Agricultural water pumping

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ssonb said:
Sorry bigkid last night I just jumped into the conversation.
I am a retired FF/EMT and a trained fire pump operator ( I retired 16 years ago) so you will have to forgive me cause I am a bit rusty and way out of practice in figuring friction losses.
Those style pumps are the bread an butter of the fire service but the do have their limitations especially in the setting where there is no pressurized water supply.
As a rule of thumb you will lose ten psi of water flow pressure for approximately every 12 feet of rise, so if I was reading your situation correctly the pump was rated at 130 psi and you have a 175 foot rise that means .....
Oh heck , lets make it simple 10 ft of rise = 10psi loss so you have a shortfall of 50psi in pump performance to meet your goals and that does not take into account the Internal friction losses from the sides of the hose/pipe.
The internal friction losses in the lines are the easiest to improve.... Double the size/diameter you reduce the losses by a factor of 4 At the same pressure and volume. You are limited to the increase in pipe size by the volute diameter in your pump.

I have close to the same problem in the community where I live. The nearest water source that is viable for fire protection here is is a tad over 100ft down and 800 ft away so any fire in our neighborhood the FD will have to send at least two pumpers to get any meaningful water flow to the fire scene with one pumping water to another a few hundred feet away.
OH BTW ........ Merry Christmas.
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I appreciate any and all help with regards to things I know so little about! I now have all the proper pieces to take the 1 inch pickup line and replace it with the 1 1/4 inch pickup it's supposed to use. Hopefully that will help. Pressure is not really a concern here as most of the time it's free flowing filling tanks. It would however be nice if it did have pressure enough to run a couple double ended sprinklers. The old roller pump would just barely run two when it was new but quickly backed down to one within a month or two.

Merry Christmas to you as well.
 
@ssonb My real question to you is do these type of pumps last? I can not keep replacing pumps every year or two. It's not like they run all day everyday more like an hour or two a week most of the year and and maybe half a day once a week when crops need watering. Although this year I hope to add another acre or better yet two to what I irrigate! Which would make a total of three to four acres.
 
Biggkidd said:
@ssonb My real question to you is do these type of pumps last? I can not keep replacing pumps every year or two. It's not like they run all day everyday more like an hour or two a week most of the year and and maybe half a day once a week when crops need watering. Although this year I hope to add another acre or better yet two to what I irrigate! Which would make a total of three to four acres.
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Jumping in...

There is a joke among engineers that goes.

The pessimist says the glass is half empty.
The optimist says the glass is half full.
The engineer says the glass is perfectly sized being able to handle twice required.

Bottom line is specifying double the required demand proceeded a margin of error. Running equipment at it's max will lead to failure.

Just my 2 cents ( which is about 1 cent worth a year ago)

Ben
 
LOL The
Neb said:
Jumping in...

There is a joke among engineers that goes.

The pessimist says the glass is half empty.
The optimist says the glass is half full.
The engineer says the glass is perfectly sized being able to handle twice required.

Bottom line is specifying double the required demand proceeded a margin of error. Running equipment at it's max will lead to failure.

Just my 2 cents ( which is about 1 cent worth a year
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LOL Then I should be fine! haha The pump claims it can free flow 70GPM and do over 40 GPM @130 psi I'd be happy to see 25 GPM free flow and would be okay with 20 GPM free flow at the end of the run I have to work with...

My figures came out that I should be right around 90 psi at the pump free flowing at the top of the hill considering the length of run and lift required.
 
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Sorry for the delayed reply to your longevity question.....
I attended a Hale pump school, actuality a three day seminar but we did take apart a pump and reassemble, I was involved in fire maintenance for a bit.
In our area most all the pumps lasted up to 20 years with very few problems.
The most problem prone area was the seals on the shaft that would wear from friction and pressure and cause a water leak. The other issue on these units was after so many years or service is the loss of efficiency thru erosion from sand and debris being pushed thru the unit and cavitation but these are higher pressure and volume pumps...for example being rated at 350psi/1500gpm.

You would be better served with a large rotary gear pump at the source feeding, and this pump up hill as a booster both working at a lower speed.

The pipe diameter is still a problem.
 
ssonb said:
Sorry for the delayed reply to your longevity question.....
I attended a Hale pump school, actuality a three day seminar but we did take apart a pump and reassemble, I was involved in fire maintenance for a bit.
In our area most all the pumps lasted up to 20 years with very few problems.
The most problem prone area was the seals on the shaft that would wear from friction and pressure and cause a water leak. The other issue on these units was after so many years or service is the loss of efficiency thru erosion from sand and debris being pushed thru the unit and cavitation but these are higher pressure and volume pumps...for example being rated at 350psi/1500gpm.

