You have 12 hours notice

[Aerindel]

I realize I'm new to the site but I thought I would bring this up. Infantry is taught to NEVER enter a building if there being attacked. Entering a building, or staying in a building narrows or eliminates your tactical options. It does seriously increase the tactical options of your enemy.

Unless you know MOUT warfare, have 100's of sandbags and a group trained to defend your location. You may be better off keeping your options open.

Dale

I believe you, but I don't understand it. It seems being out in the open has to always be a bad place to be under attack. I suspect there must be something about this that I am completely missing but I can't imagine ever wanting to be under attack out in the open. This would seem to give you the least possible options. In fact it seems the only option is to hope you are a better shot than your attackers as in the open you won't have any force multipliers.

 

[Tacitus]

Top off my gas if the pumps are still working.

Good one. I will do that tomorrow. Fill up my gas cans...I've been meaning to do that anyway.

In addition to the idea of dropping some trees...

The wife thought of getting a chainsaw today. Probably a good idea. But, I've got family with that stuff.

 

[Hardcalibres]

I believe you, but I don't understand it. It seems being out in the open has to always be a bad place to be under attack. I suspect there must be something about this that I am completely missing but I can't imagine ever wanting to be under attack out in the open. This would seem to give you the least possible options. In fact it seems the only option is to hope you are a better shot than your attackers as in the open you won't have any force multipliers.

Yep. The bit missing is whether you are under attack from a modern, well trained military force with weapons like RPGs, mortars, artillery, close air support that will turn even a well hardened domestic structure into a smoldering ruin very quickly.

But since your tower is meant to protect you and your family from armed refugees with only small arms (and most likely suboptimal training/tactics), then it will work at least as well as any other hardened domestic structure that I can think of.

Having said that, you should consider some sort of escape tunnel that would get you and the family out of there if things go badly South......but I would not expect you to post about that on a forum.

 

[UrbanHunter]

So, are we talking about Wednesday? Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

 

[Amish Heart]

For a few armed intruders, I'd want to be inside a place I know, like my own home. I know the nooks and cranies of it, and would stay put and let them come to me.

 

[Hardcalibres]

For a few armed intruders, I'd want to be inside a place I know, like my own home. I know the nooks and cranies of it, and would stay put and let them come to me.

For those that live on a rural property with substantial surrounding acreage, the best defence involves a combination of a hardened dwelling with aggressive patrolling around the rest of your property.

Denying the enemy free operation in your territory is an important part of a layered defence.

 

[randyt]

does anyone rely at least partially on cameras for observation? they have really come down in price

 

[Aerindel]

Having said that, you should consider some sort of escape tunnel that would get you and the family out of there if things go badly South......but I would not expect you to post about that on a forum.

What you says makes sense. If your attackers have something to take down a building, a building makes a much bigger target than a man does.

Its worth mentioning.....I do have a 'beta site' that while not nearly as nice as my house...is the 'hundreds of sandbags solution'

does anyone rely at least partially on cameras for observation? they have really come down in price

Absolutely, in fact I'm taking a break at this very moment from installing another one.

 

[Amish Heart]

Yes! I love cameras. A front door camera alerted us to an attempted home invasion in New Mexico last year.

 

[angie_nrs]

So, are we talking about Wednesday? Sorry, I just couldn't help myself.

That was the thought that inspired this thread.....yes. But it goes beyond that too.....

Any situation that you get an emergency alert for shoud trigger some sort of response, no? What about a notice of an EMP or a storm that is sure to take out power or civil unrest? or....etc. etc.

Even in the winter we have a fairly stocked camper with clothes and amenities. I even leave the bed made thru the winter with dryer sheets scattered thru the camper to deter critters. Thankfully we don't have an issue with critters where our camper is stored, but those little buggers can put a crimp on any well thought out plan. If (God forbid) our house ever burnt down, we have a camper to retreat to that is not connected to our home. It has clothes, bed, dishes, and basic things we would need immediately. It would not be ideal, but it would get us by. We have everything in there (to a lesser degree) that we have in our home, except food that could freeze and internet.

I was looking more for a list of things to do or stock if you had notice. Here's a part of my 12 hour notice list assuming power would go out. We have back up generators, but in an EMP situation, who knows if they would work? So, here's the start of my list.....not necessarily in order.

