How do we defend ourselves if society collapses?

[DrHenley]

That is a honey locust tree. The seeds and seedpods are edible. Good for coughs, small pox, stomach, throat cancer, antiseptic, anesthetic, colon cancer, breast cancer, larynx cancer....measles...

Close, but no cigar, LOL
It's a close relative. There are actually a number of closely related species of locust worldwide in the genus Gleditsia, and many of them have "honey locust" in the name, (Persian honey locust, Japanese honey locust, Chinese honey locust, thorny honey locust, Texas honey locust) but not this one.
The toxic black locust ( Robinia pseudoacacia) is in a different genus.
There is a key difference that you can use to distinguish between the thorny honey locust and the swamp locust. The American thorny honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos) has a long seed pod with many seeds. The swamp locust (AKA water locust, Gleditsia aquatica) has a very short seed pod, sometimes with only one seed. The swamp locust has a limited range which overlaps the honey locust. As you might guess from the name, they are a wetlands tree and are often found at the water's edge whereas the thorny honey locust is more of an uplands tree.

 

[GaRp58]

OK, I see the light thru the thorns...We have honey locusts here for use in foraging.

 

[TexPrep]

Prickly Pear cactus would work as well they grow like weeds. And you can eat the red bulbs and the green leaves after burning off all the needles.
To propagate them you only need to cut off one of the oval leaves and put in the ground.
You really dont want to fall into a patch of the stuff like a buddy did at our place in Junction Texas. He was drunker than cooter brown and standing on a ledge,one second he was there the next he was gone.
He rolled down a hill that was covered in the stuff. In the end it worked out pretty good for him. My brother had brought several girls from the Men's Club and they stripped him down and pulled all the needles they could.

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

During the drought here a few years back, ranchers were burning off the spines on the plants so that the livestock could eat them.

Personally, I find more than a little bit of the green gives me stomach issues, jam made from the fruit, no problems.

 

[Buttoni]

The leaves are medicinal as well.
Devil's walking stick AKA
Toothache Tree - Your Roadside Source Of Pain Relief And Other Survival Aids - Prepper's Will (prepperswill.com)

Other uses: topical pain relief of wounds, scent masking for hunting, insecticide, garden repellent for rabbits...

Thanks for the tip. Someone on one of my gardening forums was talking about these a couple years back and I didn't take the time to check them out. I'm impressed with the 'resume'. Just ordered one in 1 gal. pot from for $12.00 from these folks: Zanthoxylum clava-herculis Toothache Tree

 

[DrHenley]

The leaves are medicinal as well.
Devil's walking stick AKA
Toothache Tree - Your Roadside Source Of Pain Relief And Other Survival Aids - Prepper's Will (prepperswill.com)

Other uses: topical pain relief of wounds, scent masking for hunting, insecticide, garden repellent for rabbits...

Devil's Walking Stick (Aralia spinosa sometimes called Hercules Club) doesn't have any medicinal properties. It is often confused with Zanthoxylum clava-herculis, the southern prickly ash, or Zanthoxylum americana, the northern prickly ash, which are also called the Hercules Club (wherein lies the confusion). Those are the toothache trees, not the Devil's Walking Stick.

 

[Jayson]

If there is a total economic and social collapse of society, how do we defend ourselves?

 

[GaRp58]

Prickly Pear cactus would work as well they grow like weeds. And you can eat the red bulbs and the green leaves after burning off all the needles.

We just found some prickly pear here. An older pair has them in their vineyard and did not know what they were or what to do with them. I picked a bulb and ate it then and there...we too six pieces with the roots home and planted it behind the pigpen next to the compost. Wish I could find a barrel cactus also. Used those for water back then too. Cut off the top, mix the innards and eat. Kinda like Elmers glue...but water.

 

[TexPrep]

We just found some prickly pear here. An older pair has them in their vineyard and did not know what they were or what to do with them. I picked a bulb and ate it then and there...we too six pieces with the roots home and planted it behind the pigpen next to the compost. Wish I could find a barrel cactus also. Used those for water back then too. Cut off the top, mix the innards and eat. Kinda like Elmers glue...but water.

Prickly pear will pretty much grow anywhere in Texas.
Although it grows best in the arid areas.

 

[GaRp58]

Our cactus has pads only about as big as my closed flat hand tho. I hope they will grow well and fast now. I set them on the south side since we only get sunshine in winter from 8 am till 4 pm...short days and long nights.

 

[GeorgiaPeachie]

Thanks for the tip. Someone on one of my gardening forums was talking about these a couple years back and I didn't take the time to check them out. I'm impressed with the 'resume'. Just ordered one in 1 gal. pot from for $12.00 from these folks: Zanthoxylum clava-herculis Toothache Tree

Be careful with these. They are exceedingly invasive. They also have big needles on them.

