Quick Clot.......gauze or the powder or "WHAT"

[Aerindel]

..which boasts the concept of the little added 'pressure cup' (that clear plastic oval, in the pic, there..) that - in theory - helps add a 'pressure point', to the area..

This is still part of EMT doctrine. We are told to use something like a roll of tape, small rock, etc, any convenient small hard object that you can place under your wrap to apply pressure in a spot. I've used this method on a small but spurting scalp wound that gauze along wouldn't stop but a roll of tape, taped itself to the wound applied enough pressure to stop it in moments. It worked REALLY well in that case because you had the skull on the backside so it was really easy to pinch off the vessel.

But, in all, like Aer said: Contiguous and Sufficient Pressure, and these bandages Can help, especially if 'solo' (though not sure how you 'DIY-fix a blown-off butt-cheek'.. Not one I've 'BTDT' on..

The sad thing is, there a lot of injuries so traumatic that all you can do is hopefully increase your survival long enough to get to a surgeon, and if you can't get to a surgeon, you don't make it, even if the injury itself won't be fatal for DAYS.

Without a hospital, almost all gunshot wounds will be eventually fatal. Almost all compound fractures will be fatal or require ampuation (which will usually be fatal. Almost all avulsions will be fatal or result in amputation. 'Eventually' in this case could even be a matter of weeks.

The advances in surgery, particularly during WWII can really not be understated. These days, you can survive most trauma if you are able to get to the hospital alive. There was a semi local person who had a forklift fall on him from a bridge who lost over 40% of his body mass to trauma but lived. (Pelvis, both legs and one arm)

 

[Sourdough]

Sounds like a story there...

"NO".......Not a story. And not bravado. Just a life spent where and how there was "Zero" chance of being found if injured, or even "Looked For or "Searched For" till weeks or months too late. It is not just me.........people are so "Normalcy Biased" of medical help being at-least somewhat available, they can't even phantom being flown into Alaska wilderness, and dropped off, and the bush-pilot saying, "OK.....I'll come pick you up in 60 days, stay safe".

This is still part of EMT doctrine. We are told to use something like a roll of tape, small rock, etc, any convenient small hard object that you can place under your wrap to apply pressure in a spot. I've used this method on a small but spurting scalp wound that gauze along wouldn't stop but a roll of tape, taped itself to the wound applied enough pressure to stop it in moments. It worked REALLY well in that case because you had the skull on the backside so it was really easy to pinch off the vessel.




The sad thing is, there a lot of injuries so traumatic that all you can do is hopefully increase your survival long enough to get to a surgeon, and if you can't get to a surgeon, you don't make it, even if the injury itself won't be fatal for DAYS.

Without a hospital, almost all gunshot wounds will be eventually fatal. Almost all compound fractures will be fatal or require ampuation (which will usually be fatal. Almost all avulsions will be fatal or result in amputation. 'Eventually' in this case could even be a matter of weeks.

The advances in surgery, particularly during WWII can really not be understated. These days, you can survive most trauma if you are able to get to the hospital alive. There was a semi local person who had a forklift fall on him from a bridge who lost over 40% of his body mass to trauma but lived. (Pelvis, both legs and one arm)

 

[SoJer]

This is still part of EMT doctrine. We are told to use something like a roll of tape, small rock, etc,..

Indeed, I was merely commenting on the value of the OLAES's "pressure cup" (also doubling as an "eye cup".. Ehh, I guess..) since it's kind of a 'small Spot' - vs - the 'pressure bar' that the Israeli-one uses.. The Olaes also has the 'removable gauze' (good idea..) and the 'occusive sheet' (personally, I think a 'proper' chest-seal would be better - for that-specific injury - but, Ehh.. again.. "Options" I just think the Olaes is an example of 'trying too hard'...

...The sad thing is, there a lot of injuries so traumatic that all you can do is hopefully increase your survival long enough to get to a surgeon, and if you can't get to a surgeon, you don't make it....

..Indeed, to say nothing of Sepsis.. Most 'camps' aren't going to be Able to deal with that properly / sufficiently..

