Now where did I put my shocked face???

[Gazrok]

Thing is, there are few different KINDS of homeless, and they are separate problems to be addressed with separate solutions. You can't just lump them all together.

1. The "traditional" homeless, the ones who are only homeless because they lost their income, and fell on hard times. They want to work, and have a home again, and a job again, etc. SOLUTION - work programs that include housing options

2. The "addict" homeless, like the above, but are in this situation due to being addicted to some substance, so can't dig themselves out. SOLUTION - same as the above, but including a Rehab program, and supervision almost as a criminal.

3. The "lazy" homeless, perhaps the most difficult to solve. These folks actually enjoy the do nothing lifestyle, even with its risks. Indeed, the risks may even be part of it. They have no desire to better themselves, so a program won't help them. For these types, you have one of two choices...leave them to their own devices, or take care of them, knowing it will never improve. These are the ones who make the most mess, and why they build the park benches the way they do, etc. So, you have to decide...enable them, or treat them as a nuisance?

 

[TexasFreedom]

Gazrok,

You missed probably the 2nd largest group. Mentally ill. I think addicts are #1 in numbers with mental cases #2.

Regarding the lazy, I have zero problem leaving them to their own demise.

For the 'traditional homeless', I think they're either #3 or #4. I have no problem giving people a 'hand up'. Not a hand out. Time limited.

 

[Psalm7]

This new industry that turns panhandling into a carreer should be illegal . On My commute to work I pass several that have become land marks always the same place wearing the same clothes . I know people that have bought groceries for them and they set them down and leave them , I have seen these panhandlers in stores dressed nice and buying dvd's and cd's .

 

[user 7704]

This new industry that turns panhandling into a carreer should be illegal . On My commute to work I pass several that have become land marks always the same place wearing the same clothes . I know people that have bought groceries for them and they set them down and leave them , I have seen these panhandlers in stores dressed nice and buying dvd's and cd's .

There's a few locals that have been arrested many times for harassing people at the exit ramps. One guy drives a practically new SUV. They take pictures of them and put on the local fb page to warn people.

 

[TexasFreedom]

If you want to open the topic to panhandling, that's another can of worms.

Every once in a while a group show up for a day in a town near me. They have hand-drawn signs with a church name. They all look rough, usually all black (in a 90% white+hispanic town). Stopped & talked to one of the people, she was honest. They are all druggies from the nearest big town. A guy goes around rounding them up, drives them to a small town to work the street lights asking for handouts, and pays them a percentage.

It was only a minute or two before a 'coordinator' came over & told her to stop talking. Heard enough. Just another scam.

Never 'give' to a person/group that you are not familiar with. If you give to an individual, never do cash. Talk with them. Walk over to a McD's with them & buy them a meal. But the greatest gift you can give them is conversation. Encouragement. Treat them like a normal person, it's likely been ages since they were treated that way. Dignity has value beyond measure. You'll figure out fairly quickly if they are druggies, mental, 'lost', or whatever.

But many people think giving them money will help (actually just make the giver feel better). Wrong. It'll be flowing in their veins within 30 minutes. If you give cash to an addict, you're giving them drugs. Often other 'gifts' are sold/traded for drugs. Watch it go down their throat if you're feeding them. Unless you want them living at your house, let groups like Salvation Army bed them.

 

[Squirtgunsquirter]

When I ran away from home as a kid I was technically homeless. I lived in some abandoned buildings, with friends on and off, at a crackhouse...

I knew most of the other homeless people, we had a pretty high homeless population for a town of 26,000 (had a mental institution close in the late 70's, and many of them were housed FEMA style in trailers in the west end of town, but would just wander off and live in the street).

Maybe just because of the institution, most of the adult homeless had mental issues. Pretty severe issues. Guys dressed in garbage bags who thought they were Jesus and would preach to you, or try to heal you. A guy who thought he was a knight and wore a suit of armor made of downspouts and duct tape. A couple red headed brothers. Many more too dangerous to do anything but get away from, at the age of 13.

It was pretty wild. Me and a couple other kids would walk around smelling, and find people grilling and cooking out during football games they were watching inside. A few minutes watching, and you would be running down the alleys juggling screaming hot burgers and brats. We learned how to shim padlocks and card locks and pop doors, but never pick locks. We ate so many teenage mutant ninja turtle pizzas by popping the door at a distribution center!

