Today's legal pot up to 33 times as potent as the stuff we had as teenagers!!

[Kevin L]

Thank you, Urban.

My only point is that everyone talks about cost, money, and taxpayer expense...but I sometimes wonder if anyone can see that I am too.

A desperate drug addict, for example, will hold up a business and--for the sake of argument--he kills a bunch of people and we later--finding him guilty--sentence him to death.

My point is that this (hypothetical) robbery is the end result of an accumulation of smaller offenses that became more and more serious over time...until the catastrophic end point was reached.

If help was furnished to this drug addict earlier in the process, then maybe we don't end up at the stage where we have a catastrophic crime that costs hundreds of thousands (if not millions) in court costs, manpower, business losses...and all of this is before we tally in the loss of human life (which I refuse to assign a dollar value to because I find this idea spiritually offensive).

Surely it's cheaper to everyone (taxpayers included) if we intervene earlier in the process. This doesn't mean that I advocate being an enabler, as I mentioned earlier that enabling actually causes drug addiction to get worse.

In my mind, you are an enabler if you help your alcoholic friend by giving him rent money because he got drunk last night and robbed while passed out in an alley. You are helping your friend if you're giving him a ride to an A.A. meeting because he lost his license and can't drive.

There is a difference between these two poles, and I wish people could see that I am--in a way--still concerned with taxpayer and government expense.

 

[tmttactical]

@Kevin L I do agree that early intervention by authorities is cheaper and may even be a better alternative but the person (drug or alcoholic) has to take responsibility. Step brother died an alcoholic. Many tried to help (not enable) but the end result was the same because that person did not have the ability to stay sober. Rehab, jail time, family intervention nothing was as important as the booze. I do put dollar values on human life. The dollar cost to support a loser vs. using the same dollar to support a child or a vet or senior or a person who is actually disabled and not able to work. Tax dollars are not an unlimited supply. They come out of somebodies pocket, who does not get the final say in how it is spent.

Kevin, when do you say enough and this person is too big a financial burden? If you want to personally pay for or donate to a rehab for an addict, that is great, but why should I be forced to support them? See that is the real problem, your spirituality is good for you but I don't believe it has any business being involved in government spending. I want the government to get the heck out of the charity business and focus on just the business of governing. There will always be poor people and addicts but we cannot fix the problem. The people with the problem must do the fixing. The tools are there but we cannot force folks to use them. They choose the path, I did not force it upon them. They and they alone are responsible for the outcome.

 

[Kevin L]

No, we can't force people to get sober.

I should have clarified (and did not, I'll admit) what I meant by assigning a dollar value to human life.

I meant to say that if we figure the dollar loss in the robbery crime that I used as an example...that it's wrong to assume that a little kid who is killed costs society 10 million dollars, while an old lady killed in the same robbery is only worth 5 thousand dollars.

It is entirely appropriate and neccesary (as often happens in triage during a crisis like a mass casualty incident from, say, a terrorist bombing) to parcel out available resources in a carefully allotted way to do the most good for the largest number of people.

As for all the push-back I sometimes get for my liberal ideas about helping (not enabling) the poor, I can demonstrate my points with recent examples from real life.

In Africa, the Middle East, and certian parts of Asia, there was a human parasite called the Guinea Worm (I don't know the Latin binomial name off the top of my head), and it affected something like 3.6 million people worldwide.

This worm isn't usually fatal, but without going into disgusting details...anyone infected with this parasite can't work.

The area where this thing was endemic was exremely poverty stricken. Note also that there is no known medication that cures this parasite.

The Carter Foundation began a campagne 30 years ago to eradicate this parasite, and today only 25 people are infected. Not 25,000 or 2,500. 25 people.

The only thing that the foundation had to do was work to educate people and change their behavior. Instead of bathing a guinea worm lesion in the lake, put your foot in a bucket and empty the water on the ground instead of in a water source. There were also a few other minor details.

Now, here's my point: many of these areas are no longer poverty stricken! People work, they have businesses, there are tourists, and things looked up because a barrier to prosperity was removed, and--lo and behold--these countries as a whole benefitted...and benefitted financially.

All because of a few changes in behavior that eradicated a human parasite that was holding people back

I don't ask anyone to take my word for it. These details are freely available to anyone who wants to look on the Internet.

If it was done right, dealing with addiction and alcoholism makes good financial sense if it's done correctly.

Not with the government as an enabler.

