Somebody calls a neighborhood meeting, and declaring himself the chairman...

[Neb]

That is 12 people that will not be tending gardens preparing food and other required tasks to be able to live after the long term storage runs out. So a thriving group will maybe 36 people considering some will be young to allow the species to survive.

To be continued...

Ben

As to timing...

If SHTF at the start of winter it could be almost a year until the fall harvest comes in. That means 36 person-years of food preps.

We could ride it out watching people starve to death or add to the wall of corpses outside.

Or...

We could coopt neighbors willing to work in exchange for food. Once they eat from your preps they have a vested interest in contributing to their own survival.

So building a strong and productive community using some of our preps as a down payment is worth considering.

Ben

 

[Camalot]

As to timing...

If SHTF at the start of winter it could be almost a year until the fall harvest comes in. That means 36 person-years of food preps.

We could ride it out watching people starve to death or add to the wall of corpses outside.

Or...

We could coopt neighbors willing to work in exchange for food. Once they eat from your preps they have a vested interest in contributing to their own survival.

So building a strong and productive community using some of our preps as a down payment is worth considering.

Ben

Serious question. Do you honestly think you can tell the community how much or a "part" of your preps they can have? Especially once they have gotten that taste of your preps? You think you can turn that off? I don't see that being a reality and you have let them dangerously close. If you put yourself in that leader position you now have a target on your back. If you're all equals your preps are their preps now too.

 

[Neb]

Serious question. Do you honestly think you can tell the community how much or a "part" of your preps they can have? Especially once they have gotten that taste of your preps? You think you can turn that off? I don't see that being a reality and you have let them dangerously close. If you put yourself in that leader position you now have a target on your back. If you're all equals your preps are their preps now too.

It is not my decision alone. The family will rely on God's guidance if and when the time comes.

If you have ideas how to keep others from noticing you are not starving, I am all ears.

Ben

 

[Camalot]

It is not my decision alone. The family will rely on God's guidance if and when the time comes.

If you have ideas how to keep others from noticing you are not starving, I am all ears.

Ben

They can notice or not notice I'm not responsible for their non preparing. If people can't figure this out after this past year we don't need their intellect going into the future. I own them nothing. But, you're right. There is no simple solution. All my preps wouldn't feed the community 3 days max. As I stated, I have what I have by much sacrifice. No one has helped me do anything not have they been paying my bills. This is not something I concluded without a lot of soul searching but I can watch their children die of starvation because of their own stupidity and non caring. Too many people think the government is capable or actually cares about taking care of them. I actually intend to drop to 2 meals a day also and trim some of this extra weight off also. Just a thought.

 

[Neb]

They can notice or not notice I'm not responsible for their non preparing. If people can't figure this out after this past year we don't need their intellect going into the future. I own them nothing. But, you're right. There is no simple solution. All my preps wouldn't feed the community 3 days max. As I stated, I have what I have by much sacrifice. No one has helped me do anything not have they been paying my bills. This is not something I concluded without a lot of soul searching but I can watch their children die of starvation because of their own stupidity and non caring. Too many people think the government is capable or actually cares about taking care of them. I actually intend to drop to 2 meals a day also and trim some of this extra weight off also. Just a thought.

Agreed.

Jesus once said "the poor will always be with us" not to give us license to ignore those in need but to show there will always be those in need.

Elsewhere the Bible tells us "Those that do not work do not eat."

If someone comes to us willing to earn their keep I should be willing to pay them. No freeloading but real productive work.

Ben

 

[Hardcalibres]

An important fact that has not been mentioned in this thread is how to guard our preps against a mob eventually figures out someone isn't loosing any weight.

As shown in the documentary The Shelter"



A mob will turn on you if they know you have what they need.

