Shed recommendations for submersible pump & water well

[PopPopT]

I didn't quite get just how big of a thing you were looking to build. Either large or small, if you can lay some block, it's one of the more inexpensive ways to build something these days. Lumber is just stupid expensive. Trees coming out of the woods here don't bring a lot but lumber is like gold.

Insulation isn't that difficult either, especially if it's a really small building. Small enough and a light bulb really will keep it warm in there. Just gotta make sure that light bulb isn't burned out when you need it most.

Even with a larger building, though, it's amazing how warm some of 'em will stay. I keep the cats' food and water in my garage. Nothing fancy at all. It's an ol' pig pen with "home poured concrete floors", covered nicely with a garage door and a people door and a little cheap siding. No heat. We've had nights in the single digits here this winter and the water bowl never froze at all.

Good luck with your project!

 

[zannej]

I need to get the shed measurements again. I want to keep the shed the same width but extend it back a few feet more.

It doesn't need to stay super warm or cold so I'm thinking some Reflectix would work for the insulation.

 

[hashbrown]

I absolutely despise a well house! I have two on our place currently, they are always a pain. Every well that I have put in for others in the last few years I've bought a precast concrete pit for the pressure tank and the well controls. It has a liftoff galvanized lid. No maintenance no worries of critters or freezing and they are only $600. One of my wellhouses is in crappy condition and it will be replaced with a pit this summer.

 

[zannej]

I prefer having a covered insulated structure. We had a really nice wooden one for a long time but the tenants destroyed it (I believe they ran into it with our tractor-- which they weren't supposed to be using).

The wooden one dampened the sound from the double pulley wheel pump. This is what it sounds like (it's not shown in the video but you can hear it)

 

[zannej]

I went and got more recent pics of the setup. Looks like the wire nut on the ground wire for the wheeled pump fell off.

That PVC pipe lying around is just some extra pipe. I really should store it somewhere else.
Current setup. Heater in the back corner no longer works. We don't have working outlets for lights, heaters, or fans anymore. Need to check the wiring and figure out why, but Dad derped and did not use GFCI outlets.

The capped PEX line is for a possible future line- plus we couldn't find an elbow and only had a tee left.

The jet pump is a Goulds J10S 1HP. These are the specs:

The other pump looks like this (well, the motor-- part on the left-- has been replaced with a blue one of the same size and specs):

Specs of that pump:

Things I want to add:
Conduit
20A or 15A GFCI outlet (for lights, fans, heater)
Weatherproof junction box
Pull-Out Disconnect
Possibly a small solar powered light for when power is out
Possibly a small solar powered fan (if such a thing exists) to circulate air & try to cool things off a little when it gets hot
Flex seal on the roof

I wonder if this nonfusable disconnect would work. The options I seem to see are 30A and 60A and the 60A one is the cheapest. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Halex-60-Amp-Non-Fusible-Metallic-AC-Disconnect-HNF60R/205785642
or https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-60-Amp-240-Volt-Non-Fuse-Metallic-AC-Disconnect-TFN60RCP/100674085

Eventually I would still like to build a larger shed, but for now I want to make use of the one we have and clean it up.

If/when I do build a new shed I want to have two entry points. One where the existing door is and one on the north side so people can enter without tripping over the pipes for the wheeled pump.

 

[zannej]

So, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do the outlet pipes on my jet pump. I've read that a check valve on the outlet side can help but I'm seeing different opinions. Some say it should be on inlet side but others say that causes the pump to run louder and heat up. So there is debate on that. Some say it is bad if it is put between the jet pump and the pressure tank but others say it should be there to prevent backflow into the pump. I've read that too many of them can lead to flow restriction.

Now, I know that my cistern is supposed to have a foot valve. I bought one and tried to get the repair guy to install it but he didn't (communication breakdown). He put a check valve on the inlet side that is really ugly looking now. In order to install a foot valve, someone would have to climb inside the cistern while someone else on the outside held something in so it could be installed. I'm waay too fat to fit in that cistern and I don't even know how to lift lid high enough anyway. Don't know how the dude did it the one time he got in there to fix something.