Lots of drugs around. Most of the druggies would crash at the crackhouse, and then go home to clean up, then rinse and repeat after stealing money from their family, or whoever. I actually worked, at a farm, and a horse ranch, and at a golf course through high school. I would ride my bike everywhere, and eventually (sophomore year?) my dad bought me a Kawasaki 100 as a gift, and for staying in school, mostly, through all of it. That helped a lot with work and getting around. Man, I could ride a BMX bike 30 miles! Like nothing. I saw some overdoses, and a few deaths. A few police raids, broken doors, busted through a wall once to get into a room they couldn't break the door down on. I went to jail a lot, but never had any drug charges pressed. They would send me home, and I would run away again, until I got emancipated then everyone left me alone.

I never panhandled. I did steal, food, change from cars, shoplifting. Never got caught. A lot of fights, I had a bunch of assault charges but all as a minor and many of them dropped, the Judge was a really good guy, and a lot of the time, if it was with the older homeless guys they wouldn't call the cops.

Very few were just lazy. You have to have a certain amount of determination to stay homeless, when programs are available. Or you have a mental problem, or you are an addict who cant use at the shelter, or you have to be like me and have a disagreement with your folks and be too stubborn to ever back down.

But lazy? Let me tell you, in the Midwest at least, it gets cold. It's hard to find food, it's most of your time is just figuring out where your next meal is coming from. It's a job. Seriously. If you don't want to dumpster dive, or throw yourself on the mercy of the state, you are going to have a job, the job title is "not starving'. I would go 4 or 5 days solid without food. I liked school because of the cafeteria, but the lunch ladies were cruel and wouldn't let you take as much as you wanted to. I honestly think those years stunted my growth!

Still, when I see the guys at the intersection begging, if they can do that? If they are together enough mentally to do that, just to write the sign, they can do something else. There are places in Madison that you show up at 7 am, they will put you on a job somewhere. And the city has bus programs for the disadvantaged.

I got cleaned up in the military, and I was BLESSED that I avoided a serious enough criminal record that they would take me. I would probably be dead long ago otherwise. I was going into Chicago to pick up and move drugs all through High School. People stuck guns in my face, man people are crazy and unpredictable, especially around kids for some reason. Fake tough guys and cowards. I did ok though, you just have to learn to pick out the bad ones.

It isn't anyone's responsibility to "help" most homeless people, IMO. For the ones living in their car, showering at the truck stop, they are already on their way up and out, they have it together. I feel bad if small kids are involved, yeah help them out, food pantries, and maybe some housing help if they want it. But most people wont be helped by help. They will just be "tided over" until the next time they lose it. And they will, I have watched it happen over and over. It's a shame, but you can't help most of them. You can for a little while, but that's it. You can't fix them. I can't think of any way that you could.

I had to decide to clean up my life, and I had to be very careful to keep myself in a situation where I could clean it up when the time was right. If people aren't taking that care, to keep just a bare minimum of concern for rejoining society, then they don't want help anyway, they will refuse it. They will curse you for wanting to help.

 

[user 7704]

When I ran away from home as a kid I was technically homeless. I lived in some abandoned buildings, with friends on and off, at a crackhouse...

I knew most of the other homeless people, we had a pretty high homeless population for a town of 26,000 (had a mental institution close in the late 70's, and many of them were housed FEMA style in trailers in the west end of town, but would just wander off and live in the street).

Maybe just because of the institution, most of the adult homeless had mental issues. Pretty severe issues. Guys dressed in garbage bags who thought they were Jesus and would preach to you, or try to heal you. A guy who thought he was a knight and wore a suit of armor made of downspouts and duct tape. A couple red headed brothers. Many more too dangerous to do anything but get away from, at the age of 13.

It was pretty wild. Me and a couple other kids would walk around smelling, and find people grilling and cooking out during football games they were watching inside. A few minutes watching, and you would be running down the alleys juggling screaming hot burgers and brats. We learned how to shim padlocks and card locks and pop doors, but never pick locks. We ate so many teenage mutant ninja turtle pizzas by popping the door at a distribution center!

Lots of drugs around. Most of the druggies would crash at the crackhouse, and then go home to clean up, then rinse and repeat after stealing money from their family, or whoever. I actually worked, at a farm, and a horse ranch, and at a golf course through high school. I would ride my bike everywhere, and eventually (sophomore year?) my dad bought me a Kawasaki 100 as a gift, and for staying in school, mostly, through all of it. That helped a lot with work and getting around. Man, I could ride a BMX bike 30 miles! Like nothing. I saw some overdoses, and a few deaths. A few police raids, broken doors, busted through a wall once to get into a room they couldn't break the door down on. I went to jail a lot, but never had any drug charges pressed. They would send me home, and I would run away again, until I got emancipated then everyone left me alone.