Sure you can kill some to make it clear that you aren't going to let them steal it. You could ignore the rotting bodies stand as a warning but eventually they find you asleep and overwhelm you. Nobody can stand watch 24x7. Unless you have tower that will let guard the front and the back of your house there will have to be at least guards 24x7. To prevent one of the guards from being picked off there has to be a way of coordinating the front and rear so security coordinator is called for.

So let's say that 3 people 24x7 is what is required to keep the mob at bay. But the guards have to sleep sometime.

So to fill one guard position standing an 8 hour shift we need at least 3 people. In order for the guards to remain sane they will need a day off so add a fourth person so they can have one day off once every 3 day.

We are up to 12 security people at this point...

Continued in next post

BEN

If you want to try to live among starving/potentially hostile people, then here is some of the technical stuff:

The four stages of perimeter security are:

1) Deter
2) Detect
3) Delay
4) Respond

While your personnel numbers are right for modestly well prepared defense against capable attackers, you can stack the odds further in your favor and that can allow you to operate "short handed".

Good deterrence can avoid trouble by making an assault look like certain death.

Use of automated/passive detection systems (including some available electronics like battery powered, wireless PIR sensors), can reduce your reliance upon having "eyes on". This can also reduce fatigue among duty sentries.

Really good physical barriers (like walls, wire and pits) can provide long enough delay of attackers for off-duty personnel to "stand to" in time to respond to a threat.

If your response is sufficiently effective (and merciless), then that can bring you back to stage 1 and act as a deterrent.

Rinse and repeat.......

But as I posted on page 2, most people are not cut out to watch the slow painful death of, let alone mercilessly kill their neighbors.

That is why anyone who decides to prepare for very severe crises needs to have a well planned and resourced bug out/INCH (I'm Never Coming Home) capability.

Many people with somewhat self sufficient homesteads (and a good sized stockpile of stored food) believe that makes them able to handle a crisis where most others are starving - but the real challenge is how to avoid violent death while your grown/stored food is keeping you from starving (like everyone else).

 

[hiwall]

You need force multipliers for the end times. What those are is up to you.

Also, we all have friendly neighbors right now but that could change during a prolonged event. Be careful who you trust.

 

[Hardcalibres]

For handling mild crises, I support cooperating with your neighbors and community.

But for severe crises, the only people you should cooperate with are those in your well selected group.

One of the problems/challenges with the above is that some crises start out as mild and then degenerate into more severe crises (sometimes through cascading failure of community systems). Be aware of this and exercise caution when deciding how severe a crisis is and how to treat it. Stay gray man and ready to slide away if the crisis looks to be getting much worse.

Group members should exclusively be family or very long term trusted friends that you really can rely upon in any circumstances. They need to be people who you know will be worth sharing all you have with in any circumstances. They need to be people you can rely upon to defend your back (and do any/all that takes) in the same way you would cover them. They need to be the sort of people you would run back into gunfire to drag to safety. They need to be people who you can rely upon to produce more than they consume. They need to be the person you would share your last can of beans with.

In other words, they are a tiny minority of the people you will be acquainted with during your whole life.

Some people will not know anyone who is suitable to be in a group with them. For those people they are better to go it alone, than to get into a group with people who cannot be trusted or are incompatible.

Since the people who end up being your neighbors are the result of virtually random selection, it is extremely unlikely that any of your neighbors or nearby community will be suitable as group members.

 

[Hardcalibres]

..........

We could coopt neighbors willing to work in exchange for food. Once they eat from your preps they have a vested interest in contributing to their own survival.

So building a strong and productive community using some of our preps as a down payment is worth considering.

Ben

In practice, many of the individuals you make the "work for food" offer to will be resentful (and have the same view as the "chairman" in the OP has). They may think you should share your food regardless of whether they work for it. In our modern society, people like that are quite common. When people (and their kids) are starving, the ranks of the freeloaders will be swelled like never before.

It may be hard to pick those people from people who are willing to work for the good of the community.

Letting resentful people near you when the ROL is gone is quite risky.