I already bought and received the 1" check valve for the outlet side of the pump so I want to use it.

I've read that you need at least 10" of metal pipe before connecting to plastic on a jet pump to reduce vibration damage. So, I'm trying to figure out the best layout.

OPTION 1 (two SS pipes connected with a coupling before a street elbow with the SS pump rated check valve)

OPTION 2 (one of the 4" pipes coming up to a 90 then having another 4" piece with the check valve attached to that one)

OPTION 3 (4" pipe coming up to street elbow with check valve connected and other 4" pipe after that followed by a coupling before it goes to PEX)

Just for fun I took edited the background out of a photo of the hot mess coming out of the cistern. No room to splice anything in here. The pipe going upward is a bit taller than sketched. But there are existing elbows in those spots. It's ugly.

Anyway, back to the inlet side of the pump. This was my idea.

The pdf for my jet pump shows a shutoff between the cistern and inlet. it does show a check valve on the inlet side, but I think that check valve is probably toast.
My whole collage with option 2 shown.

And no, I'm not going to buy a CSV for this.
Things not included in the sketch are some sort of lighting, a heat source during winter, a fan for cooling the shed during summer, and an antifatigue mat under the pump. Plus cinderblocks and paving stones.

 

[joel]

I am looking at running 2" & 1 1/2" Black poly six hundred feet, with a 1 1/2" raiser every hundred feet, total of seven raisers.
I only need two right now, but I want to do all the under ground work at one time. Seems to be a high cost, until you price a new well with six in. casing. Up to $12,000.00.

 

[zannej]

I had to make modifications due to space constraints and being an idiot that got the wrong fittings. Didn't realize the 1" sharkbites I got only worked on PEX so could not bridge to PVC. I did have the right ones to bridge from pex to pvc in 3/4. So I used a reducer. used 1-1/4" rigid conduit elbow to bend the 3/4" pex (I got it in white instead of blue or red). It was a bear getting the pipe to come out the other side of the conduit but once it did, it moved much more smoothly and was much easier for my friend to bend in place.
This is the view from outside the shed:

I cleaned off the cistern lid. The blue corrugated stuff behind the bucket is the main line into the shed. It goes into a weatherproof junction box inside the cinderblock and comes out as the weatherproof flexible conduit that you can see scraps of in the bucket. Sadly, that flexible stainless steel hose thing didn't work-- leaked like crazy. The shed itself is obviously rusting badly.
When we replaced the old bad liquid level float switch we couldn't find the same type and the old one had a piece welded on to it to extend the tongue. The new one could not mount directly to the top of the PVC and if it had, it would not be able to reach the hole. The well repair guy initially glued the wooden block down to the lid of the cistern and screwed the switch to it, but the block wouldn't stay still. It kept moving and the lever kept jamming and the cistern overflowed multiple times. I intend to add couplings and run conduit all the way down to the float switch and use some threaded adapters to go from the 3/4" to 1/2" that will fit in the holes on the switch. For the elbow coming out of the outlet box, I will run more conduit with 12/2wg outdoor rated cable to have a 15A GFI outlet. There will be an in-use weather cover over the outlet as an extra precaution. The white cord from the LED strip light will be plugged in to it.

I managed to patch the hole in the ceiling right above the switch with some Flex Shot spray.

Finally ended up moving the block to the pipe, notching the front of the block to allow the rod to move unobstructed. I wish I had something to keep it more straight up and down though. It still sticks sometimes. Really want to replace that with a different type of sensor at some point in the future. I'm hoping that I can find something that can run off of the same breaker as the actual belt-driven pump that fills the cistern. That thing runs on 230V so I need something compatible.

View to the left when stepping in to the pump house: I'm pleased with how the conduit looks and am glad we found something sturdy to go through the holes that were drilled in the I-beam. We ran out of cable and I've decided that the last run that is missing (on the left) will be the 12/2 since it only needs to power a couple of outlets. I have since closed the sub panel.