*put gallon water jugs in freezer (if room allows) if it's not winter outdoors
*do all the laundry
*do all the dishes (load the dishwasher and start the load)
*fill gas tanks in vehicles and any other empty gas cans
*unplug everything and turn off breakers if there might be an EMP or grid down situation prior to event (if known)
*call immediate family and have them fill their vehicles with fuel and fill up their cars with food & essentials and head over
*pull batteries out of vehicles and put them in basement
*fill empty tubs with water
*buy propane tanks in town if able to do so
*get guns out of the safe and place them in strategic places with applicable ammo
*recharge cell phones and/or any low batteries
*make sure fire extinguishers are ready to go
*go to local grocery with list of last items to get only if it's safe to do so

I guess I was thinking a grid down situation where you might be in the dark for an undetermined amount of time.....

 

[Hardcalibres]

does anyone rely at least partially on cameras for observation? they have really come down in price

A system of remote sensors including cameras, PIRs (Passive Infra Red sensors), drones, binos and spotting scopes is a very important capability.

If possible, set all those resources up so they can go with you if you need to leave.

 

[Sourdough]

the best defense involves a combination of a hardened dwelling with aggressive patrolling around the rest of your property.

Denying the enemy free operation in your territory is an important part of a layered defense.

This is what bothers me.........no one ever talks about this. What we hear over and over is "I have guns and ammo to defend my home" and fully expect to win 164 gunfights in a row, day after day, and never get even the slightest wound.

People expect a fair fight, with fair warning. To me one of the single biggest flaws I see over and over on forums, is the assumption they will win repeated gunfights, with not a scratch.

Just look at how many "Millions" are currently attempting to escape Paris, France. Those people are going someplace, and I doubt the people where they are going are prepared for 43,000 new residents.

 

[Hardcalibres]

That was the thought that inspired this thread.....yes. But it goes beyond that too.....

Any situation that you get an emergency alert for shoud trigger some sort of response, no? What about a notice of an EMP or a storm that is sure to take out power or civil unrest? or....etc. etc.

Even in the winter we have a fairly stocked camper with clothes and amenities. I even leave the bed made thru the winter with dryer sheets scattered thru the camper to deter critters. Thankfully we don't have an issue with critters where our camper is stored, but those little buggers can put a crimp on any well thought out plan. If (God forbid) our house ever burnt down, we have a camper to retreat to that is not connected to our home. It has clothes, bed, dishes, and basic things we would need immediately. It would not be ideal, but it would get us by. We have everything in there (to a lesser degree) that we have in our home, except food that could freeze and internet.

I was looking more for a list of things to do or stock if you had notice. Here's a part of my 12 hour notice list assuming power would go out. We have back up generators, but in an EMP situation, who knows if they would work? So, here's the start of my list.....not necessarily in order.

*put gallon water jugs in freezer (if room allows) if it's not winter outdoors
*do all the laundry
*do all the dishes (load the dishwasher and start the load)
*fill gas tanks in vehicles and any other empty gas cans
*unplug everything and turn off breakers if there might be an EMP or grid down situation prior to event (if known)
*call immediate family and have them fill their vehicles with fuel and fill up their cars with food & essentials and head over
*pull batteries out of vehicles and put them in basement
*fill empty tubs with water
*buy propane tanks in town if able to do so
*get guns out of the safe and place them in strategic places with applicable ammo
*recharge cell phones and/or any low batteries
*make sure fire extinguishers are ready to go
*go to local grocery with list of last items to get only if it's safe to do so

I guess I was thinking a grid down situation where you might be in the dark for an undetermined amount of time.....

Regarding the parts of your list that require shopping for important supplies - how would you know it is safe to do so?

In a rapidly unfolding/devolving crisis, there are likely to be several factors that would make that very difficult to answer:
1) Information networks would be strained/unreliable/non-existent
2) The situation in general would be changing very rapidly - over a time scale shorter than that of your last minute shopping
3) The local situation at the site you choose to do that shopping could change very rapidly - like if panic breaks out, stocks run out or even if something like the card/electronic payment system suddenly fails (which it is very likely to do at some point).
4) Not everyone who needs supplies will "have extra cash to buy more right now" - what will those people do at the same stores you plan to do your last shopping trip.

The old saying goes: when the first store front window breaks - it's a riot.....

So in a rapidly developing (severe) crisis, you may not be able to practically know it is (or will be) safe.

One other thing to consider is this - the COVID-19 crisis has been relatively mild compared to many of the crises that dedicated preppers prepare for - and yet even when this unfolded as slowly as it has, there was still panic buying and stock outs. Imagine what would happen if, what was spread out over a few months was instead applied to a few hours (or less).