 

[Aerindel]

There is an alternative.

IF you prepare so deeply that you can provide food, shelter and energy for your entire community throughout the duration of the dying time you could perhaps hold together a group that way.

This is VERY different from resource sharing. You are not sharing your resources. You are employing your community into your corporation and paying them with your preps.

This will last only as long as your supplies last and your ability to justify yourself as the leader.

Do not attempt unless you are the richest, smartest and most ruthless person in your community.

 

[Aerindel]

Seriously though, I imagine most attempts at community meetings would basically go like this:

 

[Amish Heart]

They should of brought a shrubbery. Or at least pitched a cow.

 

[Neb]

There is an alternative.

IF you prepare so deeply that you can provide food, shelter and energy for your entire community throughout the duration of the dying time you could perhaps hold together a group that way.

This is VERY different from resource sharing. You are not sharing your resources. You are employing your community into your corporation and paying them with your preps.

This will last only as long as your supplies last and your ability to justify yourself as the leader.

Do not attempt unless you are the richest, smartest and most ruthless person in your community.

If we find ourselves in a true TEOTWAKI situation we have to act boldly and achieve what we may. The goal is to thrive not just survive.

Plato wrote that the only person qualified to lead is one that is smart enough to know that they don't want to lead.

I see my"tribe" more as facilitators or bankers willing to bank role a reboot. Not that I am wealthy mind you. God gave me everything I have and I feel it is for a reason. Not that I know now.

Maybe that may suugest a more productive way to answer the question of this thread...

How do we best thrive TEOTWAWKI?

Ben

 

[Neb]

They should of brought a shrubbery. Or at least pitched a cow.

@ThePrincess has oft imitated the cow launched by the Frenchman.

Ben

 

[Camalot]

Agreed.

Jesus once said "the poor will always be with us" not to give us license to ignore those in need but to show there will always be those in need.

Elsewhere the Bible tells us "Those that do not work do not eat."

If someone comes to us willing to earn their keep I should be willing to pay them. No freeloading but real productive work.

Ben

While I don't disagree with you I don't think in a real SHTF with no rule of law simply being kind to a mob, and they will become a mob if they are hungry, is not going to be very affective. Just my opinion.

 

[Aerindel]

How do we best thrive TEOTWAWKI?

Ben

That part is pretty straightforward. You rebuild civilization, better than it was before. We have thousands of years of history to use for inspiration on how that is done.

But you don't get a seat at the table unless you get through the dying time.

There is no way around it, most of the population will die before rebuilding is even a possibility. The only moral way to behave during this time is to remove yourself and those you can care for from the general population during this period. You can do this by surviving away from them, or by dying.

The amoral way is to start reducing the population yourself.

Thriving comes after the population has fallen to or below the threshold of the land to support them.

The really bad part is that most people have no ability to remove themselves from the population, and no desire to simply die and so will be forced to become short lived predators.

 

[Neb]

While I don't disagree with you I don't think in a real SHTF with no rule of law simply being kind to a mob, and they will become a mob if they are hungry, is not going to be very affective. Just my opinion.

The cold heartless side of me points out there is a limit to how long a sarving marauding mob is effective. With time their strength diminishes as well as their reach.

Furthermore

The stomach can be a powerful motivator.

Given a choice between mortal conflict and cooperation to acquire food, I hope that most will choose the later. The others will grow a mohawk and gather feathers to adorn their atire.

In short..

I see your survival and raise your a thriving community.

Ben

 

[Neb]

That part is pretty straightforward. You rebuild civilization, better than it was before. We have thousands of years of history to use for inspiration on how that is done.

But you don't get a seat at the table unless you get through the dying time.

There is no way around it, most of the population will die before rebuilding is even a possibility. The only moral way to behave during this time is to remove yourself and those you can care for from the general population during this period. You can do this by surviving away from them, or by dying.

The amoral way is to start reducing the population yourself.