You would be better served with a large rotary gear pump at the source feeding, and this pump up hill as a booster both working at a lower speed.

The pipe diameter is still a problem.
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Before I run it again I will swap the 1 inch intake pipe with the 1 1/4 now that I have the proper foot valve. The output calls for the 1 inch pipe so I should be good there.
 
Biggkidd said:
Water pumping has been a source of problems around here ever since I moved here. First it has to come from the creek 175 feet below the fields. Second it has to travel about 2000 linear feet to get to the fields. I’ve tried a number of various pumps over the years. Third we need a fair amount of water just for the cows not to mention the other critters and the crops. So we need something that can pump at least 20 GPM and 50 would be better. Just bought a new roller pump less than two years ago and it blew apart a few weeks ago. Pumps with that kind of flow and enough pressure to get it there are NOT cheap!
This time I’m upping my game of course this means nearly an entirely new build. I’ve been using a Honda GC 160 to power the pump. Sadly that’s not going to be enough engine for the new pump I ordered last night. It’s an Ace FMC-150. It can use 10hp at max pressure and volume. So I’m going to couple it with a 13 hp Honda clone I’ve had sitting around. They claim it can do up to 130 psi and up to 135 GPM through a 1 1/4 pipe. Unfortunately I only have 1 inch pipe so I’ll have to neck it down to that which will restrict the flow a fair amount. If I can reliably get 20+ GPM to the field for more than two years it’ll be a win. I must admit I am hoping for more like 40-50 GPM and that it lasts until long after I expire! lol It’ll take about 75 psi just to get the water to the field so that should leave me with around 50 psi of working pressure to run sprinklers and such.
Hopefully this will be the last big pump I ever need to buy. But just incase it doesn’t work out as planned I am hoping you all have other options I’ve missed.
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For what it is worth, this is a situation I had.
I have a spring on one part of the property. I also have a dug pond, 1400 feet away with a 75' rise.
I dug a hole and buried a 55 gallon plastic drum, the top flush with the ground. The drum has two holes in the top. One has a float switch (for drought conditions), the other takes a regular household deep well electric pump. I have a 1 1/2" hole just a few inches below the water level of the spring, to let water into the drum, with a coarse screen followed by a fine screen to keep crap out of the pump. The pump feeds to a small water tank (to regulate the surge pressure), thence 1,400 feet to the pond. I have it entering through rocks, creating a waterfall. I have good luck with the deep well pumps lasting years, and the tank lets the pump rest once in a while through the day.
 
New water pump got caught in the last flood. It's seldom that creek floods but it not only flooded but got up over top of the pump and filled the engine full of water. Brand new engine only been run one time. After getting all the water out including a cylinder full (exhaust valve was open) I was able to get it running after a few hours of fooling with it. There must have been a quart of water between the cylinder and crankcase. So it has another oil change and I also switched the pickup pipe from 1 inch to the 1.25 the pump calls for. That did seem to increase the flow of the pump considerably!

We have to lift the pump up on some sort of legs before it can flood again. Two - two and a half feet should about do it.
 
Pulled the drain plug on the pump right at dark last night. Went back this morning to continue pumping only to find running water can and does freeze! We're talking a 3/8 stream shooting ten feet froze solid with water still in the pipe and pump! Color me surprised.
 
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What kind of temps are you having?
Once on a backpacking trip we saw a frozen bubble in the middle of a creek. Had to be 6" high and nearly perfectly round on top. Got down to 3 degrees on that trip. Had been in single digits for a week or so.
That was a AWESOME hike. Never saw anyone the whole weekend besides each other.
 
Bacpacker said:
What kind of temps are you having?
Once on a backpacking trip we saw a frozen bubble in the middle of a creek. Had to be 6" high and nearly perfectly round on top. Got down to 3 degrees on that trip. Had been in single digits for a week or so.
That was a AWESOME hike. Never saw anyone the whole weekend besides each other.
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Check out the ice crystal on the pond after a polar vortex 5 years ago.



Short video, watch to the end.

Ben
 
It has been single digit nights for a for a few in a row but last night was in the teens. The wind has been blowing pretty good though. The more timber they cut around me the more the wind picks up. I'm going to need wind breaks before it's all over and done with!
 
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