Prepper Ethics

[Schattentarn]

A couple years ago on another forum someone was talking about a three day pack and what should be included. He asked if an additional pack should be folded up and included in the basic pack--a strong sack like thing to use to " scavenge" should the opportunity present itself. Let me amplify and flesh out what he meant. Suppose the world stopped, you are in your bug out location or just live there but you are hearing no news, nothing. You decide to do some recon work, pack a three day pack and head out. After some distance you arrive at a building. It is not being used, perhaps damaged. You enter and find things which you can use in your survival. These may be electronics, ammo, food, whatever. The person originating the question about the additional sack said it would be of use to gather these goods.

Well, immediately someone said this person is not scavenging, he is looting. How does he know someone is not on their way to their bug out location---and this is it. This second person said the first person risks being shot as a looter at this point. Of course, the first guy didn't think of himself as a looter, only someone seizing on an opportunity to survive.

So where are we? I can see myself in both situations with both points of view. What is ethical for preppers in this situation? Give me your reaction and thoughts.

 

[user 7704]

I would have a problem taking someone else's property. I think that is more of my upbringing rather than a prepper thing.

A couple years ago on another forum someone was talking about a three day pack and what should be included. He asked if an additional pack should be folded up and included in the basic pack--a strong sack like thing to use to " scavenge" should the opportunity present itself. Let me amplify and flesh out what he meant. Suppose the world stopped, you are in your bug out location or just live there but you are hearing no news, nothing. You decide to do some recon work, pack a three day pack and head out. After some distance you arrive at a building. It is not being used, perhaps damaged. You enter and find things which you can use in your survival. These may be electronics, ammo, food, whatever. The person originating the question about the additional sack said it would be of use to gather these goods.

Well, immediately someone said this person is not scavenging, he is looting. How does he know someone is not on their way to their bug out location---and this is it. This second person said the first person risks being shot as a looter at this point. Of course, the first guy didn't think of himself as a looter, only someone seizing on an opportunity to survive.

So where are we? I can see myself in both situations with both points of view. What is ethical for preppers in this situation? Give me your reaction and thoughts.

 

[kevin321]

I wouldn’t loot/steal/scavenge unless my life depended on it.

 

[Mountain trapper]

Very simple; if it ain't yours its stealing, and the owner has every right to shoot the theif.
If you want to scavenge then stick to wild edibles, just not on my property.

 

[Oddcaliber]

You bring up an interesting observation. I do understand both sides of the coin in this situation. First off if the aforementioned building is truly abandoned and shows no signs of life and the found items are not under lock and key than I would take the items. Should there be someone there than I'll leave it be.

 

[Jayson]

Very simple; if it ain't yours its stealing, and the owner has every right to shoot the theif.

Back in The Wild West they would hang horse thieves.

 

[Jayson]

...today horse thieves get an apology, 2 tickets to Hawaii and a Get Out of Jail Free card.

 

[LiveTrap]

Six weeks into a total collapse, don't touch a thing. One year into a total collapse, I'd say no one is coming and if I don't take it, someone else will. It has to look like no one had been there for a very long time though. This is why you bury your supplies in the woods somewhere nearby. Maybe sealed up in plastic plumbing tube. I don't have such a place, so I guess I don't have to worry about it.

 

[Dracos]

A very interesting question, I too see both sides. My wife and I have discussed this and and our plan is(may be foolish) If I catch thieves on our land, Instead of killing them, I will offer them food and shelter, IF they agree to work for us tending and harvesting crops next season. I know some of you are saying "Fool, Idiot"
but realize that after a shtf situation labor may become very valuable. I would greatly value your opinion.
on this.

 

[Illini Warrior]

so this FEMA 72 Hour figures out that they made a HUGE mistake - decides to correct it by looting - kills the home/biz owner that confronts them >> no longer a looter but a murder - or do you have another name & justification for this new occurrence ...

and for all the justifiers out there >>> they intend to only loot the "vacant or abandoned" - you think the owners will be advertising their occupation? - it's a be a murderer or get murdered situation when you go to loot ....

 

[LiveTrap]

but realize that after a shtf situation labor may become very valuable. I would greatly value your opinion.
on this.

Sounds a little like the south prior to 1861. No, I'm just kidding. I don't think you can trust people so much in hard times to feed them for six months and expect them to stay around and work for what they have already consumed. It's not like you can do a repossession. If they showed up right at harvest time, and they were good workers, you could probably trust them to build a long term working business relationship. So for me, it is a matter of timing.

 

[Dani]

Honestly I would prepare for you and your family needs BEFORE a SHTF situation. Get all your ducks in a row to provide for all situations. I wouldnt want no names invading my Bug Out Location either if that is what I would choose for a final destination. At the begining, I would think shoot first ask questions later. If we are talking many months or years after the start, I would think it would be fair game, BUT think it would be enter on your own risk. They may have had to step out to forage or hunt and coming back. Right now I feel like I am prepared, But I never know what the future holds. I may want to take advantage if I am desperate. I just need to realize I may have to pay the consequences. . .

 

[LexiRae]

I think the timeline and circumstances will have to determine my decision in this scenario but if the building is untouched and damaged, I wouldn’t feel guilt, just concern about being shot.