..There was a semi local person who had a forklift fall on him from a bridge who lost over 40% of his body...but lived.

Wow! That's crazy that he didn't bleed out with That Much 'open'.. Indeed, sometimes there really is No 'rhyme or reason' to how things turn out in some accidents.. All ya can do is 'Prep / learn the Best ya Can - Try to Do the Best you Can.. But...be Sure to save plenty of Tequila.. For the (probable) In-case that it All goes south.

..and always Save 'One Last Bullet'...

.03
jd

 

[Aerindel]

"NO".......Not a story. And not bravado

I meant to say....Sounds like there is a story there....Not that it was made up, but that it's something interesting I wouldn't mind hearing more about, but I was trying to be subtle as I realize not all stories are ones people want to tell.

 

[Sourdough]

ONE LAST QUESTION..........I promise. (And many thanks for all the help in this thread).

So......requesting help with five or six most important things to have in a kit for having been chewed on by lion/tiger/bear.

This would "not" be a general first aid kit. I have five tourniquets (good ones) but doubt it is prudent to carry more the one. But knowing me I'll jam two in there. I have Quick Clot Sponge and Quick Clot Powder and later this week should have five miles of Quick Clot Gauze.

I likely have the other things you will suggest......But this thread has caused me to shift my thinking a massive amount. And accept that the outcome will be much bleaker then I have been pretending.

Very-very low probability of any help with-in many hours or more realistically days or weeks. I have also grossly over estimated my ability to realistically administer first aid, to "self" in a wilderness trauma event.

So.......just the very top most important things to have, considering it will be self administered, under sucky conditions. If we get more then a "football" size package, I know it will be not carried, there is just too much other stuff needed in the pack. Big think you for all the help.

 

[Aerindel]

I will think on this and get back to you.

but first off, if we are talking about a plan to survive several days or weeks post animal attack without professional medical care, then antibiotics are a must. Infection following animal bites is a high risk and within 2-3 days can disable you with fever, pain, swelling etc.

 

[Sourdough]

I will think on this and get back to you.

but first off, if we are talking about a plan to survive several days or weeks post animal attack without professional medical care, then antibiotics are a must. Infection following animal bites is a high risk and within 2-3 days can disable you with fever, pain, swelling etc.

TRUE.........But I must plan for something........I have been very luck, only one small bear bite and one long "Quasi-mauling" with no injury. My time for continuing this lifestyle is very short. I'll need to move soon. There is also the possibility that a mauling would not be very horrific. Some people only get bitten a few times.......my neighbor got mauled to death and eaten. If you play this game you take the results your dealt.

Thanks for carefully thinking about this. Wish I had been this awake 52 years ago.

 

[Aerindel]

TRUE.........But I must plan for something........I have been very luck, only one small bear bite and one long "Quasi-mauling" with no injury. My time for continuing this lifestyle is very short. I'll need to move soon. There is also the possibility that a mauling would not be very horrific. Some people only get bitten a few times.......my neighbor got mauled to death and eaten. If you play this game you take the results your dealt.

Thanks for carefully thinking about this. Wish I had been this awake 52 years ago.

Thats why I'm saying to pack some antibiotics. A small mauling that doesn't cause too serious of injury, could still cause an infection bad enough to kill you in a wilderness setting.

Just for instance. My wife and I used to have pet rats. When trying to introduce two new males to each other they got into a fight, my wife tried to break it up and got bit. Bite, once, by a two pound animal and from a pet store.

By the next day her hand was so swollen and painful she couldn't use it at all. Yeah, bad luck but infections from any animal bite are common.

She ended up requiring antibiotic injections and pills for a week and missed that week of work because her right hand was almost totally disabled.

It is very likely that a bear attack will not be catastrophic, most aren't. But even getting one bite could cause a bad infection if not treated for a few days.

Anti-biotics are currently cheap, light and easy to get. If I was making any plan to self treat an animal bite I would include antibiotics. Keflex and Amoxicillin at least. For less that $50 you should be able to get a bottle of both. "Cheap Insurance" as they say.

