Contaminated Compost

[LastO]

So in today's world of ranching, many ranchers use chemicals to control weeds in their pastures. Grazon, and other sprays similar to Grazon can remain in the fields for a number of years. Cattle and horses intake the grass that is left. Now many people like to use animal waste as a fertilizer for their gardens. The problem lies with using animal waste as fertilizer that comes from animals that have grazed on sprayed fields are contaminating that waste with the same chemicals and can ruin a garden for many years after you add it to your soil. Curved leaves and plants that never produce fruit are the result. Be very careful where your composted fertilizer comes from. Insure that it does not come from animals that have ingested any of these weed control chemicals or you may kill your garden for many years.

 

[buildit]

The half-life of a herbicide in soil is the time it takes for 50% of the chemical to degrade or break down. From the table, it can be seen that metribuzin has an average half life of 60 days. So, after 60 days, only half of what was applied will remain. After
120 days, this 50% of the original amount will have decreased by half again, only 25% will remain. And so on.

http://www.smarttrain.com.au/__data...1863/Herbicide-Residues-in-Soil-and-Water.pdf

 

[LastO]

Yeah... put some in your garden and see how it is still active next year and the year after. Good luck on the 90 day thing.

Here are some images of a poisoned garden and info.

http://www.thesurvivalgardener.com/more-victims-of-satanic-grazon-herbicide/

 

[buildit]

So looking at the MSDS for Grazon herbicide I first find it is NOT highly toxic and has pretty high LD50's for all components straight out of the bottle.
Acute toxicity
Acute oral toxicity

Low toxicity if swallowed. Small amounts swallowed incidentally as a result of normal handling operations are not likely to cause injury; however, swallowing larger amounts may cause injury.

As product:
LD50, Rat, female, 2,598 mg/kg

Acute dermal toxicity

Prolonged skin contact is unlikely to result in absorption of harmful amounts.

As product:
LD50, Rabbit, male and female, > 5,000 mg/kg

Acute inhalation toxicity

Prolonged excessive exposure to mist may cause adverse effects. Based on the available data, respiratory irritation was not observed.

Maximum attainable concentration.
LC50, Rat, male and female, 4 Hour, dust/mist, > 1.38 mg/l

Independent study does recommend:
“KEEP LIVESTOCK OUT of treated areas for at least 7 days and until foliage of any poisonous weeds such as ragwort has died and become unpalatable”

A Cornell news release on their research showed that the correct application is the key and use on dense growth prolonged the half life.
E X T O X N E T
A Pesticide Information Project of Cooperative Extension Offices of Cornell University, Michigan State University, Oregon State University, and University of California at Davis. Major support and funding was provided by the USDA/Extension Service/National Agricultural Pesticide Impact Assessment Program.
ENVIRONMENTAL FATE
In heavy clay soil, picloram has a half life of slightly over two months. However, when more organic material is present, the half life of the compound nearly doubles. Breakdown by soil microorganisms occurs slowly, resulting in the formation of carbon dioxide (CO2) and the release of a chloride ion (5). The compound is mobile and relatively persistent in soil and can therefore leach to groundwater. Picloram has been detected in the groundwater of seven states (10).
In water, the action of sunlight is an important mechanism leading to the breakdown of the product. Herbicide levels in farm ponds which were 1 ppm at the time of spraying reached 10 ppb in 100 days primarily due to dilution and the action of sunlight. The movement of picloram in runoff after heavy rainfall may occur.

Picloram is readily absorbed by plant roots, less so by the foliage, and is readily translocated throughout plants. It remains stable and intact in plants.
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/metiram-propoxur/picloram-ext.html


*** So looking at Grazon in particular if you are finding compost to be contaminated it would seem one of the following might be true.
1. the application rate used was too high
2. the plant growth was too dense ( the field needed mowed or brush hogged before application)
3. the animals were allowed to graze too soon (Under normal conditions and proper application they should NOT graze the area within a two month period after application)
4. The application area had standing water or is poorly drained having heavy clay soils that prevented proper Photodegradation of the chemicals.
5. The other possibility is there is another contaminant like paraquat. https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-worker-safety/paraquat-dichloride-one-sip-can-kill

 

[goshengirl]

I can appreciate the science. But for me, the problem is all the unknowns. Maybe someone did use the product correctly, maybe they didn't. Maybe they used a different product altogether. I don't know. So I never use anyone else's materials in my compost. I have access to all the horse excrement I want from a neighbor who boards horses. But I take a pass.