 

[GaRp58]

LexiRae just about hits the nail. The timing, the situation, my condition, trying to make contact with those possibly in this "abandoned" place, how long after the SHTF started...too many unknowns to evaluate...

 

[lonewolf]

if you cant make it, grow it or repair it, then learn to live without it.
any "abandoned" building could be ****y trapped or have someone watching from cover with a rifle, enter at your own risk.

 

[user 5884]

Same. I feel like days or weeks into an event is probably too soon. I think depending on the distance it'd be easy enough to check in periodically- see if there's been any activity, if any items have been used, maintained, or moved. But if you have everything accounted for on the front end- you shouldn't need to worry about acquiring it on the back end.

 

[tmttactical]

The time frame is the key component. In a major long term SHTF event, with an expected 80 to 90% die off, there is going to be a huge amount of scavenger items available. After 6 months to 1 year, if the owner has not returned to the property, chances are they are not going to make it back. NOTE: anytime you venture out, you will be taking your chances, so, scavenging is just one more risky venture. If you are out for a RECON, then you should be equipped with the tools to watch and determine if a place has been abandoned. There will be tell tale signs if a place has been vacant a long time or has been visited recently. The whole purpose of a recon, is to learn what is happening in your search area. That means take the time to study the property ground, the dust patterns on the walkway and in the house, cobwebs, etc. People don't like walking through cobwebs, so they will remove them. No cobwebs near the entry points, not abandoned. I would not feel bad or be morally concerned if I scavenged items from a property I know has been abandoned for a considerable amount of time ---- AFTER ---- a long term shtf event. JM2C

 

[Illini Warrior]

The time frame is the key component. In a major long term SHTF event, with an expected 80 to 90% die off, there is going to be a huge amount of scavenger items available. After 6 months to 1 year, if the owner has not returned to the property, chances are they are not going to make it back. NOTE: anytime you venture out, you will be taking your chances, so, scavenging is just one more risky venture. If you are out for a RECON, then you should be equipped with the tools to watch and determine if a place has been abandoned. There will be tell tale signs if a place has been vacant a long time or has been visited recently. The whole purpose of a recon, is to learn what is happening in your search area. That means take the time to study the property ground, the dust patterns on the walkway and in the house, cobwebs, etc. People don't like walking through cobwebs, so they will remove them. No cobwebs near the entry points, not abandoned. I would not feel bad or be morally concerned if I scavenged items from a property I know has been abandoned for a considerable amount of time ---- AFTER ---- a long term shtf event. JM2C

just because no one has been thru the front door in a while - it's open door to loot? >>> I make an arrangement with the bugged out neighbors to manage their properties - that contract doesn't just run dry because of some self determined termination date by a looter - ....

better find a tougher argument than dust and spider webs when you're facing a firing squad ....

 

[tmttactical]

just because no one has been thru the front door in a while - it's open door to loot? >>> I make an arrangement with the bugged out neighbors to manage their properties - that contract doesn't just run dry because of some self determined termination date by a looter - ....

better find a tougher argument than dust and spider webs when you're facing a firing squad ....

What make you think you will be around to watch the property. I hope you did notice I said a major shtf event with a 80 to 90% die off. Where are you going to get the bodies for a firing squad? I also mentioned scavenging would be a risky venture. You can pass up on the abandoned supplies, if you survive and if I have survived, I will be glad to cart them home.

 

[BillMasen]

What make you think you will be around to watch the property. I hope you did notice I said a major shtf event with a 80 to 90% die off. Where are you going to get the bodies for a firing squad? I also mentioned scavenging would be a risky venture. You can pass up on the abandoned supplies, if you survive and if I have survived, I will be glad to cart them home.

Stop using common sense it frightens the natives

 

[GaRp58]

A many-faceted discussion which has not found it end yet. There are so many sides to the story and many more side-effects to the wrong decisions...was this house in the city, a suburb or really in the woods?

better find a tougher argument than dust and spider webs when you're facing a firing squad ....

What if the "owners" have turned cannibal, left the house intact, left good stuff in sight and are only waiting for the food to be delivered in the form of your well armed and healthy BODY???
Just another (sicker than normal) thought for the day...we all know that some will be desperate post-SHTF and will resort to ANYTHING to survive. Without gardens, there will be a few less VEGAN people...GP

 

[BillMasen]

Its only looting if the owners are still present in a major disaster, otherwise its salvage. but I would not just turn up and help myself either. First I will observe the site for a few days. I dont think i would bother with private homes, to much to go wrong. I would print off some notices and leave them for the business owners to find then leave it for a month. If the notices have gone then I will leave, if they are untouched after a month I'll take what I need and leave payment.

Should be plenty to salvage after the 80/90% die off plus the wave of mass shootings that the crazies whose answer to everything is gunfire. and the " I will shoot, lynch, execute the looters" its a 50/50 chance they will shoot YOU.

