Abortion Bills

[Dani]

I really dont care how abortion has evolved over time or if God himself accepts this practice. Have you seen how a partial birth abortion is preformed? If not maybe you should. Even though the head of this precious baby has not been delivered in the world to take its first breath and still considered non humane for some. it is atrocious to do to a defenseless baby. How about we start using that type of elimination to criminals who are on death row. I can guarantee there would be an uproar.

 

[Psalm7]

There is an issue related to this that hasn't been brought up.

The Right to Life ideals are often portrayed as a long-held Christian value, and nothing is further from the truth.

Midwives (who preformed abortions for hundreds of years) used to freely (if euphamistically) advertise their services on every church bulletin board....as the church used to be the center of the community.

It wasn't until the 1840s or so that abortion was portrayed as a religious issue about the sanctity of life when male doctors started to usurp the midwives as obstetricians, so a lot of this conflict stems from a business disagreement between midwives and physicians.

As far as the Bible goes, there is a passage in the Old Testament which states that a person must pay a fine if he strikes a pregnant woman and she loses the baby.

I'm not saying that there aren't holes in my argument.

The biggest one is that--for example--science evolves as we learn more, and we expand our knowlege and apply it.

One can also say that Christianity has evolved as we learn and understand more, and abortion--once considered (by almost all churches) to be a private matter between a midwife and her patient--has become a matter of life and death to people (ie: unborn babies) who can't be their own advocate.

If we accept this view, then we are accepting that Christianity can grow and change, so then everything else--such as gay marriage and birth control--can be reinterpreted in a better light.

I never believed that Christ intended that his followers stop reinterpreting his teachings in the face of a changing world.

Exodus 20:3 Thy shall not muder . Exodus 20:22 ( the one you refered to ) if you harm a Women with Child and causes a premature birth without permanent harm the Husband can decide punishment . If it results in a death or permanent harm then death for a death , eye for a eye .
Psalms 127 : 3 Children are a heritage from the Lord .
Psalms 139 : 13 The Lord formed you in the womb
Apostle Paul and John the Baptist taught that The Lord formed You in the Womb .
GOD condemned the practices of sacrificing Children to Baal and other false gods .
Deuteronomy 12 : 13 You shall not worsip Me as They do their gods
They practice every abomination Even burning Their Son's and Daughters to Their idols
Thoes are paraphrased not word for word .
As far as science , Anyone studying Biology has to know that life begins at conception . Therefore killing a Baby on day one is Child murder . Anyone supporting or participating in that practice is guilty of Child murder .

GOD'S word never changes . With the gay issue thats between thoes that participate in that and GOD . There is 2 points in the Bible to study on that issue .
You keep bringing up the not allowing birth control thing . Iv been a Christian as far back as I can remember , yes by choice it definitely wasn't forced on Me . Iv heard countless sermons and teachings and never have I heard a word against common birth control methods . It seems you get your spiritual guidance from old movies or outdated anti Christian propaganda . Its like Your saying a Preacher wont let them use condoms so They just gotta get a abortion . Thats nonsense . Im sure at some point and time Iv heard a Preacher recommend to Couples they probably should buy some Trojans because they Were getting more Kids than They were able to keep up with .
Yes I know about the Catholic teachings about such but thats Their denomination and Nobody makes Them stay there and even They have different teachings on that from place to place .

 

[user 6493]

just give me absolute proof that your God is real,,,,I will save you the trouble ,,,,everyone knows it is a leap of faith to believe in God for there is no absolute proof,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,your bible was written by men and until there is absolute proof it doesn't mean squat

 

[user 6493]

I am pretty much fed up with the Bible thumpers preaching what can not be proved

 

[tmttactical]

I find this abortion debate interesting. I offered a middle ground but both pro and con ignored it. To be fair, you cannot require a woman to carry a child to full term. BUT Once it becomes viable, then the woman loses's her right to terminate and must either give birth then (c-section) or carry full term. The woman is not entitled to kill a viable child. Both sides are served, in that a fetus that is not viable cannot be a child, as it cannot survive out side of the woman. Take out the emotion and make it a matter of medical viability. At some point, the medical community will develop a way to safely remove a fetus and raise it in an artificial womb and the there will not be any reason or need to destroy a fetus /child.