The walls are rusting away so I'm going to have to hit them with Rustoleum temporarily but I'd like to eventually build a wooden shed around the metal one and then remove parts of the metal one that are not needed. I want a larger shed with storage for plumbing supplies, insulation, and doors that aren't broken off.

You can see a little of the new pipe (the vertical loop is the new 3/4" PEX) and you can see the pipes for the belt driven pump.

Cable going from the float switch to the belt-driven pump and the coupling that will connect conduit for the GFI outlets. White pipe is just spare pipe that I need to store better.

Upper view from north side of the shed: the ugly tangle of useless cables is gone.

Here's where it gets ugly. LOL. Got the

The 90s probably don't help the water pressure any. Comes out of the tee to the right, goes up and around and down to the PVC tee that was there from a previous fix. I wanted to add a shutoff to just the house water but the kind I had would not fit. If there are problems in the future I can probably add one in to a vertical run of the pipe going down into the dirt.

 

[zannej]

I think I can only post 10pics per pst.
Here's the ugly mess of couplings and adapters coming out of the cistern and some trash.

Junction box that needs to be tucked back in to the cinderblock- although, the cable inside is rated for direct ground burial. As an aside, I like my handy jar opener for opening primer and pvc cement containers.

And here's a marked up photo with descriptions:

If anyone has suggestions on options to replace the stupid liquid level switch, please let me know. Last time I looked it up I knew it involved relays and all kinds of other crap.

 

[zoomzoom]

In this image, where the electric wiring goes down to the switch on the tank, you really should have a drip loop. See image below.
The way you have it now, any water or condensation that comes down those wires will go straight into the electric box.

 

[zannej]

In this image, where the electric wiring goes down to the switch on the tank, you really should have a drip loop. See image below.
The way you have it now, any water or condensation that comes down those wires will go straight into the electric box.

View attachment 154103


View attachment 154102

Thank you! That is not the permanent setup for the wiring-- we ran out of conduit. The drip loop thing is a good idea. Will have to do that on the other switch and on the pump once I add in a junction box.

Right now I'm not happy with that liquid level switch on top of the cistern because it keeps jamming. Plumbing forum people suggested changing it to a float switch but I need one that can handle the 230v. I did find one-- it says 1/2hp or 13A. At 230v the pump's max draw is 6.1A. So I'm thinking of getting this float switch: https://www.amazon.com/Float-Switch-Septic-System-Sump/dp/B0064BHEVM/
It has some kind of Honeywell brand mechanism inside of it and is rated for potable water and up to 250v (and I mentioned the 13A). If I go with that, I would eliminate the switch sitting on top of the tank. The cable would go through the hole that the rod currently goes through. Only problem is I can't figure out how to wire it and need additional devices to make it work since it's over 220v. I read something about it needing a contactor and I've been trying to find the right ones. Had my friend start looking and he found this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3KO7SY

But I don't know how it would be wired (sure my friend can find out), if it needs additional devices, and if it will fit in a 1 gang weatherproof junction box. Maybe 2 gang might fit. I want to be able to mount the box up on the beam near where the conduit ends. That conduit would go in to the box and I'd have more conduit coming out - one to go to the pump and another to the float switch. I could rig another hook to support the cable going in to the hole if need be.

The videos I watched showed a contactor device and some sort of MC board or something. I'm not sure. I got confused and overwhelmed.

So, has anyone set up a float switch type thing with a 230v pump on a cistern before?

This is an image of the float switch I'm thinking of getting

This is the power relay my friend suggested:

 

[12icemaker]

Man I have a concrete block well house on a slab covered tiled well a 1/2" steel cover plate.

That is always the way we go, it is secure and with some bolts to hold the roof plates and concrete poured in the blocks it is almost bullet proof and does not cost a lot more than the wood if you do a dry pour and lay the blocks. A regular 750/1500 milk house heater will keep them warm in zero temps and not run much at all.
Good luck with it whatever you use!!