 

[Bacpacker]

ONE LAST QUESTION..........I promise. (And many thanks for all the help in this thread).

So......requesting help with five or six most important things to have in a kit for having been chewed on by lion/tiger/bear.

This would "not" be a general first aid kit. I have five tourniquets (good ones) but doubt it is prudent to carry more the one. But knowing me I'll jam two in there. I have Quick Clot Sponge and Quick Clot Powder and later this week should have five miles of Quick Clot Gauze.

I likely have the other things you will suggest......But this thread has caused me to shift my thinking a massive amount. And accept that the outcome will be much bleaker then I have been pretending.

Very-very low probability of any help with-in many hours or more realistically days or weeks. I have also grossly over estimated my ability to realistically administer first aid, to "self" in a wilderness trauma event.

So.......just the very top most important things to have, considering it will be self administered, under sucky conditions. If we get more then a "football" size package, I know it will be not carried, there is just too much other stuff needed in the pack. Big think you for all the help.

I keep 2 TQs in my chain saw bag. My other packs I just keep one. Medical bags in the vehicles have 2

 

[Sourdough]

If I was making any plan to self treat an animal bite I would include antibiotics. Keflex and Amoxicillin at least. For less that $50 you should be able to get a bottle of both. "Cheap Insurance" as they say.

Thanks..........I have both of those, and will add them to the kit. A fellow guide lost three and half fingers to septic from skinning bears. I have twice been in the hospital and waiting to have my leg removed for blood poisoning, the second time they were prepping me, and stopped.

I have been very sloppy, I have the antibiotics, but just keep them at the cabin. I feel like a fool that I never prioritized keeping them in my backpack first aid kit.

 

[Hardcalibres]

For someone on their own, three TQs is the most you could use - since you need one good arm/hand to apply them.

In the military, double amp trauma was not particularly uncommon. Land mines often take out both legs. With the advent of body armor (and IEDs), triple and even quad amp injuries are not unheard of - both obviously out of the realm of self treatment.

Agreed on the importance of antibiotics - if you are going to be doing self treatment.

My small IFAK has just trauma shears, a Quik clot and gauze (as well as a few bandaids, triple antibiotic and burn cream sachets).

My medium IFAK has those things plus 2 x Hyfin vent chest seals, Celox syringe, aspirin, ibuprofen, medical tape, 2 x Israeli bandages, crepe self adhesive elastic bandage, cyalume stick, gloves, scalpel blades, Dermabond capsule, steri strips, antibiotics.

 

[Alaskajohn]

For someone on their own, three TQs is the most you could use - since you need one good arm/hand to apply them.

In the military, double amp trauma was not particularly uncommon. Land mines often take out both legs. With the advent of body armor (and IEDs), triple and even quad amp injuries are not unheard of - both obviously out of the realm of self treatment.

Agreed on the importance of antibiotics - if you are going to be doing self treatment.

My small IFAK has just trauma shears, a Quik clot and gauze (as well as a few bandaids, triple antibiotic and burn cream sachets).

My medium IFAK has those things plus 2 x Hyfin vent chest seals, Celox syringe, aspirin, ibuprofen, medical tape, 2 x Israeli bandages, crepe self adhesive elastic bandage, cyalume stick, gloves, scalpel blades, Dermabond capsule, steri strips, antibiotics.

Good list! Its been about 17 years since my last CPR class/certification and EMT level trauma course courtesy of the AMEDD. I would be well served by refresher course, but I can no longer use AMEDD resources as a retiree. I am sure there are good online resources as well as some bad ones.

Are these the chest seals you use? In the military the term army medics were taught was "sucking chest wound." Sucks in more than one way. Looking at the instructions on the label they are leaving some important aspects out such as checking for exit wounds, how to position the patient after application, among others.

North American Rescue Hyfin Vent Chest Seal, 2 Count

 

[Sourdough]

I Have:

Doxycycline Mono 100MG CAP
CIPROFLOXACIN 500MG
CEPHALEXIN MONO 500MG
AMOXICILLIN TRIHYDRATE 500MG

Which should be added to the "Bear Bite Bag" (Here-in after referred to as the BB'bag)

 

[Hardcalibres]

Good list! Its been about 17 years since my last CPR class/certification and EMT level trauma course courtesy of the AMEDD. I would be well served by refresher course, but I can no longer use AMEDD resources as a retiree. I am sure there are good online resources as well as some bad ones.