 

[Dani]

I find this abortion debate interesting. I offered a middle ground but both pro and con ignored it. To be fair, you cannot require a woman to carry a child to full term. BUT Once it becomes viable, then the woman loses's her right to terminate and must either give birth then (c-section) or carry full term. The woman is not entitled to kill a viable child. Both sides are served, in that a fetus that is not viable cannot be a child, as it cannot survive out side of the woman. Take out the emotion and make it a matter of medical viability. At some point, the medical community will develop a way to safely remove a fetus and raise it in an artificial womb and the there will not be any reason or need to destroy a fetus /child.

Being female it is hard for me to separate emotions when it comes down to an innocent baby who has no choice in if they live or die because of some selfish woman who cares more about herself than her unborn baby.

 

[tmttactical]

Being female it is hard for me to separate emotions when it comes down to an innocent baby who has no choice in if they live or die because of some selfish woman who cares more about herself than her unborn baby.

That is the exact reason emotion has to be taken out of the equation. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of time. Unwanted pregnancies used to by slowed down by the stigma of being an unwed mother. But since modern morality not longer condemns women (they should have blamed the male too) for getting PG and being single, modern female can get knocked up and not fear recrimination. So the only handi cap to a care free sex life is those inconvenient oops (a pregnancy). Since so many woman can now make this a case of inconvenience, then there must be a legal (non-emotional) way to determine when a fetus becomes a human child. By using the viability option / determination, then there is no excuse for a female to let the situation either happen or continue. Life does not begin at conception (legal reason) or any woman who has a miscarriage could be charged with a crime -- child abuse, if someone thinks she may have done anything that may have contributed to the miscarriage. The viability is a medical term that can be defined and proven in court, thus removing the option for late term abortions. As I stated, medical procedures continue to improve and will eventually end all abortions ---IF--- the viability is the determining factor of when is a fetus a human child. As long as it stays an issue of of a womans right to control her body, the abortion issue will never be resolved. Compromise -- non-viable, the woman can choose. Once Viable, the woman can only choose to go full term or have a c-section both allow the child a chance to live. End of story.

 

[Dani]

That is the exact reason emotion has to be taken out of the equation. Abortion has been going on since the dawn of time. Unwanted pregnancies used to by slowed down by the stigma of being an unwed mother. But since modern morality not longer condemns women (they should have blamed the male too) for getting PG and being single, modern female can get knocked up and not fear recrimination. So the only handi cap to a care free sex life is those inconvenient oops (a pregnancy). Since so many woman can now make this a case of inconvenience, then there must be a legal (non-emotional) way to determine when a fetus becomes a human child. By using the viability option / determination, then there is no excuse for a female to let the situation either happen or continue. Life does not begin at conception (legal reason) or any woman who has a miscarriage could be charged with a crime -- child abuse, if someone thinks she may have done anything that may have contributed to the miscarriage. The viability is a medical term that can be defined and proven in court, thus removing the option for late term abortions. As I stated, medical procedures continue to improve and will eventually end all abortions ---IF--- the viability is the determining factor of when is a fetus a human child. As long as it stays an issue of of a womans right to control her body, the abortion issue will never be resolved. Compromise -- non-viable, the woman can choose. Once Viable, the woman can only choose to go full term or have a c-section both allow the child a chance to live. End of story.

And me. .. Well I am for both parties to be rational. Hell, at least one since it takes two to tango. I understand where you are coming from and get what you are trying to say, but when are we as a society going to expect and demand more from a person. I feel like this is a hey you get a trophy for participating even though it was a fail you get a pass antway. Abortion was not a common thing back in the day and it should not be nownow, except society is more accepting than used to be. 25 years ago you would have been called a **** where I grew uow.

 

[Mountain trapper]

When I saw my grandchildren born and held them in my arms for the first time, it changed how I felt about abortion. It made me see just how wrong it is to kill an innocent baby and how precious life is. I'm far from being a "Bible thumper" but wrong is wrong. I don't care what is legal, the history of abortion, religious beliefs, or that "women will get one anyway" it's still wrong to kill babies. Everytime I see my grandbabies I'm thankful that my daughter loved them and cared enough for them that she didn't choose to get them hosed down the drain. Whoever thinks that it's ok to kill a baby at or near birth should have the same procedure preformed on them.
Aren't we all glad that our parents didn't choose abortion, no matter how "inconvenient" it might have been for them?