P.S. Not to shoot down my own points, but I forgot a specific detail, which I must bring up in the spirit of honesty. This parasite may have adapted to dogs, but the dog form of this parasite is rare and doesn't seem contagious to people so far. One should, though, at least consider the idea that it may come back in the future.

 

[tmttactical]

@Kevin L Very good points but a little bit of apples to oranges. What would be your take be if after all the information was shared and made available and these same people continued to do the same things that got them infected. In one case the cost was worth the expenditure because it greatly reduced the problem. In the addiction and repeat criminal cases, the cost does not reduce the problem, just allows it to continue. One is a solution, the other example is a feel good moment, at tax payer expense. Kevin, you are a good person and your heart is in the right place but you can't fix people, they have to fix themselves. All I am saying, get the government out of the charity business and then the individuals can decide whom and what deserves their money. Your Carter Foundation is a good example of folks donating to a cause of their own choice and it did good. The government is just enslaving generations of people and allowing those not willing to fix their own problems to keep draining tax payer funds.

 

[Kevin L]

@Kevin L Very good points but a little bit of apples to oranges. What would be your take be if after all the information was shared and made available and these same people continued to do the same things that got them infected. In one case the cost was worth the expenditure because it greatly reduced the problem. In the addiction and repeat criminal cases, the cost does not reduce the problem, just allows it to continue. One is a solution, the other example is a feel good moment, at tax payer expense. Kevin, you are a good person and your heart is in the right place but you can't fix people, they have to fix themselves. All I am saying, get the government out of the charity business and then the individuals can decide whom and what deserves their money. Your Carter Foundation is a good example of folks donating to a cause of their own choice and it did good. The government is just enslaving generations of people and allowing those not willing to fix their own problems to keep draining tax payer funds.

Yes, much of that is true...because our government enables people.

I've seen drug addicts sell food stamps (sometimes for ten cents on the dollar) to buy another crack rock that might keep them high for maybe 20 minutes.

I've seen 3rd generation welfare families that have almost made a career and--if I can dignify it by calling it such--a discipline of gaming the system for a free ride when people who work their ***** off as a matter of pride barely have anything.

The system is broken. I was the "boots on the ground" as a medic, and I'll shout from the fifty yard line of the Superbowl that things need to change and that a working person's resentment toward any system abuser is perfectly valid. I feel this resentment myself.

Yet I see--on this forum, although not neccesarily from you, Urban--a lot of references about the U.S. being a Christian nation with Christian values, and this is why gay marriage is wrong, why we should consider banning religions like Islam, and so on.

Fine.

The only catch is that generosity (not enabling) is a fundemental part of Christianity, and we can't selectively pick and choose which parts of Christianity we like or don't like if we base our laws and government on these principles.

I've set aside extra resources in my prepping stuff to quietly and subtly give food to people post SHTF. I won't be a martyr who'll starve myself and my family to death giving out all my food. I won't advertise to the whole world that I'm a free grocery store.

I will try, however, to follow my moral compass and help as much as I realistically can.

As another example from real life, an unwillingness to share with others was a recurring theme during the Holocaust, and selfishness was--in the long term, but, I'll concede, not in the short term--a losing proposition for all concerned.

Another interesting point is made by the 'Prisoner's Dilemma' problem in game theory.

Without going into detail, it can be worked out mathematically that generosity (again, not enabling) creates more than it consumes on a long term basis (although not always in the short term).

I sometimes wonder if Jesus intuitively understood mathematics, and perhaps derived some of his ideas from the family carpentry business.

 

[tmttactical]

@Kevin L As I stated you are a good man and I applaud your beliefs. I do not object to Muslims because we are a Christian nation, I object because their religion says they need to kill or convert me. Neither events are going to happen if I can help it. I do think people who profess to be Christian should follow their doctrines. Since the government professes to NOT follow any religion, then it needs to get out of the charity business. I am willing to bet a ton of non practicing Christians will sudden find the Lord, once their welfare is cut off. I have already expressed my lack of sympathy for addicts, so there is not need to continue in that direction. I do think we can agree there is a definite need to drastically reform of government handouts. I am also sure there is some middle ground on welfare but just like gun control, the second you give an inch, they will want more. With the government, if it exists, it needs to be expanded.

 

[Kevin L]

Maybe we won't always see eye to eye, but yes...the system is broken. The biggest, unsolvable problem with welfare that I have hasn't even been brought up.

If an honest, competent politician (I know this is an oxymoron, but let's pretend that such a thing exists just for the sake of discussion) ran on welfare reform with a good plan on getting people to work...the welfare masses would vote against him or her.