 

[zannej]

I actually considered using cinderblocks and rebar filled with spray foam or concrete-- although the spray foam would be expensive. I would probably have to use rebar to keep them straight. I even considered insulated concrete forms but that would also require rebar and concrete and stuff. I know how to work with wood.

Still trying to figure out this float switch thing though.
This is a video for the relay thing my friend linked to me.

 

[Magpie]

My tuppence worth!
Wood is better; plastic in heat and cold won't last. Also chances are you'd have to replace the whole lot; or a side, whereas wood might only require a piece.
My pump was in the back of my cement block garage when I moved here, which also had a stable on the back. We built an internal section around it, so there is a counter on top, access doors and insulated with sheets of Kingspan. My pump might be a bit different to yours- it looks like a compressor.
I've never had a issue, the coldest we have got was -15 a few years back (5f).
It might not be something you need, but if I was going to the trouble of building it, I would think about 'doubling' up a little. For instance, I'd probably build on a small greenhouse using old windows!

 

[zannej]

Thanks!
The original shed was made of wood but it fell apart when the deadbeat tenants were living here. Part of the lease agreement was that they were responsible for maintenance and repairs or would allow us to send people out. We notified them we were going to send someone out to check on things and fix anything necessary but when he got there, they threatened to shoot him if he didn't leave. They were not even paying rent and had not been for years at that point. They didn't want him to see the illegal activities they were up to. So, the wooden shed (which had been there for a very long time-- since before we bought the house) ended up collapsing. They had messed around with the plumbing in there a lot and there were some leaks.

The float I linked has some reviews indicating that it might only be 220v and 12A, but I'm wondering if a relay could make it so that doesn't matter. At 230v it would only use 6.1A according to the motor.

I'm also trying to make sure the float is fully ok for potable water. Some indications were that the weight was not for potable water.

 

[12icemaker]

You can build a mechanical toilet valve to control water level easier than an electrical system and it will be more reliable. The thing is to use a spill over can to hold the valve that goes into the cistern.

I was looking at the compressor and wondering how it is used, to pressurize the well or to add water pressure to the supply lines.

As for the disconnect I would use one of these

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-Amp-120-240-Volt-Fused-AC-Disconnect-TF30RCP/100576894

for the extra$ so you could separate the lines and keep one side up if you needed.

 

[zannej]

You can build a mechanical toilet valve to control water level easier than an electrical system and it will be more reliable. The thing is to use a spill over can to hold the valve that goes into the cistern.

I was looking at the compressor and wondering how it is used, to pressurize the well or to add water pressure to the supply lines.

As for the disconnect I would use one of these

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-30-Amp-120-240-Volt-Fused-AC-Disconnect-TF30RCP/100576894

for the extra$ so you could separate the lines and keep one side up if you needed.

I abandoned the idea of a disconnect and went with a sub panel. Each pump has its own breaker. The one for the jet pump is off right now because it stopped pumping. Stupid liquid level thing jammed again and didn't fill the cistern so I woke up to find the water off and jet pump was not trying to run. I think the switch burned up.

Right now I'm looking at a relay called GRL8. There are two versions-- 01 and 02. 01 can only do 2 stage (uses 3 sensors) and 01 can do either 1 stage (two sensors) or 2 stage. Not sure which one would be needed. Seller said it does hot and neutral, not two hots, and can only use up to 12AWG and that I'd need a contactor in addition to it. Still not sure what sort of contactor or how to get that to work. Trying to get info on how to wire it.

 

[12icemaker]

It definitely looks like you need to simplify the whole system when you build the new well house.

I would go to an Ag store and get some valving for waste and chemical tank setups, a few low voltage and mostly mechanical.

It will simplify the system and let you use a battery backup for your system easily.

As for the relay setup I would get an 8"x6' thick wall pvc pipe dig a post hole and set it to a depth that would end below the top of the well house, drill through it with mounting bolts and build a treated cross braced panel for the breaker panel and the relay and valve control panels pour it full of concrete and cap it.