 

[user 7704]

A 27 year old man is suing his parents for giving birth to him without his permission.

The man is serious.

 

[TexasFreedom]

UP,

The issue with your approach is that it violates the morals of both sides. Negotiating when a baby can be killed to me is still killing a baby. For a leftist, they believe that it is not a baby until it is born AND wanted. Anything less than that and they see the slippery slope of acknowledging that it is a living human being.

GG, drop dead. (now let me apologize for saying that). But seriously, that will be the only complete proof other than the second coming of Christ. No belief if an afterlife is provable including aethist. Individual death and personal experience will be the only 'proof' we will each be given, and every 'religion' points out that at that point it's too late.

 

[user 6493]

UP,

The issue with your approach is that it violates the morals of both sides. Negotiating when a baby can be killed to me is still killing a baby. For a leftist, they believe that it is not a baby until it is born AND wanted. Anything less than that and they see the slippery slope of acknowledging that it is a living human being.

GG, drop dead. (now let me apologize for saying that). But seriously, that will be the only complete proof other than the second coming of Christ. No belief if an afterlife is provable including aethist. Individual death and personal experience will be the only 'proof' we will each be given, and every 'religion' points out that at that point it's too late.

right back at you,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is no proof and you know it,,,,so you can kiss my butt

 

[Proud Prepper]

right back at you,,,,,,,,,,,,,there is no proof and you know it,,,,so you can kiss my butt

The two of you need to stop the personal affection for each other. Lets keep it to constructive opinions.

 

[user 6493]

The two of you need to stop the personal affection for each other. Lets keep it to constructive opinions.

someone tells me to drop dead I won't let that pass,,,,,,,

I don't care what he or anyone else believes,it's not my business until they start preaching,,,there is nothing worse than a BIBLE THUMPER,,,,no other opinion matters,,,

as for abortion do I approve NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but no one has the right to tell anyone else how they should live their life...............PERIOD

 

[Psalm7]

Yep no body should tell 60,000,000 Children They cant live Their lives .
Christians have as much Freedom to express Their views as Anyone else . Nobody is going to prevent Me from that .
Got a problem with someone exercising Their rights of free speech then plug Your ears or walk on .

 

[user 6493]

Yep no body should tell 60,000,000 Children They cant live Their lives .
Christians have as much Freedom to express Their views as Anyone else . Nobody is going to prevent Me from that .
Got a problem with someone exercising Their rights of free speech then plug Your ears or walk on .

BUD BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT BUT DON'T TRY TO PREACH TO ME,,,,IF I WAS AT ALL INTERESTED I WOULD BE GOING TO CHURCH

 

[Psalm7]

Its not Preaching , Its a lifestyle .

 

[user 6493]

Its not Preaching , Its a lifestyle .

I have seen Bible Thunpers get the crap beat out of them because they would not leave someone alone after being told to stop,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[user 6493]

it's not a threat it's a fact,,,,,,,,both partys were in the wrong

 

[Psalm7]

I have seen Bible Thunpers get the crap beat out of them because they would not leave someone alone after being told to stop,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Apostle Stephen was stoned to death and never stopp teaching the word , Paul was beaten and imprisoned and never stopped and was beheaded , Andrew was crucified on a X cross so now We have the starry cross of St Andrew on the Confederate Battle Flag , Peter was crucified upside down , He asked to be because He didn't think He deserved to be crucified as the Lord Jesus Christ .

Iv been beaten up and I have beaten the crap out of idiots that thought jumping at Me was a good idea .
Like I said Nobody stops Me from speaking as I choose .

 

[user 6493]

then you know the danger of what you do,,,,,,I am just glad I am no where near you

 

[Psalm7]

 

[TexasFreedom]

GG,

My comment 'drop dead' was not said as an insult. It was stated as a way to make a point. After you die, the truth will be known to you. I thought I made that point. Sorry you didn't get it.