I never panhandled. I did steal, food, change from cars, shoplifting. Never got caught. A lot of fights, I had a bunch of assault charges but all as a minor and many of them dropped, the Judge was a really good guy, and a lot of the time, if it was with the older homeless guys they wouldn't call the cops.

Very few were just lazy. You have to have a certain amount of determination to stay homeless, when programs are available. Or you have a mental problem, or you are an addict who cant use at the shelter, or you have to be like me and have a disagreement with your folks and be too stubborn to ever back down.

But lazy? Let me tell you, in the Midwest at least, it gets cold. It's hard to find food, it's most of your time is just figuring out where your next meal is coming from. It's a job. Seriously. If you don't want to dumpster dive, or throw yourself on the mercy of the state, you are going to have a job, the job title is "not starving'. I would go 4 or 5 days solid without food. I liked school because of the cafeteria, but the lunch ladies were cruel and wouldn't let you take as much as you wanted to. I honestly think those years stunted my growth!

Still, when I see the guys at the intersection begging, if they can do that? If they are together enough mentally to do that, just to write the sign, they can do something else. There are places in Madison that you show up at 7 am, they will put you on a job somewhere. And the city has bus programs for the disadvantaged.

I got cleaned up in the military, and I was BLESSED that I avoided a serious enough criminal record that they would take me. I would probably be dead long ago otherwise. I was going into Chicago to pick up and move drugs all through High School. People stuck guns in my face, man people are crazy and unpredictable, especially around kids for some reason. Fake tough guys and cowards. I did ok though, you just have to learn to pick out the bad ones.

It isn't anyone's responsibility to "help" most homeless people, IMO. For the ones living in their car, showering at the truck stop, they are already on their way up and out, they have it together. I feel bad if small kids are involved, yeah help them out, food pantries, and maybe some housing help if they want it. But most people wont be helped by help. They will just be "tided over" until the next time they lose it. And they will, I have watched it happen over and over. It's a shame, but you can't help most of them. You can for a little while, but that's it. You can't fix them. I can't think of any way that you could.

I had to decide to clean up my life, and I had to be very careful to keep myself in a situation where I could clean it up when the time was right. If people aren't taking that care, to keep just a bare minimum of concern for rejoining society, then they don't want help anyway, they will refuse it. They will curse you for wanting to help.

I started to say you are ucky, but luck doesn't play into the scenario. You were smart enough to get out of the situation and join the military. Sometimes I think doing away with the draft hurt a lot of young men. I wouldn' want my son in the military, but there wouldn't be all of the street thugs that we have now if they had some discipline. Most have men over had a father figure or been shown any other way of life.

 

[Squirtgunsquirter]

I look back, I don't feel so smart about it all lol.

 

[user 7704]

I look back, I don't feel so smart about it all lol.

The life expectancy on the street isn't that long or you go to jail. So you did something right.

 

[Kevin L]

Thing is, there are few different KINDS of homeless, and they are separate problems to be addressed with separate solutions. You can't just lump them all together.

1. The "traditional" homeless, the ones who are only homeless because they lost their income, and fell on hard times. They want to work, and have a home again, and a job again, etc. SOLUTION - work programs that include housing options

2. The "addict" homeless, like the above, but are in this situation due to being addicted to some substance, so can't dig themselves out. SOLUTION - same as the above, but including a Rehab program, and supervision almost as a criminal.

3. The "lazy" homeless, perhaps the most difficult to solve. These folks actually enjoy the do nothing lifestyle, even with its risks. Indeed, the risks may even be part of it. They have no desire to better themselves, so a program won't help them. For these types, you have one of two choices...leave them to their own devices, or take care of them, knowing it will never improve. These are the ones who make the most mess, and why they build the park benches the way they do, etc. So, you have to decide...enable them, or treat them as a nuisance?

I propose another category.

Homeless veterans.

I was a paramedic for many years, and a disproportionate number of homeless people are military veterans who are disabled either mentally and/or physically, and they deserve to be in their own category because they fought for (and sacrificed) for our country...and it was this vital service that left them screwed up and on the street.

I believe that our obligation to such people is higher than our obligation to other categories of homeless, but that's me.

 

[user 7704]

I propose another category.

Homeless veterans.I

I was a paramedic for many years, and a disproportionate number of homeless people are military veterans who are disabled either mentally and/or physically, and they deserve to be in their own category because they fought for (and sacrificed) for our country...and it was this vital service that left them screwed up and on the street.

I believe that our obligation to such people is higher than our obligation to other categories of homeless, but that's me.

Our Vets should be taken care of first. Their medical care is a disgrace.