I closed the well house at the farm , a tree fell on it and I have not been able to get in it for a while.

Looks like it survived with only one or two blocks damaged but the roof is gone for sure.

I am going to have to clear the top of the other one too, it is hand dug and I know some of the tiles have shifted in it and are leaking from ground water.

I will need to do something it is tiled all the way down about 80 feet.

I was hoping to fix it but it is pretty bad and the only way I could see would be to put a floor in it and pour a concrete liner about 10 feet around a pvc casing then fill it in.

There is no way anyone would go down in that mess to try to work it as is and I have no idea how you could seal it for good.

Right now I am just trying to keep wandering people especially kids from falling in them I have 200 pound rocks piled on one and layers of dog wire around the well house.

 

[Magus]

My opinion, a 6'X8' block house with a solar panel big enough to run a small heater in the winter.

 

[zannej]

I'll have to look in to how to build the block house thing. I love the idea of solar panels powering a heater. Would also want it to power fans in the summer.

I wonder if a block house can be built with closed cell spray foam instead of concrete inside of cinderblocks with rebar. Would take a hell of a lot of spray foam though. If I did do the cinderblocks thing, I'd build it around the current structure and make it taller, cut out the back wall of the shed (the one closer to the pump) to extend the shed out more, and add a roof over it. I might keep some of the metal shed and tether it to the new structure. But right now I need to get the water working again.

 

[Magus]

You could just buy a shipping pod and cover it inside with foam.

 

[zannej]

You could just buy a shipping pod and cover it inside with foam.

I'd have to get that delivered I think and then I'd have to set it in place. And I'd have to contend with the lean-to covering between the two sheds.

Right now i'm trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with the pump or pressure switch that is making the pressure switch make as much noise as it is.

 

[12icemaker]

Do a video and upload it with sound via media link.

 

[zannej]

Do a video and upload it with sound via media link.

It turns out it was because we had a check valve between the pressure tank and the pump and the pressure switch was kept on the pump instead of moved to the tank tee. If it had been on the tank tee, it might have worked, but it would have required more wires and capping the hose on the pump somehow.

The check valve on the inlet side had gone bad and I was a derp and thought it wouldn't cause problems to put one on outlet side to keep stuff from blowing back into the pump. But the pump wouldn't work without a check valve on the inlet side. It kept losing pressure and the water went back into the cistern.

Two times one of the fittings blew apart and water sprayed everywhere. The first time it happened the cap was off the pressure switch and it got drenched. I said something to the repair guy about it but he didn't think it was a big deal. The power was off so I tried to dry it off with a shop towel but it didn't do a good enough job. Despite my repeated questions about whether or not it was safe to turn power back on while the switch was wet, the guy decided to turn it on. Sparks flew and burned the contacts on the switch. They had another switch to put on but they did charge me for it. I decided not to argue since the problem with the plumbing was my fault in the first place and I didn't want to discourage them from coming back if there was a problem in the future.

The pressure tank's pressure was also out-of-whack for some reason. I'd set it to 28psi (as per mfr instructions) but it was up to 35psi and they had to let some air out. At least the faucet I added to the tank tee came in handy. They had to use it several times to purge air from the line and make sure water was coming through. The sub-panel with breakers was immensely helpful. In the past I would have to stand inside the back door near the breaker box and listen for someone in the shed to shout to me to turn it on and off. They were able to turn it on and off from sub panels without problems.

I may need a new liquid level switch because it has lost sensitivity and won't close the contacts when it should-- but that's over $60 and I'd really love to set up something different or at least find a way to make the rod for the float go straight instead of being able to move at an angle.

They took out some of the stainless steel and put a female threaded pvc fitting on a male threaded fitting-- which I will likely have to change out when it starts to leak. I do have parts to use instead though.

I was able to take a nice hot shower after the water heated up enough. Need to catch up on some cleaning, laundry, and paint the door in my bathroom.