 

[user 6493]

GG,

My comment 'drop dead' was not said as an insult. It was stated as a way to make a point. After you die, the truth will be known to you. I thought I made that point. Sorry you didn't get it.

TF it's OK,,,I have been been hit with worse comments than that,,,,


what I believe is time is a circle we will all be here again one day

 

[tmttactical]

UP,

The issue with your approach is that it violates the morals of both sides. Negotiating when a baby can be killed to me is still killing a baby. For a leftist, they believe that it is not a baby until it is born AND wanted. Anything less than that and they see the slippery slope of acknowledging that it is a living human being.

That was the point I was making and why the abortion issue will never end. More and more babies will die, simply because neither side will agree on the only solution that would stop the carnage. I am not pro-abortion but I also cannot agree that a women does not have control over her body UNTIL the baby can live outside her body. But you all go on allowing more and more babies to die, so YOUR moral compass is content and you all can feel self righteous for accomplishing absolutely nothing. There is a way to end abortion, if you are willing to see it. But then I have always felt a live baby was more important than my opinion or position. Is it better to stand your ground and lose all those babies or better to modify you stance and save half or more of the babies now and all the babies in the future. Your Choice!!

 

[Psalm7]

If someone does not like the Christian idea of You never kill the innocent then look at the science , if you know anything about Biology then you know that life begins at conception . Killing the most vulnerable People is cold blooded calculated Murder .

 

[Dani]

That was the point I was making and why the abortion issue will never end. More and more babies will die, simply because neither side will agree on the only solution that would stop the carnage. I am not pro-abortion but I also cannot agree that a women does not have control over her body UNTIL the baby can live outside her body. But you all go on allowing more and more babies to die, so YOUR moral compass is content and you all can feel self righteous for accomplishing absolutely nothing. There is a way to end abortion, if you are willing to see it. But then I have always felt a live baby was more important than my opinion or position. Is it better to stand your ground and lose all those babies or better to modify you stance and save half or more of the babies now and all the babies in the future. Your Choice!!

I am a believer that life starts at conception and once that happened it should be the whole 9 months if the mother can physically do that, if not there are other resources to help baby along. I want to save babies. . . what is your option?

 

[tmttactical]

If someone does not like the Christian idea of You never kill the innocent then look at the science , if you know anything about Biology then you know that life begins at conception . Killing the most vulnerable People is cold blooded calculated Murder .

I am a believer that life starts at conception and once that happened it should be the whole 9 months if the mother can physically do that, if not there are other resources to help baby along. I want to save babies. . . what is your option?

People want their cake and eat it too. You can save some now and all in the future or you can stand on your beliefs and lose them all, now and in the future. Agree on a legal definition based on viability and then the abortionist -- it's her body -- stance become untenable. You can still believe as you like but at least this way some and eventually all the unborn babies will be viable and saved. Again, your choices. To change abortion laws, the majority have to agree and when both sides are stuck on their far left and far right positions, nothing changes, except the number of dead babies. Find a position those in the middle can agree upon and you will be saving those precious lives. Yes you will still have those on the far left opposing this viability concept but enough people in the middle will buy in. Then you can be proud of an accomplishment and not just a person belief.

 

[user 6493]

I am a believer that life starts at conception and once that happened it should be the whole 9 months if the mother can physically do that, if not there are other resources to help baby along. I want to save babies. . . what is your option?

when I was much younger a girl I knew in her early 20s became pregnant she carried the baby to term and then gave it up,,I believe her family forced her to,,I watched who she was shrivel and die she was never the same person,she had always been outgoing and enjoyed her life after the birth she became reclusive aloof,unapproachable ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now just what did carrying that baby to term do for her,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,nothing it ruined her life................ you people can preach about the babies all you want but what about the young woman carrying that child,,,she has rights also

 

[Dani]

Yes she had rights. She also had a right not to become pregnant, but I don't know her circumstance on whether she was a willing participant. In her 20s parents can not force anything upon her. It has to be her choice. Why she would choose to withdraw from people, I can not answer that. I do know that people make mistakes that they have to live with for the rest of their lives. How a person handles their emotions is up to them. They can become a much stronger person or they can let it beat them down. Once again, their choice.