 

[BillMasen]

The time frame is the key component. In a major long term SHTF event, with an expected 80 to 90% die off, there is going to be a huge amount of scavenger items available. After 6 months to 1 year, if the owner has not returned to the property, chances are they are not going to make it back. NOTE: anytime you venture out, you will be taking your chances, so, scavenging is just one more risky venture. If you are out for a RECON, then you should be equipped with the tools to watch and determine if a place has been abandoned. There will be tell tale signs if a place has been vacant a long time or has been visited recently. The whole purpose of a recon, is to learn what is happening in your search area. That means take the time to study the property ground, the dust patterns on the walkway and in the house, cobwebs, etc. People don't like walking through cobwebs, so they will remove them. No cobwebs near the entry points, not abandoned. I would not feel bad or be morally concerned if I scavenged items from a property I know has been abandoned for a considerable amount of time ---- AFTER ---- a long term shtf event. JM2C

Very good intelligent response, I agree with you. Personally I wont go into peoples homes though, I'll stick to businesses and industry.

 

[Illini Warrior]

A many-faceted discussion which has not found it end yet. There are so many sides to the story and many more side-effects to the wrong decisions...was this house in the city, a suburb or really in the woods?

What if the "owners" have turned cannibal, left the house intact, left good stuff in sight and are only waiting for the food to be delivered in the form of your well armed and healthy BODY???
Just another (sicker than normal) thought for the day...we all know that some will be desperate post-SHTF and will resort to ANYTHING to survive. Without gardens, there will be a few less VEGAN people...GP

you'll just have to brave that .223 to the brainpan to find out whether you're dealing with a "cannibal's" home that has been left totally unmolested - or - it's part of a protected neighborhood and POS looters are being shot for hog food ....

 

[lonewolf]

like Bill says, stick to industrial estates if you have to "scavenge", not residential homes, less chance of being shot, less but not none!

 

[Illini Warrior]

Its only looting if the owners are still present in a major disaster, otherwise its salvage. but I would not just turn up and help myself either. First I will observe the site for a few days. I dont think i would bother with private homes, to much to go wrong. I would print off some notices and leave them for the business owners to find then leave it for a month. If the notices have gone then I will leave, if they are untouched after a month I'll take what I need and leave payment.

Should be plenty to salvage after the 80/90% die off plus the wave of mass shootings that the crazies whose answer to everything is gunfire. and the " I will shoot, lynch, execute the looters" its a 50/50 chance they will shoot YOU.

in what apocalypse hell are you going to be living where a boarded up & guarded homeowner will only have a 50-50 chance against some POS looter? - there's neighborhoods right now that a looter would have a 2% chance of living thru a property trespassing foray - much less tearing doors down ...

totally different set of circumstances between a SHTF and a honest-to-God apocylypse of a massive kill-off >>> probably talking 100-500 max out of a 5,000 count community - better be doing some regional society building to survive the long run and less of a beenie weenie looting thru some pantry ....

 

[user 6493]

SHTF,,AND WHAT COMES NEXT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,first how bad are things,,,,is it going to last weeks months ,,,or years,,,,,,,,short term you leave everyone things alone and watch over those that are close,,,,,,your neighbors,,,,if it is long term and will go on for years, if places are deserted and owners have left or you know they are deceased it's all fair game ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in the end someone will find deserted homes and take what they want,,,I don't see it as theft at that point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


you can pretend you won't search a place if things go south and it is a year or so down the road,,,but trust me we all will....it's not theft at that point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT'S SURVIVAL

 

[lonewolf]

not what he said IW, he said that a looter had a 50/50 chance of getting shot, not the same thing.
"Society" wont even start to rebuild for many decades post SHTF.

 

[lonewolf]

SHTF,,AND WHAT COMES NEXT,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,first how bad are things,,,,is it going to last weeks months ,,,or years,,,,,,,,short term you leave everyone things alone and watch over those that are close,,,,,,your neighbors,,,,if it is long term and will go on for years, if places are deserted and owners have left or you know they are deceased it's all fair game ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,in the end someone will find deserted homes and take what they want,,,I don't see it as theft at that point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


you can pretend you won't search a place if things go south and it is a year or so down the road,,,but trust me we all will....it's not theft at that point,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,IT'S SURVIVAL

I wouldnt waste my time on residential houses, dont know about in the US but over here most people havent got half what I've got and most have nothing, unlike the sheeple I have been preparing for years, they probably have what they stand up in and nothing more, sure they've got a wide screen tv and the latest mobile phone but nothing I'd want in a SHTF world.

 

[user 6493]

I wouldnt waste my time on residential houses, dont know about in the US but over here most people havent got half what I've got and most have nothing, unlike the sheeple I have been preparing for years, they probably have what they stand up in and nothing more, sure they've got a wide screen tv and the latest mobile phone but nothing I'd want in a SHTF world.

stores will be picked clean inside of a week ,,even now good luck finding ammo,,,,what are you going to find in a deserted store that has been picked over after a few weeks,,,,,,,,,,,,,guns ammo and food left behind will be on the list of things needed,,,,and I doubt they will be in any stores,,,,,

I have ranchers around me ,,,there will be equipment and about 400 head of cattle here,,,if everyone but me is gone,it's food for a lifetime

ok you guys have my $.02 worth now,,,,,,,