 

[Buttoni]

I saw about the invasiveness possibility. So I was planning on planting it way away from our mowed, cabin area and plant it at the perimeter vegetation line for that reason. I think I may confine it in one of my huge 28"x30" pots I keep at the cabin. Pot confining will stunt/slow growth and root spread , like it does when you keep Japanese Maples in large pots for years like the Brits do. Since the article I read said it's the leaves you use to relieve tooth pain, that resource should be available on a really young, small tree. That's my thinking, anyway. Leather gloves should help on the thorn issues. I've lived in close proximity to pyracanthia and bougainvillia bushes 8'-12'tall, so I'm pretty adept at avoiding viscious thorns.

 

[DrHenley]

There are hundreds of Zanthoxylum (prickly ash) species in North America, South America, Asia, and Africa, all with similar medicinal properties.
Some prickly ash trivia:
Szechuan pepper is unrelated to black pepper (Piper nigrum). It is the dried fruit of the Chinese prickly ash tree (Zanthoxylum armatum and Zanthoxylum bungeanum) with the pit removed.
In the Sherlock Holmes movie Mr. Holmes, Holmes used Japanese prickly ash (Zanthoxylum piperitem) to improve his memory.
In Southern Korea, they drop prickly ash fruit into the water to stun fish.

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

Devil's Walking Stick (Aralia spinosa sometimes called Hercules Club) doesn't have any medicinal properties. I

A. Spinoza
Aralia spinosa L

(Devil's walking stick) was also used by Native Americans to treat toothaches.

According to Le Page du Praz in his History of Louisana (1758), as quoted in Donald Culross Peattie’s A Natural History of Trees (1950), “the inner bark has the property of curing the toothache. The patient rolls it up the size of a bean, puts it upon the aching tooth.”

Steven Foster and James A. Duke suggest in A Field Guide to Medicinal Plants (1990) that a “tincture of berries was also used for toothaches.”

The white settlers learned these applications from the Cherokees and other Indian tribes of the region. Paul B. Hamel and Mary U. Chiltoskey in Cherokee Plants: Their Uses — A 400 Year History (1975), state that the plant was not only used for “ache of decaying teeth” but as a root-salve for old sores or as a root tea for a variety of ailments.

Native American Uses: Infusions and decoctions were made from Devils Walking Stick as a dermatological aid, an emetic, a carminative, and to treat toothaches and rheumatism. Decoctions made from the roots were used as a salve for boils and sores, as well as to reduce fevers. The young leaves were eaten if gathered before the prickles harden; they were chopped finely and cooked as a potherb. The Cherokee and Rappahannock Indians are among the Native American tribes known to have utilized this species.

Colonial Uses: Devil’s Walking Stick was introduced into cultivation in 1688 and the bark of the root and the berries were used in medicines.

Devil's Walking Stick (maryland.gov)

 

[Buttoni]

So getting the one I just bought is like embracing my Cherokee roots. Since I don't respond to lidocaine (not in my preps), I will have a natural pain cure growing in my front yard. That works for me.

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

My Paternal Grandmother was Lakota and Blackfoot Sioux, but, I have been studying the Cherokee and Tejas culture since that is the history of the area my BOL is in. Different plants but, similar ways of viewing nature!

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

Even the Fern, has been used for its medicinal properties...your suburban front yard can be a post SHTF medicine box if you plan ahead and learn.

Medicinal Benefits of Ferns (permaculture.co.uk)

I have used cloves for tooth abscesses as well. Got me through the pain until the antibiotics kicked in.

 

[DrHenley]

Confusion between the Devil's Walking Stick and the Hercules Club is rampant. You can Google Devil's Walking Stick and find pictures of Hercules Club and vice versa. I've seen "authoritative" web sites call Aralia spinosa prickly ash, which is most certainly is not. All prickly ash are in the genus Zanthoxylem.
Here is an example:
https://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=arsp2I'll need to some independent research on the medicinal properties of the Devil's Walking Stick, because web sites are hopelessly confusing on the subject.

 

[Buttoni]

@rainingcatzanddogs .....Darn! I can't get ferns to grow for me. Tried 4 ostrich ferns last year in a shady spot under some trees. An armadillo I saw meandering that week and a neighborhood fox were apparently quite fond of them. The fox even drug one of the rhizomes up onto my porch to eat it! I found the remnants and quickly realized what it was. I've seen him on the porch more than once! All 4 vanished in the same week at 4" tall.

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

Confusion between the Devil's Walking Stick and the Hercules Club is rampant. You can Google Devil's Walking Stick and find pictures of Hercules Club and vice versa. I've seen "authoritative" web sites call Aralia spinosa prickly ash, which is most certainly is not. All prickly ash are in the genus Zanthoxylem.
Here is an example:
https://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=arsp2I'll need to some independent research on the medicinal properties of the Devil's Walking Stick, because web sites are hopelessly confusing on the subject.

Agreed it gets confusing. What I have found is this....indigenous people use what is available in their area. Maladies are universal so plants were found in each area to treat those ailments.

That is not to say that because Arlia spinosa was used by Texas Cherokee to treat tooth aches, and Prickly Ash was used by East coast Cherokee, that they both cannot have been found to serve the same function.