Are these the chest seals you use? In the military the term army medics were taught was "sucking chest wound." Sucks in more than one way. Looking at the instructions on the label they are leaving some important aspects out such as checking for exit wounds, how to position the patient after application, among others.

North American Rescue Hyfin Vent Chest Seal, 2 Count

Yes - they are the chest seals I carry.

The vents help in two ways: They help stop the lung from collapsing and they help draining blood out. As you would have been trained - angle the patient so the shot lung is on the low side (to keep blood out of the good lung).

 

[Hardcalibres]

I Have:

Doxycycline Mono 100MG CAP
CIPROFLOXACIN 500MG
CEPHALEXIN MONO 500MG
AMOXICILLIN TRIHYDRATE 500MG

Which should be added to the "Bear Bite Bag" (Here-in after referred to as the BB'bag)

Agree with Aerindel that I would carry Cephalexin (trade name Keflex) (which is good for penetrating wounds that carry bacteria from the skin into the flesh) and Amoxicillin which is good broad spectrum that compliments Keflex quite well.

Your collection is quite good.

I would add Metronidazole which is good (combined with Amoxicillin) for the treatment of dental infections.

Azithromycin is quite modern and claimed to be antibiotic and (some claim mild) antiviral in one drug.

Plain old penicillin can also be a quite effective broad spectrum antibiotic - especially out in the bush, far from bacteria that have started to develop resistance.

If you get badly hurt and experience a long recovery, then having multiple choices allows you (to rotate and) to maximize effectiveness.

 

[SheepDog]

The most important item to have when you are involved in an animal attack is a friend with a gun he handles well.
If a bear ever attacks me I will sit quietly with the unfortunate animal until it dies of food poisoning.

 

[Sourdough]

How does this product compare to Quik Clot...........
CHITO-SAM 100 - 3" X 6' Z FOLD HEMOSTATIC DRESSING
Amazon.com: CHITO-SAM 100 - 3" X 6' Z FOLD HEMOSTATIC DRESSING: Health & Personal Care

Do I buy some of this or buy more quick clot gauze.....and is their a realistic application for a six foot length of this vs. two foot.

 

[Hardcalibres]

How does this product compare to Quik Clot...........
CHITO-SAM 100 - 3" X 6' Z FOLD HEMOSTATIC DRESSING
Amazon.com: CHITO-SAM 100 - 3" X 6' Z FOLD HEMOSTATIC DRESSING: Health & Personal Care

Do I buy some of this or buy more quick clot gauze.....and is their a realistic application for a six foot length of this vs. two foot.

I don't have direct experience with Chito-Sam.

Historically SAM Medical have mostly been known for their SAM moldable splints - that are used by a lot of military and EMT groups.

Chitosan is the active ingredient (and apparently makes up the entire dressing).

Here is some discussion about Chitosan:

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-625/chitosan
In answer to whether you would ever need to use 6' of a hemostatic dressing - yes you could need that much for a large open wound. A penetrating wound like a bullet entry (or a fang puncture from a bear) is unlikely to utilize that much dressing effectively - but too much beats too little anyday.

 

[Sourdough]

Well.........that article did not "Sell" me. So I'll order a four foot long by 3" Quick Clot "GAUZE". That will give me a 4' and two 24" hunks, for eight feet total. Thanks for the quick reply.

 

[winds-of-change]

Once you open a package of quick clot gauze, can you safely store the rest for future use if you don’t use it all?

 

[Sourdough]

Once you open a package of quick clot gauze, can you safely store the rest for future use if you don’t use it all?

Well.........the one thing I am 100% sure of is that if I need to open a package, the conditions will be so disgustingly filthy, might as well use it all up.

 

[winds-of-change]

But someone mentioned just using a bit of it on a cut finger.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Once you open a package of quick clot gauze, can you safely store the rest for future use if you don’t use it all?