Thriving comes after the population has fallen to or below the threshold of the land to support them.

The really bad part is that most people have no ability to remove themselves from the population, and no desire to simply die and so will be forced to become short lived predators.

I agree with most of what you wrote.

You are wise for your apparent years.

I ask that you reconsider your evaluation of your fellow. They want to survive as well but just don't know how to do it. Don't hide your light under a basket.

Ben

 

[Camalot]

The cold heartless side of me points out there is a limit to how long a sarving marauding mob is effective. With time their strength diminishes as well as their reach.

Furthermore

The stomach can be a powerful motivator.

Given a choice between mortal conflict and cooperation to acquire food, I hope that most will choose the later. The others will grow a mohawk and gather feathers to adorn their atire.

In short..

I see your survival and raise your a thriving community.

Ben

Well back to my original statement. I don't have enough to feed the community ever for a very few days. My point is just as valid as the mobs. We'll have to see what's left over after the event to see who we have for a community. But initially, I'm keeping mine.

 

[Neb]

Well back to my original statement. I don't have enough to feed the community ever for a very few days. My point is just as valid as the mobs. We'll have to see what's left over after the event to see who we have for a community. But initially, I'm keeping mine.

Fair enough. You should do what you can with what you can.

Ben

 

[Aerindel]

I agree with most of what you wrote.

You are wise for your apparent years.

I ask that you reconsider your evaluation of your fellow. They want to survive as well but just don't know how to do it. Don't hide your light under a basket.

Ben

I'm over 40 so not exactly too young to have some wisdom.

By far, the most common reaction when I try to tell people how to survive is "I wouldn't want to live if that happened so there is no point in preparing for it"

Sadly, I think almost all of them are lying to themselves. Working as an EMT, I've never seen anyone in real danger who wanted to die, they have always begged to be saved. The only people I've seen who have told me to just let them die, have been the ones in no danger of death.

Most of the attempts I've made to educate people have resulted in hostility, and outright censorship. I've been threatened, doxxed, and finally, banned from other survival forums.

I have a seemingly rare viewpoint when it comes to survival discussions. I've often heard people complain when someone tells them "Doing that will just get you killed", while for my part, those are the people who I pay the most attention to, and something I am likely to say myself to others.

But most people on forums seem to look for validation of what they are already doing rather than criticism and advice on what they should be doing.

And to be fair, I have no way to prove I am doing it right. I can't even prove that to myself.

Which is a major problem in any kind of community building pre-SHTF. You will have more opinions on how to do something than you will people.

Now, on the other side of the dying time, that is when I will be more interested in forming groups as everyone who makes it through, will be proven, and committed.

 

[hiwall]

In the last 20 years or more most people have not worked. Oh, many have had jobs but there was no physical labor involved in those jobs. Nothing bad about that, it is just the nature of jobs now and those jobs needed people to "work" them. All that is fine and we can move forward as a nation.
But if a long term TEOTWAWKI comes along everything changes. Everyone then has to work very hard to survive in that kind of a situation. Also it will soon become apparent to all that if they want to survive they will have to work very hard every day until the day they die.
How many people will accept that reality?
How many will fight to avoid that reality?
How many will just commit suicide?
It will be the dying time and it will last for well over a year and I could see it lasting a couple years.

 

[The Lazy L]

O.K. Lazy L. You have piqued my curiosity. How did our answers compare to those on the other forum? Are we all like-minded or were there some large differences? Just curious.

I'll give my thoughts before posted the Author's solution.

When I read the scenario proposed my first thought was to leave the meeting. But then that would give the self appointed Chairman (and his minnions) an excuse to rally the sheeple to inventory my house first.

My second thought was to stay and debate the self appointed Chairman. But you can't debate with someone who has ulterior motives. By attempting to debate or reason I'd put a target on my back. Wack the Mole would be the Chairman's response and I'd be the mole.