It can be argued that prepping is fundamentally about being well ahead of the overwhelming majority of people - in adopting the survival mindset, getting somewhere remote, getting skills needed to survive, getting equipment/supplies, getting independent energy, water, food, finance, security, medical, communications, transport, etc established.

 

[Amish Heart]

The last thing I'd want to do is go to a store. I tell our kids and grandkids to stay out of stores during an emergency. Just come home. We're good.

 

[Tacitus]

What about a notice of an EMP...

I always figured I would have no warning for an EMP; it would just happen. 12 hours of warning is a major advantage. I will be able to do a lot of things, as many people will have no idea what is going on.

1. My previous EMP plan was to first gather family, but the kids are older now, and they will be able to get home on their own. I will call the kids and parents and in-laws, and tell them to execute on my step 2 while I do the same....
2. Address water needs. I already have food stores, so I won't waste time supplementing those. But, I don't have running water on my property, so that is our biggest weakness in an EMP scenario. I assume that water will not run from the faucets when the EMP hits, and running clean water may not return for months, possibly a year or more.
   • Go to the grocery store right away. I would fill up a cart with water, gatorade, juices, canned goods...anything wet without too much salt. If the EMP hasn't hit, I will get load after load after load of water-inclusive products until the EMP hits. When the normal water-inclusive products are taken, I might even start buying cheap beer and wine...it will all taste glorious in an EMP event.
   • Fill up the WaterBOB bath tub water bag in our only bathtub. Fill up as many containers in the house with water as I can. 5 gallon buckets. Even the trashcans.
   • Blow up the temporary pool I bought at Walmart and stored away. Fill it up with water. (I might even set it up in the basement instead of outside.)
   • Maybe a trip to the hardware store to see if they have any rain collection supplies and water transport supplies (e.g., trash cans on wheels). I have some stuff like that already, though, so I will do a lot of the above first.
3. Wrap up select electronics in a towel and then with aluminum foil. Radios, mostly. Cell phones probably are not worth trying to save. I already have some radios wrapped up in mutliple layers of insulator/foil/inculator/metal box.
4. Fuel:
   • Get more propane. I already decided propane was going to be my primary fuel of choice during an EMP.
   • Some gas for a chain saw will be necessary for building up a wood supply for winter.

Of course, having made this list, it would be prudent to do some of this now. And, I have done a little. I have some water stores (but you can never have enough if you don't have a supply). I have some fuel I need. I should probably buy some ham radios; they will be very valuable.

 

[angie_nrs]

Regarding the parts of your list that require shopping for important supplies - how would you know it is safe to do so?

It can be argued that prepping is fundamentally about being well ahead of the overwhelming majority of people

Thankfully I live in a rather small community. However, I realize things could change very quickly. I think being observant would tell me one way or the other whether it was safe to go to the store or not. The traffic would tell me lots since I know what average traffic for our area is. I know where all the exits are in the store I am thinking of and if things went sideways, I'd take one of the back exits, while making sure I was parked close to them. There's really nothing I need that badly in the local grocery, so if it looked sketchy, I'd skip it.

The whole point of this thread was to get people to think ahead and get to that point (at least in their mind) before the need arose. You make a good point about the cash. In the thread about 'how much cash do you carry', it would seem that many folks don't carry a lot of cash. In uncertain times like this, I think that could be a huge mistake. I have and carry a good amount. If I was on my way home and wanted to stop by the local grocery store, just 8 miles away, I coud purchase what I needed to without worry about how to pay for it. The bank would not be on my list of places to go......most especially this week.

 

[Terri9630]

I believe you, but I don't understand it. It seems being out in the open has to always be a bad place to be under attack. I suspect there must be something about this that I am completely missing but I can't imagine ever wanting to be under attack out in the open. This would seem to give you the least possible options. In fact it seems the only option is to hope you are a better shot than your attackers as in the open you won't have any force multipliers.

Your trapped in a building. In the "open" you can move around and hit your attacker from many areas. Of course "open" really depends on the terrain. I'm in a forested mountain. Someone in Kansas will have more issues hiding.