Obviously it wont be sterile anymore........

If I didn't care about that, then my next priority would be keeping the "left over" very, very dry.

These hemostatic agents partly work by gobbling up the water out of the blood they get exposed to - when they do, the concentration of the platelets are pushed up to a concentration that clots much more readily and robustly.

So if I were storing left overs, I would package them in a small mylar bag with a desiccant and heat seal it shut.

Quik Clot has always been packaged in bags that look like foil laminated mylar - so that is a big hint on what they consider a suitable package.

 

[Sourdough]

This has turned into a pretty good thread. I have other related things to throw out, so I'll do it here rather then a new thread. First I'll disclose, I am nowhere near the knowledge level of others posting in this thread. One thing we have not touched on, is the importance of keeping the injured "warm", especially if help is unknown time in the future. I have about five of these from my wilderness guiding days. They are strictly for true emergency use. If you buy one of the "smaller" versions, try getting into it dressed at home. We have worked with the company to get them to keep making them bigger and bigger. They have been helpful in doing that. This is the largest they offer, and having two, so you can put one inside the other would be warmer, there is not any true insulation, but they are compact and for survival.
Amazon.com : S.O.L. Survive Outdoors Longer S.O.L. 90% Reflective 2-Person XL Emergency Bivvy : Emergency Camping Blankets : Sports & Outdoors

 

[Hardcalibres]

We were issued with these:

https://www.narescue.com/all-produc...ermia-prevention-and-management-kit-hpmk.html
They go beyond just reflecting the heat from the patient/occupant back at them. They include a thermal output layer that makes the bag into a giant handwarmer that delivers heat for ten hours.

You can get them on EBAY as a milsurp item at or near their rated use by date:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/402804120337?hash=item5dc8ff1b11:g:m3gAAOSw3K1ggNH0
They also came as part of this kit:

https://www.narescue.com/warrior-aid-and-litter-kit-walk.html
I have one of those kits (but the hypothermia bag is out of date so probably won't self heat anymore).

You can get a WALK on ebay a lot cheaper than new too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392999199486?hash=item5b8093e2fe:g:iLUAAOSwTw5bkCcx

 

[winds-of-change]

Obviously it wont be sterile anymore........

If I didn't care about that, then my next priority would be keeping the "left over" very, very dry.

These hemostatic agents partly work by gobbling up the water out of the blood they get exposed to - when they do, the concentration of the platelets are pushed up to a concentration that clots much more readily and robustly.

So if I were storing left overs, I would package them in a small mylar bag with a desiccant and heat seal it shut.

Quik Clot has always been packaged in bags that look like foil laminated mylar - so that is a big hint on what they consider a suitable package.

In the case of a massive wound needing quick clot, sterility is the least of your problems. The hospital would always assume, rightfully, the wound is not sterile. But I get your point to only use them in true emergencies.
I suppose you can vacuum seal any unused left overs if only using a bit. But thinking about it, I probably would never use just a bit.

 

[winds-of-change]

Why does it say this on my Quick Clot gauze? I thought it was for trauma.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Why does it say this on my Quick Clot gauze? I thought it was for trauma.

The front of the Combat gauze says "For Temporary External Use To Control Traumatic Bleeding"

Since the "superficial wounds" text is only on the civilian packages, it is probably on advice from their lawyers.

 

[Sourdough]

Kit is now re-built and upgraded. The last of the supplies arrived today, and have been integrated. I am happy with the result. Was able to keep it small and light weight. Not great for a multi-victim event, but it was designed for one person bear mauling. Effort was made to modify things in the kit, with the assumption that it could be totally dark, and I would be administering trauma care to myself, and assumed that one hand was compromised for function.

Just ordered this: Cyalume - 9-00724 SnapLight White Glow Sticks – 6 Inch Industrial Grade, High Intensity Light Sticks with 8 Hour Duration (Pack of 20): Amazon.com: Home Improvement

 

[Sourdough]

NOTE: we are having roughly one bear attack per week.......another last night.

Department of Public Safety (alaska.gov)