna wire so from behind the back seat to the antenna that was sticking through the fender well, about 5-6 feet he wound the antenna wire (coiled it) around the wire harness that fed the brake/tail lamp assembly. Of course as you know and stated this induced a current with the wires going to the right brake/tail lamps and would light them up when he transmitted. This I had never seen before but with my electrical knowledge I knew it was possible and remedied the situation explianing to him the basic fundamentals of electricity. Kinda like when I was young and would put a light on my tall CB whip and make it light up when transmitting.
Main thing is to protect your new vehicle, it's PC, sensors and actuators are very dependant on these reference voltages and the wires you install if not done right can and may affect those items that your vehicle depends on for proper operation. In the newer vehicles, anything with a computer, I always recommend installing an auxiliary fuse box to run off the main battery and hope that this aux fuse box can find a home inside the cab somewhere then your new radio can be connected to it. Not always the case with many of the new vehicles which they don't leave alot of room. Search and seek and you might find a small enough location and small sized 2-4 output fuse block that may fit. Sometimes the kick panels driver/passenger side may only house one small object leaving you room for a single small aux fuse block.
I hope everything works out clyde so you get a clean and worry-free install to enjoy your radio for a long time. Remember, the more time and patience you spend now in installing your radio will be worth it.
I have some resources which I will check with regarding very detailed books on installing ham radio's in newer computerized vehicles and it addresses the issues we have been talking about here. The newer the vehicle is the more critical it is to install your radio while protecting the important items of your computerized vehicle. I'll take a look-see and report back.

 

[savageagle]

Here are some links to good info...............


www.qsl.net/kg6mvb/car.html
http://www.k0bg.com/install.html
http://www.eham.net/articles/706


I think clyde, if you are the intelegent guy I believe you are, doing your research prior to installing the radio your going to do just fine.
Make sure your fuses, both +pos and -neg from the radio to the battery are within 8 inches of the battery, second, find those stand-offs which connect to existing hoses, piping or existing wire looms and allow the connection of a wire(s) to be connected so you can follow those routes to the battery. (They are plastic and should be easily found, ie, hardward, O'rielly autoparts).
Not sure if you've got your radio already but "remote headed radios", ones where the main body of the radio can actually be located in a secure location and the head be easily mounted more easily where needed.
Very important is the consideration that items not properly mounted near or above the dash area can become disasterous projectiles in a crash by explodong airbag systems. (This I know first hand in seeing an airbag deployed in an open mechanics bay with a corragated roof 25 feet above. Such an explosion left a crescent wrench I placed on it embedded in the metal of the roof)
The more time preparing before installing is less time of frustration after it is done.
Plastic shrink tubing is another good protector where wires may pass through areas where you might have concerns of wire movement and will give you more confidents and peace of mind that you did a good job.

Hope this all helps.