 

[Tacitus]

2) The situation in general would be changing very rapidly - over a time scale shorter than that of your last minute shopping

Knowing what you need to do is half the battle. Many will be standing around waiting for instructions, waiting to see what others will do. There will be a lag period during which a knowledgeable person can act, I think. Maybe not, but if not, a knowledgeable person will figure that out immediately, as well, and move on to the next thing on their list. 99% of the people will not have a list, and won't even start making it for a brief period.

3) The local situation at the site you choose to do that shopping could change very rapidly - like if panic breaks out, stocks run out or even if something like the card/electronic payment system suddenly fails (which it is very likely to do at some point).

I consider this very likely. Cash is a prep item. There will be a period of time where cash will be king...until it is worthless. During that period, it is important to have physical cash on hand.

4) Not everyone who needs supplies will "have extra cash to buy more right now" - what will those people do at the same stores you plan to do your last shopping trip.

Solid point. It probably pays to arm up soon, although there will be a lag period before people start getting violent. It is important to act in that intitial stunned peaceful period.

So in a rapidly developing (severe) crisis, you may not be able to practically know it is (or will be) safe.

Maybe not, but there is no reason to let that paralyze you into inaction.

One other thing to consider is this - the COVID-19 crisis has been relatively mild compared to many of the crises that dedicated preppers prepare for - and yet even when this unfolded as slowly as it has, there was still panic buying and stock outs. Imagine what would happen if, what was spread out over a few months was instead applied to a few hours (or less).

True. But I was able to get PPE supplies before the panic started. If you know what you need, and the triggers for getting it, you can be the one who gets what you need while others sit and stare.

In the initial panic of the next SHTF event, most people will buy what they bought for the last event. So, for an EMP, people will rush to the store to buy covid supplies: paper towels, toilet paper, and even water. (People were buying water for covid. I could never figure that out, but they were.) I wouldn't be shocked to see people buying hand sanitizer. And, after all, I suppose it is a good firestarter...and with no running water, it may be very important to have.

It can be argued that prepping is fundamentally about being well ahead of the overwhelming majority of people - in adopting the survival mindset, getting somewhere remote, getting skills needed to survive, getting equipment/supplies, getting independent energy, water, food, finance, security, medical, communications, transport, etc established.

Exactly. Part of the advantage of the prepper is mindset/awareness/plans. Part of it is preps. I don't have any one scenario perfectly prepared for, but I have many partially prepared for, and I know what I intend to do if those other events happen. I also know to look for SHTF events. I won't be standing around saying "what do we do?"

Actually, that is why I got into prepping. I never want to be in a situation when my kids ask me, "What do we do?" and I don't have an answer. I will have an answer for them.

 

[Amish Heart]

Maybe the trick is to have all those things mentioned already done. Like the shopping, water, and fuel.
I think the unknown in our situation is the family members.
Well, you're right there, Terri. No mountains here. But I have 3 silos and 10 outbuildings and alot of weird hiding places around here. Ha Ha. Hide and seek time. The kids play with the neighbor kid and sometimes they give up.

 

[Neb]

The last thing I'd want to do is go to a store. I tell our kids and grandkids to stay out of stores during an emergency. Just come home. We're good.

Yes..

Even if the elections turn towards Biden the adults in the room are capable of taking their knocks and moving on.

Take it as a training lesson on move on.

Our task is not to survive,but rather to thive.
Ben

 

[Neb]

In the event of an EMP there will be no shopping because no electronic transition will go through. Modern cars will die, ...all but the most primitive systems will operate.

An EMP will take us back to the stone age. But if we have the wherewithal to cheat the process of recreating technology we can bridge the gap and resomve at a practical state. Say 1880 technology we could bring the world back in a short clip.

Ben

 

[Amish Heart]

Some of those things, I don't care if they come back or not.

 

[Aerindel]

Your trapped in a building. In the "open" you can move around and hit your attacker from many areas. Of course "open" really depends on the terrain. I'm in a forested mountain. Someone in Kansas will have more issues hiding.

Yes....but so can your enemies. Thats what I mean by lack of force multipliers. Its only an advantage if you have it and your enemies don't.

"Trapped" is also relative. If your 'trapped' with food, water, ammo, medical supplies, cover and concealment and your enemy is running around outside, with everything he owns on his back, are you really trapped?

And if the building you are in is set up right, you have enfilade and defilade to work with. In other works, the enemy can't actually hit you from multiple angles, the fortifications limit those angles to your fields of fire.