My compost piles (rows about 6 feet wide and 40-50 feet long) are nothing but cut grass and dead leaves, with the periodical chicken bedding thrown in (we deep litter), and it composts to a beautiful dark organic matter. I'm pretty fastidious about layering the greens and browns, but that's it - nature goes to work and makes it awesome. So even though I know manure is highly desirable for compost, I go without and stick to my own materials where I know what's what. And I still end up with beautiful compost that our plants love.

 

[Weedygarden]

When I see compost labeled as organic, I always wonder how we can really know it is organic. Even if my property is all organic, how can I be sure that my neighbor's herbicide hasn't blown over? The best I can do is to be careful when making my own compost.

 

[Patchouli]

 

[goshengirl]

???
If my post came across as confrontational or negative in any way, it wasn't meant to be at all.

 

[Patchouli]

???
If my post came across as confrontational or negative in any way, it wasn't meant to be at all.

No, not in my opinion at all! I'm sorry if you thought this was directed at you. It is directed at ...the thread! I watch with interest and amusement because a thread I had started on a forum from another galaxy far away that has since died, maybe, turned into a really argumentative thread, it was about... organic gardening.

 

[buildit]

When I see compost labeled as organic, I always wonder how we can really know it is organic. Even if my property is all organic, how can I be sure that my neighbor's herbicide hasn't blown over? The best I can do is to be careful when making my own compost.

Organic labeling is a marketing tool in most cases but several groups have "tried" to get organics to be regulated. It is a hard thing to regulate as organic means different things to many people.

 

[goshengirl]

No, not in my opinion at all! I'm sorry if you thought this was directed at you. It is directed at ...the thread! I watch with interest and amusement because a thread I had started on a forum from another galaxy far away that has since died, maybe, turned into a really argumentative thread, it was about... organic gardening.

Lol, gotcha.:mugbump: I had no idea of that history.

 

[The Innkeeper]

Everyone I know who has used manure from horses fed on grazing treated grain or mulched with grazing treated straw has reported significantly higher than normal crop loss and reduced yields for 2-3 years. Perhaps not the most scientific of tests but happens often enough that I avoid the stuff. Perhaps the root cause was something other than grazing but I won’t chance it

 

[buildit]

Okay, I've continued to read on this subject in some University studies and the issue with contaminated compost is far more prevalent than I would have believed so @LastO I apologize as I was wrong and didn't know the full scope of the issues. It appears like my initial research indicated, many of the issues are from improper application and herbicides getting into water sources which then get consumed by livestock. It is rare but cases have been reported of herbicides persisting for up to two years in some feeds harvested from treated fields. Of course I found nothing on how the feed was harvested, stored, grown or what initial levels were. So I would agree that unless you know the source of the compost manure and the farming practices used it would be best not to use compost materials till they have had at least two years to completely break down. From what I have seen the persistent herbicides are restricted and would ONLY be applied by farmers or licensed applicators for residential lawn care. In other words they are not available off the shelf at Lowes or tractor supply stores.
The Herbicides of Concern

Aminopyralid, clopyralid, fluroxypyr, picloram, and triclopyr are in a class of herbicides known as pyridine carboxylic acids. They are registered for application to pasture, grain crops, nonresidential lawns, certain vegetables and fruits, and roadsides. They are used to control a wide variety of broadleaf weeds, including several toxic plants that can sicken or kill animals that graze them or eat them in hay. Based on USDAEPA and European Union agency evaluations, when these herbicides are applied to hay fields or pasture, the forage can be safely consumed by horses and livestock – including livestock produced for human consumption. These herbicides pass through the animal’s digestive tract and are excreted in urine and manure. They can remain active in the manure even after it is composted. They can also remain active on hay, straw, and grass clippings taken from treated areas. The herbicides leach into the soil with rainfall, irrigation, and dew. As with many other herbicides, they can remain active in the treated soil.