 

[Gazrok]

I can agree there Kevin. They are under the broader group of those down on their luck, but yes, I'd agree we have a more immediate responsibility for these folks.

 

[Gazrok]

Our Vets should be taken care of first. Their medical care is a disgrace.

And yet Liberals want to hand over the entire system of healthcare for ALL of us, to the government.....um, they haven't done so hot at it....

 

[DrHenley]

I propose another category.
Homeless veterans.

Because of our proximity to Fort Benning, we have a good many down-on-their-luck veterans, I don't know that I'd say a LOT, but you do run into them occasionally. You can usually spot them easily. They are older, very polite, clean shaven, not well dressed, but they don't look shabby either. I do sometimes give them a few bucks, on a case-by-case basis.

 

[lonewolf]

i don't know about the USA but it has been said in the UK we don't have enough housing for all the people here now, never mind the ones yet to arrive or the ones not even born yet. overpopulation is a problem everywhere because the one thing humans are good at is producing babies.

 

[Kevin L]

i don't know about the USA but it has been said in the UK we don't have enough housing for all the people here now, never mind the ones yet to arrive or the ones not even born yet. overpopulation is a problem everywhere because the one thing humans are good at is producing babies.

I agree with you.

Religious people will disagree with me, but free birth control should be available to anyone who wants it.

I view the religious objections in the same light that I view religious objections to autopsy and vivisection, and the religious objections to handwashing by obstetricians in the 1800s.

Semmelweis discovered that handwashing prevents post partum infection...yet everyone objected because it violated God's laws when God punished Eve by saying that He would greatly increase her pains from childbirth.

This is part of why Semmelweis was put in a mental institution, and was silenced and discredited for much of his professional life.

In my mind, religious objection to birth control is the same thing.

 

[lonewolf]

I think they should stop giving free IVF treatments on the British health service, not being able to have children is not a disease.
and I speak as one who has never had kids, never wanted kids.

 

[DrHenley]

Kevin, I don't think you can make such black and white generalizations about it. Very few religious people believe in NO birth control. It is estimated that there are at most tens of thousands so called "Quiverfull" adherants who believe that everyone should have as many children as possible.

More common are adherants of "Natural Family Planning" which include Catholics and some Protestants. But the Protestants following that are in the minority.

Most Protestants accept contraception, but reject murdering innocent unborn children.

Whether or not the state should be involved is more of a political question than religious question. There are plenty of people who accept any form of birth control but think it is something left up to the individual, not the state.

 

[Squirtgunsquirter]

The VA has been pretty good to me. I've been in maybe twice? since I got out, it was always quick and painless. Once to get me on the books with a 0% percent disability rating (hearing loss) so I could get into the system, then again for an MRI for my shoulder and hip (accident in Japan in 95). No problems, but I have heard horror stories.

I think a lot of guys claim to be vets and aren't, but I don't really know that for sure.

 

[Kevin L]

Kevin, I don't think you can make such black and white generalizations about it. Very few religious people believe in NO birth control. It is estimated that there are at most tens of thousands so called "Quiverfull" adherants who believe that everyone should have as many children as possible.

More common are adherants of "Natural Family Planning" which include Catholics and some Protestants. But the Protestants following that are in the minority.

Most Protestants accept contraception, but reject murdering innocent unborn children.

Whether or not the state should be involved is more of a political question than religious question. There are plenty of people who accept any form of birth control but think it is something left up to the individual, not the state.

I don't disagree with you.

I meant that birth control should be freely available, but not forced on anyone.

Although abortion is a form of birth control, I really meant contraception and should have clarified my position.

The hospital that I used to work for didn't provide for birth control either for employee benefits, or for vasectomies and/or tubal ligations because it's a Catholic hospital.

They confiscated and destroyed condoms that were, technically, patients' property when working girls came into the ER...although, in fairness, this has been stopped.

The rational behind this policy was if the hospital was allowed to remove illegal drugs (because they're dangerous) from a patient's posession, then they're allowed to make policy regarding contraceptives on hospital property.

In other words, taking a hooker's condoms are a deterrant to their dangerous, self-destructive behavior, and is no different than forbidding cigarettes on hospital gounds.

At least that's the rationale.

 

[user 7704]

I cringe when I read that abortion is a form of birth control.

 

[Psalm7]

Anyone that participates in or supports abortion is guilty of Child murder .Despite all the arguments nearly all unborn Babies that are killed by the abortion industry are killed for convenience of a selfish Parent or parents . Planned parenthood is the biggest provider of systemic muder in this vile industry .
Over population has nothing to do with homelessness in any modern Country . Some homeless have mental illness I say most are addicted to alchol and or drugs . Some are let out of prison with little to no option. I know a lot of Vet's a couple have been homeless and some point in their life and it was alchol that lead them down the homeless path . Most admitt they were headed down that road before they ever got out of School .