As their numbers swell, any leader with an eye toward addressing the situation would never get elected.

I really despise Trump and believe that he's done a lot of damage and is bad for the country, but I must admit that the job situation has improved by leaps and bounds since he took office.

Basically, anyone now who wants a job can get one that offers competitive pay.

Yet I still see tons of welfare people sitting at home, doing drugs, drinking, and having babies, and this situation really does disgust me.

And just to show you I'm honest, I recently took a new job with good pay and benefits that wouldn't have been available to me before Trump took office, so even though I really despise the man and a lot of what he's done...I sure pocketed the extra money quick enough.

 

[tmttactical]

@Kevin L A man with a good heart and honest to boot. Great combination. You are absolutely correct, until we can get full control, welfare reform is doomed. As much as you despise President Trump, I like him. He is uncouth and brash but very smart and finds ways to get his opposition stumbling around. The economy is booming and he will bring back manufacturing, once the rhinos, get out of his way. It is real tough to fight the opposing party and your own political party too. Rhino's and Liberals are a major problem for America. Good debate Kevin, well presented by both sides, in a professional manner. Thank you for your point of view.

 

[brandx]

I think you're correct most of the time, but I believe (and I have very liberal values for this forum, and I believe in drug treatment over incarceration) that people can become physically dependant after one episode of narcotic use.

To prove my point, consider the recovered alcoholic. If an alcoholic is sober for 20 years and has one drink, it's only a short amount of time (sometimes a few days) until he is just as bad off with booze as he was when he quit drinking 20 years before.

There are some people who are instant alcoholics on their very first drink, and I think that this is sometimes because mom drank while pregnant, the fetus became an alcoholic, and the alcoholism is activated when this person takes a first drink at their 21st birthday party.

I believe (I stress that this is a belief, not what I know) that it might be the same if mom uses mild opiates even a few times when she's pregnant...and even if we don't have a sickly heroin baby, I believe that the addiction gets triggered when such a person uses...even if it's only one time.

I'm not saying that this always happens, but I believe it does happen once in a while.

If true then all the more reason to follow Nancy Reagan's advice.

 

[brandx]

@Kevin L As I stated you are a good man and I applaud your beliefs. I do not object to Muslims because we are a Christian nation, I object because their religion says they need to kill or convert me. Neither events are going to happen if I can help it. I do think people who profess to be Christian should follow their doctrines. Since the government professes to NOT follow any religion, then it needs to get out of the charity business. I am willing to bet a ton of non practicing Christians will sudden find the Lord, once their welfare is cut off. I have already expressed my lack of sympathy for addicts, so there is not need to continue in that direction. I do think we can agree there is a definite need to drastically reform of government handouts. I am also sure there is some middle ground on welfare but just like gun control, the second you give an inch, they will want more. With the government, if it exists, it needs to be expanded.

People who don't work suck the life out of the nation. Not talking about real needy people, just users. I for one am sick of paying their way in life. I am not so sure we are a Christian nation anymore, one of the reasons in my book that the country is falling apart.

 

[Kevin L]

@Kevin L A man with a good heart and honest to boot. Great combination. You are absolutely correct, until we can get full control, welfare reform is doomed. As much as you despise President Trump, I like him. He is uncouth and brash but very smart and finds ways to get his opposition stumbling around. The economy is booming and he will bring back manufacturing, once the rhinos, get out of his way. It is real tough to fight the opposing party and your own political party too. Rhino's and Liberals are a major problem for America. Good debate Kevin, well presented by both sides, in a professional manner. Thank you for your point of view.

Same here

 

[Gazrok]

I do not object to Muslims because we are a Christian nation, I object because their religion says they need to kill or convert me. Neither events are going to happen if I can help it.

I don't object to Muslims, I object to opening the floodgates to migrants. We've already seen the problems this has caused in Europe. (even THEY now see it, and have slammed those floodgates SHUT...but the damage is already there).

And this is coming from a guy who LIVED in the Middle East for a few years. I've known many Muslims, and most are the nicest folks you'll ever meet, but these are not the same folks as the migrants flooding Europe.

Here's an excellent summation of the problem..

A Female Physician in Munich, Germany sends a message to the world . . .



"Yesterday, at the hospital we had a meeting about how the situation here and at the other Munich hospitals is unsustainable. Clinics cannot handle emergencies, so they are starting to send everything to the hospitals.

Many Muslims are refusing treatment by female staff and, we, women, are refusing to go among those animals, especially from Africa. Relations between the staff and migrants are going from bad to worse. Since last weekend, migrants going to the hospitals must be accompanied by police with K-9 units.