American Civil War plant medicines inhibit growth, biofilm formation, and quorum sensing by multidrug-resistant bacteria | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

@rainingcatzanddogs .....Darn! I can't get ferns to grow for me. Tried 4 ostrich ferns last year in a shady spot under some trees. An armadillo I saw meandering that week and a neighborhood fox were apparently quite fond of them. The fox even drug one of the rhizomes up onto my porch to eat it! I found the remnants and quickly realized what it was. I've seen him on the porch more than once! All 4 vanished in the same week at 4" tall.

Ferns do well in pots on a porch! They just like shade and moisture. In central Texas that can sometimes be an issue. You can hang the pots off the trees...just don't forget to water!

 

[DrHenley]

I keep finding more and more sites that conflate the two. We have many Devil's Walking Stick thickets at the BOL, so next time I'm over there I will collect some fresh bark and berries if they are out.. I don't think it's in the natural range of any prickly ash species. We certainly have our share of thorny trees, with Swamp Locusts in the wetlands and Honey Locusts in the uplands.

 

[Buttoni]

I'll have to try the tree hanging method, as our resident gray fox 'uses' my porch often. Caught him in broad daylight jumping off it on one end to head out down the street for his evening prowl for food. We think he's who dug a big hole up under the Aspidistras in a corner flowerbed Feb 2021 in the 'snowpocalypse'. You can see him just to the right of the column marking his territory (said flowerbed) in this photo:

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

Two books I have found helpful.

NATIVE AMERICAN HERBALIST’S BIBLE

And...

Medical Herbalism: The Science Principles and Practices Of Herbal Medicine (amazon)

***^^The above book is definitely more of a read if you have a solid understanding of organic chemistry and some knowledge of pharmacology. Otherwise, I'd say skip that one.

Alternative:
Herbal Antibiotics: Natural Alternatives for Treating Drug-Resistant Bacteria

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

I keep finding more and more sites that conflate the two. We have many Devil's Walking Stick thickets at the BOL, so next time I'm over there I will collect some fresh bark and berries if they are out.. I don't think it's in the natural range of any prickly ash species. We certainly have our share of thorny trees, with Swamp Locusts in the wetlands and Honey Locusts in the uplands.

Not surprising. Did you read the study I posted above? American Civil War plant medicines inhibit growth, biofilm formation, and quorum sensing by multidrug-resistant bacteria | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Given the source is an organization dedicated to the study of natural medicines, I am fairly sure that they got the plant species right that they were studying.

Some still say that natural medicines don't work at all so you are bound to find conflicting opinions.
I don't believe any one plant is a panacea cure for all that ails you! But, like the proven willow bark, they can each have a role.

 

[DrHenley]

Not surprising. Did you read the study I posted above? American Civil War plant medicines inhibit growth, biofilm formation, and quorum sensing by multidrug-resistant bacteria | Scientific Reports (nature.com)

Given the source is an organization dedicated to the study of natural medicines, I am fairly sure that they got the plant species right that they were studying.

Some still say that natural medicines don't work at all so you are bound to find conflicting opinions.
I don't believe any one plant is a panacea cure for all that ails you! But, like the proven willow bark, they can each have a role.

Yes, I did, thank for providing that link.

 

[keepitlow]

If there is a total economic and social collapse of society, how do we defend ourselves? Its all very well being a prepper now, but are we not going to end up with a situation where there are armed militias that will simply take over our resources? I have just purchased a small farm in Scotland. While I have resources at present, how would I stop others taking it over by force? If a gang turns up with guns, there is practically very little I can do about it. The situation is even worse here (and much of the world), as unlike the USA, we are legally prohibited from having guns. The criminals don’t care, as they have guns anyway. Even if I did have a gun, there is no way I could fight off a heavily armed militia on my own. It's a practical question and I wonder what we do about it? Do we try and form our own militias? Or do we abandon farming / land and live in the wilderness as hunter / gatherers?

Some things just can't be fixed. Ther is no magic bullet to fix every problem.

Hopefully for you, the people of Scotland are more peaceful in collapse than the Americans.

 

[DrHenley]

The plot thickens...LOL
I just found out that the BOL is not in the natural range of Aralia spinosa, but there is a closely related Chinese species, Aralia elata, that is an invasive species here, so we may have Aralia elata.
In Korea, they pick the shoots off the top of the plant in the spring and fry them.

 

[rainingcatzanddogs]

The plot thickens...LOL
I just found out that the BOL is not in the natural range of Aralia spinosa, but there is a closely related Chinese species, Aralia elata, that is an invasive species here, so we may have Aralia elata.
In Korea, they pick the shoots off the top of the plant in the spring and fry them.

I have so many times taken a walk through a forest and found something that wasn't "supposed to" be there. It's like "Well hello there. What are you doing here? Are you lost?" They quite often look happy. Mother nature has a way of giving "supposed to" scientists the middle finger! LOL.

 

[DrHenley]

I've noticed that they only grow on ridges that have never flooded (at least not in my lifetime) Most of our woods are under water in wet years during the winter and spring. Maybe that's why it's not supposed to be in our area, most places in that region are very flat with hardly any ridges. We have ridges. It was used as a winter quarters for Union soldiers during the war for that very reason.