 

[Amish Heart]

Wouldn't mind me being trapped in our milkhouse. It's old 1900's built thick concrete. It's a building that is not noticed much. Still redoing room number 2, but it's got some good hidey holes, like the place where the turkey vulture was hatched and grew. Water storage and generators are stored in one room in there currently. Deciding what to do with room number 2, after it's painted this week.

 

[Sourdough]

I have become far less concerned about EMP attack, now that all countries suddenly know it is OK to release a DNA targeted virus on those you loath.

My current concern is we could have many man made viruses circling the earth soon. Everything could be locked down. Everyone has what they have, or what they can defend.

 

[Terri9630]

Yes....but so can your enemies. Thats what I mean by lack of force multipliers. Its only an advantage if you have it and your enemies don't.

"Trapped" is also relative. If your 'trapped' with food, water, ammo, medical supplies, cover and concealment and your enemy is running around outside, with everything he owns on his back, are you really trapped?

And if the building you are in is set up right, you have enfilade and defilade to work with. In other works, the enemy can't actually hit you from multiple angles, the fortifications limit those angles to your fields of fire.

Are your food, water and power supplies inaccessible from outside but unlimited inside? Bullet proof, breach proof? Most buildings aren't.

 

[Dalewick]

Simply put. If you live in a conventional stick built home and the people outside know your in the house and not under ground. You will die. Modern ammo for common rounds like 5.56mm Nato (223 Rem) and 7.62 mm Nato (308 Win.) penetrate all the way through a house and out the other side. House walls offer "0" protection from bullets. Modern 5.56 ammo will penetrate 6mm of steel armor, and thats just regular ball ammo. Green tip penetrator rounds that are so popular will penetrate more. Modern 7.62 ammo will completely pass through a brick house. You can even find these test on youtube.

I can't find it at the moment, but there is a chart showing the penetration ability of all small arms.

FYI - There are many of us out here that know how to manufacture items such as grenades (offensive and defensive), mortars, shaped charges and rockets from supplies available at Lowes, Walmarts, etc.

Do with this what you will. A house or any structure that is not reinforced concrete is concealment at best. It is not cover. I you can place at least 36 inches of soil between you and your attacker, your good. Can your homes structure hold that weight? The old U.S.Army field manual on MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) FM 90-10 can be quite informative on such things. Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) — FM 90-10

I am a combat vet. I've been on both sides of the barrel and can tell you that getting shot sucks and shrapnel is no better. My group is made around a core of combat veterans and I realize most people won't have that benefit. I think most will want to be as prepared as they can if it all goes sideways.

Just my opinion. Please ignore it if you want to.

Dale

 

[Sourdough]

And we have not even discussed FLIR Thermal Rifle Scopes. Which many predator hunters own and use.

 

[Aerindel]

Are your food, water and power supplies inaccessible from outside but unlimited inside? Bullet proof, breach proof? Most buildings aren't.

I won't use the word 'proof'. But resistant....yeah. I won't say 'unlimited' either....but months...sure. Anyone on the outside would run out of food and water long before I did.

My place is not most buildings. Like I said, designed and built from the ground up for this. A small complex of guard towers, trenches and bunkers.

But even most buildings provide concealment. Even if a normal house is not a great advantage, I would have to think anything beats just running around in the open trading shots until someone gets hit. That sounds like insanity. And is simply unbelievable. Every solider since the invention of the sling has used available cover.

Only exception I can think of where I wouldn't want to be in home would be if there where low flying aircraft targeting every building in the area. A hellfire missile would take me out. If that was happening I would move out of the house and to the bunker since it can't be seen from the air. The house is pretty concealed but thermal or a low flying plane could still probably spot it. The bunker is heavily concealed but its a fallback location, for anything less than heavy ordinance my 'house' is a better place to defend.

Anyway....with 12 hours notice for me its mostly a matter of flipping switches. Filling up the water tanks if they need it. Closing the gates, Getting everyone home and dressed. I wouldn't go into town and go shopping. If I was STARTING out in town and nobody but me knew what was coming yet I supposed I would hit a store and max out the credit cards I never use on high value, prepping only items that I wouldn't expect to have to ever pay off. But really, there isn't a great deal to do in that time frame for a completely generic threat.

 

[bkt]

does anyone rely at least partially on cameras for observation? they have really come down in price

Yeah, I have several indoor and outdoor cameras set up covering all doors and also covering a fair amount of the property. I prefer not dealing with systems that require internet because that can easily be knocked out. Just cams hooked to my network controlled by my PCs that I can set alerts for.