The chemicals of greatest concern are picloram, clopyralid, and aminopyralid because they can remain active in hay, grass clippings, piles of manure, and compost for an unusually long time. These herbicides eventually break down through exposure to sunlight, soil microbes, heat, and moisture. Depending on the situation, the herbicides can be deactivated in as few as 30 days, but some field reports indicate that breakdown can take as long as three to four years. Degradation is particularly slow in piles of manure and compost. When mulches, manures, or composts with herbicide activity are applied to fields or gardens to raise certain vegetables, flowers, or other broadleaf crops, potentially devastating damage can occur.

Crops known to be sensitive to picloram, clopyralid, or aminopyralid are: Beans; Carrots; Compositae family; Cotton; Dahlias; Eggplant; Flowers, in general; Grapes; Legumes; Lettuce; Marigolds; Mushrooms; Peas; Peppers; Potatoes; Roses, some types; Spinach; Sugar beets; Strawberries; Sunflowers; Tobacco; Tomatoes; Umbelliferae family; Vegetables, in general.
http://smallfarms.oregonstate.edu/sfn/f09Herbicide

Some other gardening tips for compost from University of Maryland seemed worth adding. https://extension.umd.edu/learn/gardener-alert-beware-herbicide-contaminated-compost-and-manure
What’s a gardener to do?

• Grass clippings can make a wonderful organic mulch and addition to the compost pile. Just be certain that the clippings you use were not sprayed with any herbicides. Don’t use neighborhood yard waste unless you’re sure it’s free of herbicides.

• Herbicide-contaminated compost and manure do not look or smell unusual. Most farmers who sell or give manure away may or may not know if their animals grazed on grasses or ate hay sprayed with aminopyralid or clopyralid. Ask commercial compost suppliers if their products are free of herbicide contaminants. Maryland Environmental Service (MES) is the producer of Leafgro, a very popular yardwaste compost available at garden centers throughout Maryland. MES has Leafgro tested regularly by an independent lab and have not detected aminopyralid or clopyralid.

• Bioassay test- this is the best way to test for possible contamination. You just mix some of the suspect material (hay, grass clippings, manure, compost) with a soil-less growing mix, dump it in a nursery pot, plant pea or bean seeds and observe what happens. Contamination is indicated if the seeds don’t germinate or seedlings emerge that are twisted and deformed.

General tips on using manure in home and community gardens

• Composted manure (that has reached 130 º F. for 3 consecutive days) can be incorporated into the soil in spring or fall.

• Un-composted manure should only be incorporated in the fall.

• No top-dressing or side-dressing of vegetable crops with un-composted manure.
  Wash all produce thoroughly after harvest.

• Never use dog or cat manure in your vegetable garden. They can be high in human pathogens.

• Do not make compost teas from animal manures. Only use plant-based composts for making compost tea.

• Horse manure is notorious for spreading weed seeds into gardens. Composting kills most of the weed seeds.

*** More good iformation-->> https://compostingcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/USCC-PH-Fact-Sheet-2-for-web.pdf

 

[LastO]

I have used these chemicals to take control of additional acreage we purchased that had been left to over grow with blackberry and many other invasive weeds. It worked very well. I only graze my horses on this pasture and I do not use their manure in my gardens. I buy hay for my goats from another source who uses sheep to keep control of most of the weeds in her fields and I do use the goat manure as well as manure from my chickens in my garden. I have had no problems so far. Thank you @buildit for your recent reply. No apology necessary. I posted this in the hopes of keeping others from making a huge mistake in their gardens.

 

[Weedygarden]

I have used these chemicals to take control of additional acreage we purchased that had been left to over grow with blackberry and many other invasive weeds. It worked very well. I only graze my horses on this pasture and I do not use their manure in my gardens. I buy hay for my goats from another source who uses sheep to keep control of most of the weeds in her fields and I do use the goat manure as well as manure from my chickens in my garden. I have had no problems so far. Thank you @buildit for your recent reply. No apology necessary. I posted this in the hopes of keeping others from making a huge mistake in their gardens.

Aren't goats good for weed control? I am wondering if a person used goats instead of spray if that would work as well, if not better, for less chemical contamination?

 

[SheepDog]

Goats can eat many things but there are things they don't eat. They are brousers so they prefer bushes and not ground weeds.