 

[Gazrok]

Anyone that participates in or supports abortion is guilty of Child murder

No, they are guilty of terminating a potential human child.

So, are you committing child murder when you er um...pleasure yourself into an old sock?

That's kind of the thing about the debate...of where does an actual "child" begin.

Personally, I feel the same as you on it...but I also feel that I do not have the right to decide this for others. I would never do this with my own flesh and blood, but I also don't believe in forcing my beliefs on others either.

Over population has nothing to do with homelessness in any modern Country

What? Of course it does! It limits resources, it limits opportunities, jobs, housing, etc.

 

[Proud Prepper]

No, they are guilty of terminating a potential human child.

So, are you committing child murder when you er um...pleasure yourself into an old sock?

That's kind of the thing about the debate...of where does an actual "child" begin.

Personally, I feel the same as you on it...but I also feel that I do not have the right to decide this for others. I would never do this with my own flesh and blood, but I also don't believe in forcing my beliefs on others either.



What? Of course it does! It limits resources, it limits opportunities, jobs, housing, etc.

Sperm is not a developing child, once the sperm fertilizes the egg its a developing child. Big difference there.

 

[Psalm7]

No, they are guilty of terminating a potential human child.

So, are you committing child murder when you er um...pleasure yourself into an old sock?

That's kind of the thing about the debate...of where does an actual "child" begin.

Personally, I feel the same as you on it...but I also feel that I do not have the right to decide this for others. I would never do this with my own flesh and blood, but I also don't believe in forcing my beliefs on others either.



What? Of course it does! It limits resources, it limits opportunities, jobs, housing, etc.

Life begins at conception . I don't need politicians to pass a law to tell Me that . Its good You do have prolife values .
Never heard the old sock thing before .
Overpopulation may affect the homeless population in underdeveloped Countries but not in any modern Country . Iv known of homelesd People being housed for free and end up back on the street .

 

[Gazrok]

Life begins at conception

So, birth control is fine to you then, correct? After all, it's just designed to prevent conception, whether it's the adhesion of the egg, or preventing the sperm from fertilizing the egg.

Or instead, are we going with the whole sex for any purpose other than procreation is a sin nonsense?

Life begins at conception

While you and I agree on this concept, there are many, many who do not. I cannot presume to force others to conform to how I define it.

 

[Gazrok]

Sperm is not a developing child, once the sperm fertilizes the egg its a developing child. Big difference there.

I'd agree, but my point is that some do not agree. For some, sex without procreation is murder of these potential lives. The basic point is that the "when" is a matter of debate that may be more determined by culture than any rationality.

 

[DrHenley]

Conception is the usual starting point. Some argue later, like when the heart starts beating.

Playing a bit of devil's advocate: Religious beliefs aside, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness are the three "unalienable rights" mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. What we have is one person's right to life in conflict with another person's pursuit of happiness. Now I personally believe the right to life supersedes some else's right to the pursuit of happiness. But, a lot of people think that the right to the pursuit of happiness supersedes the right to life.

I am of the opinion that the balancing of these rights should be left up to the States, not the Federal Government. That way, you can choose to live in a state whose laws are in line with your beliefs. This was supposed to be one of the advantages of a Federalist system, but that has been negated down through the years by things like the Civil Rights Act and Roe v Wade. Roe v Wade in my opinion is unconstitutional in that respect.

 

[Psalm7]

Or instead, are we going with the whole sex for any purpose other than procreation is a sin

Iv been a Christian for as long as I can remember and make My own decisions . I have never heard a Preacher teach that. The Bible does not teach such either and Iv mostly attended Bible Teaching Baptist church .

 

[TexasFreedom]

I don't know any Christian who says every time you have sex with your spouse you should get a child.

I think you can get radical in either direction. The above idea would be out there. Anyone who says you can kill a baby with partial-birth abortion is even further out there.

I had mentioned before what I think is a reasonable definition: heartbeat. It begins between 3 and 6 weeks of age.

So a condom is reasonable. The 'pill' works fairly well and meets this requirement. The internet says one woman had over 50 abortions, that's mass murder.

But Doc said it best. It's a conflict of 2 basic rights. There is no place for the federal gov't to be involved here. Let each state decide their own interpretation of which right is best for their citizens. But then the Feds have long since thought any state has any choices or rights.

Note that none of this addresses sex outside marriage. That's another topic.