Many migrants have AIDS, syphilis, open TB and many exotic diseases that we, in Europe, do not know how to treat them. If they receive a prescription in the pharmacy, they learn they have to pay cash. This leads to unbelievable outbursts, especially when it is about drugs for the children. They abandon the children with pharmacy staff with the words: “So, cure them here yourselves!” So the police are not just guarding the clinics and hospitals, but also large pharmacies.

Truly we said openly: Where are all those who had welcomed in front of TV cameras, with signs at train stations?! Yes, for now, the border has been closed, but a million of them are already here and we will definitely not be able to get rid of them.

Until now, the number of unemployed in Germany was 2.2 million. Now it will be at least 3.5 million. Most of these people are completely unemployable. A bare minimum of them have any education. What is more, their women usually do not work at all. I estimate that one in ten is pregnant. Hundreds of thousands of them have brought along infants and little kids under six, many emaciated and neglected. If this continues and German re-opens its borders, I’m going home to the Czech Republic. Nobody can keep me here in this situation, not even double the salary than at home. I went to Germany, not to Africa or the Middle East.

Even the professor who heads our department told us how sad it makes him to see the cleaning woman, who for 800 Euros cleans every day for years, and then meets @young men in the hallways who just wait with their hand outstretched, want everything for free, and when they don’t get it they throw a fit.

I really don’t need this! But I’m afraid that if I return, that at some point it will be the same in the Czech Republic. If the Germans, with their nature cannot handle this, there in Czechia it would be total chaos. Nobody who has not come in contact with them has no idea what kind of animals they are, especially the ones from Africa, and how Muslims act superior to our staff, regarding their religious accommodation.

For now, the local hospital staff has not come down with the diseases they brought here, but, with so many hundreds of patients every day – this is just a question of time.

In a hospital near the Rhine, migrants attacked the staff with knives after they had handed over an 8-month-old on the brink of death, which they had dragged across half of Europe for three months. The child died in two days, despite having received top care at one of the best pediatric clinics in Germany. The physician had to undergo surgery and two nurses are laid up in the ICU. Nobody has been punished.

The local press is forbidden to write about it, so we know about it through email. What would have happened to a German if he had stabbed a doctor and nurses with a knife? Or if he had flung his own syphilis-infected urine into a nurse’s face and so threatened her with infection? At a minimum he’d go straight to jail and later to court. With these people – so far, nothing has happened.

And so I ask, where are all those greeters and receivers from the train stations? Sitting pretty at home, enjoying their non-profits and looking forward to more trains and their next batch of cash from acting like greeters at the stations. If it were up to me I would round up all these greeters and bring them here first to our hospital’s emergency ward, as attendants. Then, into one building with the migrants so they can look after them there themselves, without armed police, without police dogs who today are in every hospital here in Bavaria, and without medical help"

 

[Kevin L]

I don't object to Muslims, I object to opening the floodgates to migrants. We've already seen the problems this has caused in Europe. (even THEY now see it, and have slammed those floodgates SHUT...but the damage is already there).

And this is coming from a guy who LIVED in the Middle East for a few years. I've known many Muslims, and most are the nicest folks you'll ever meet, but these are not the same folks as the migrants flooding Europe.

Here's an excellent summation of the problem..

As someone who works in the medical field, I agree with a lot of what the physician is saying.

Overall, I believe that some immigration is good for the country...but there's a difference between an intelligent immigration policy and opening up the country's borders to a massive flood of millions of refugees that strip resources like a plague of locusts.

I think intelligent immigration can be a good thing. It was immigrant refugees fleeing Hitler (Einstein, Edward Teller, and so on) that gave us the atom bomb, and kept it out of Nazi hands. I like the idea that there are multicultural areas in my own country that I can visit.

I had to learn Spanish when I worked in Miami (and resented it a little), but it gave me better job prospects being bilingual.

On the other hand, there is no excuse, no justification, and no defensible way to argue that any of the criminal behavior exhibited by the scumbags in the doctor's complaints is, in any way, acceptable.

I have the expectation of any immigrant that they should follow the laws of the land that they move to. An immigrant gets to bring their culture to a country...not their laws.

If Sharia law is so important to them that they won't get treated by a female doctor (I have actually seen this any number of times in several different contexts), then go back where you came from.

 

[brandx]

A lot of OD's on The Green in New Haven from K2, I guess it is a hotspot for the homeless and drug addicts. this also happened in July but not as severe. Will they never learn?