So I believed the proposed situation was a Kobayashi Maru scenario.

Then I read the Author's solution. Brilliant !

Author's solution

I (Author) said I would shoot him in the face, and then tell the stunned neighbors that it was idiots like that that had got us into this problem.

 

[CalicoKatie]

In such a situation as we're talking about here, the first thing most of us would do is go on tight rationing and we're going to be losing weight like everybody else. If you have anything that would draw attention get rid of it or find a way to disguise it. Hungry people don't have the strength to keep a nicely manicured lawn so let the weeds grow and scatter your vegetable plants around. The pillow you sleep on at night can just as easily be a bag of beans or flour. If there's a breadline, take your place and stand there as long as you have to. If your first move is to set up guards and bring out your guns, some folks might get curious about what you're protecting. Seems like looking weak might serve you better in the long run. Just my two cents.

 

[Morgan101]

In such a situation as we're talking about here, the first thing most of us would do is go on tight rationing and we're going to be losing weight like everybody else. If you have anything that would draw attention get rid of it or find a way to disguise it. Hungry people don't have the strength to keep a nicely manicured lawn so let the weeds grow and scatter your vegetable plants around. The pillow you sleep on at night can just as easily be a bag of beans or flour. If there's a breadline, take your place and stand there as long as you have to. If your first move is to set up guards and bring out your guns, some folks might get curious about what you're protecting. Seems like looking weak might serve you better in the long run. Just my two cents.

That would be the Gray Man concept, which I agree is sound advice. Blend in with everybody else. You can plan for the confrontation, but you don't have to act until someone tries to get into your house.

 

[elkhound]

90 to 180 days will put most of population in troubles...starvation..period...read minnesota starvation experiment and look at the 70some folks on alone show and the weight loss they all had. a person 100# overweight will blow that off in approx 90 days.


as far as other...history shows only tribes survived...groups of people..very few lone wolf lived in history for long.most in history lived in safety on edge of societies...they were basically left alone to live out their life.tribe of levi was left alone by egyptians when the other 11 tribes fell for the con of come on and work for us.levities told others dont fall for it its a trap and it was.but even levities being small in number were still a tribe of people...broadbrush painting i am talking.

tribes will be formed on some type of bond..be it belief,ethnics,geographic etc. history shows that. also history shows populations are always under some type authority..be it a govt,war lord.elder council etc. people have to face those facts...bible even tells about organization of populaces being captains of 10's,100's and 1000's.

EDIT TO ADD...the bible thing of captains was not to be bosses but to settle disputes between folks.they lived under Yahs commands,word,rules etc. refered to as Torah.Moses couldnt do it all so other appointed to do so for average daily stuff and worked its way up to him. sorta like our judges here in u.s.also it was organization for war.

stand back and let it fly...theres a few communities who will stick together..especially ones working daily now but they are far and few between. most are under 150 population...refered to as dunbars number...the more i look at it the more i believe in the dunbar number !

listen real close to video below.

 

[elkhound]

 

[hiwall]

When people start starving with no end in sight then every business of any kind will be broken into in the hopes of getting something that would be edible or have some value that could hopefully be traded for very valuable food.
Every car and truck would be searched. Every single house would be searched for food. If homeowners were there they would be attacked.
I don't see how any gray man approach would work. Even houses with the doors standing open would be searched again and again by different people.
When you are starving and have no hope then you have nothing to lose.

 

[Morgan101]

I don't see how any gray man approach would work.

You are the gray man until that point. You don't stick out. You bring no attention to yourself. As far as anyone knows you are all in the same plight. When WROL comes, all bets are off. You protect yourself and your family. Even then nobody has to know what your have.

 

[The Lazy L]

That would be the Gray Man concept, which I agree is sound advice. Blend in with everybody else. You can plan for the confrontation, but you don't have to act until someone tries to get into your house.

General Mattis describe it very well (IMHO), "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."