 

[TMT Tactical]

Now this is going to sound a bit strange. I was wondering if you could use the effluent from the septic system to be pumped to irrigate fruit trees and blackberry bushes. I had planned to incorporate the two types of septic systems (anaerobic and aerobic). As I understood the details, the water leaving the final stage is almost good enough to drink. So could this be used to safely irrigate? I am not sure tis fits this thread so if not, please let me know and I will post a new thread.

 

[ssonb]

We have not grown tomato's for a couple of years in a raised bed we have because the plants were getting a brown crust on the leaves and the plants were struggling , We had bought some commercially made composted cow manure that had worked for us wonderfully in the past ....but we found out that it most likely was contaminated with a "roundup" style herbicide and was harming the plants. we have let it lay fallow a couple of years and I am going to get a new load of topsoil this spring and start again. Dang I miss those tomato's and peppers....

 

[buildit]

Now this is going to sound a bit strange. I was wondering if you could use the effluent from the septic system to be pumped to irrigate fruit trees and blackberry bushes. I had planned to incorporate the two types of septic systems (anaerobic and aerobic). As I understood the details, the water leaving the final stage is almost good enough to drink. So could this be used to safely irrigate? I am not sure tis fits this thread so if not, please let me know and I will post a new thread.

The reason we do not use human waste on the foods we grow is because of contamination from human diseases. There are also a lot of organic salts in human waste that can kill off flora.

 

[TMT Tactical]

The reason we do not use human waste on the foods we grow is because of contamination from human diseases. There are also a lot of organic salts in human waste that can kill off flora.

I spent about 18 months in Japan and they use human waste for their fertilizer and foreigners cannot eat the local raw produce (Montezuma's revenge strike hard) but does not seem to harm the Japanese. Just wondered about the dual septic systems and if it would purify the wast effluent enough to make it safe to irrigate fruit and berry bushes.

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

I don't believe it would be a problem for trees and bushes. My concerns with human waste is all the contaminants such as medications and heavy metals that composting doesn't take care of. But then again, if one is already drinking water from the system......

 

[LastO]

Aren't goats good for weed control? I am wondering if a person used goats instead of spray if that would work as well, if not better, for less chemical contamination?

The lady I buy hay for my goats from uses sheep to control most weeds in her fields. The hay does have some weeds and such still in it and my goats seem to love it. I feel good about using the clean out from my goat pens for compost in my garden because I know she does not use chemicals. My horse compost I will not use as I know the pastures they eat in were sprayed.

 

[COSunflower]

The town next to us has experimental fields that they spray irrigate with cleaned sewage water. They are growing alfalfa I believe.

 

[TMT Tactical]

In the desert, water is our most precious commodity. If I can find ways to recycle / reuse it verses sending it down to the septic drain field, I will be much happier. Wells go dry and drought happens, just about the time the well goes dry. I want to find the best / most efficient use of all the water coming into the house and leaving the house. The idea of sending the water to a drain field seems like a waste.

 

[Patchouli]

Surely yall have heard of aerobic septic systems! It is filtered down through layers of gravel and sand and by that method, cleaned to an extent, and then used as irrigation for the lawn. It is very common here in north central Texas even in the nice neighborhoods. (Average house price $330k)
If there is too much rock in the ground where the water won't leach through, they have to install these types of systems to get rid of the septic. Normal septics have a couple of tanks, as you know. The sewage goes in, the bacteria breaks it down, then there's sludge, the water that comes off it separates from the sludge, goes into another tank and it then goes into a leach field by pipe. In some areas the leach field can't be put in because the ground won't percolate since it is too hard or rocky. So, the water is trapped after filtration and processed and it is pumped out on the lawns. A little stinky, but keeps the grass green.
Personally, we don't have that, I wouldn't want it, and I would not want to use it on my vegetable garden.

 

[Sewingcreations15]

@buildit I know of a lot of friends who use septic water to water their fruit trees and they have had no problems at all. We have septic systems here with bacteria that breaks it down and separates the waste in multiple tanks. You of course do not use it for your vegetable gardens however although you can use white water from your showers and baths if you use biodegradable products and water from your washing machines on vegetables where the fruits do not touch the ground or are root crops. It is important that you also use the waste water in conjunction with fresh water too.

 

[Meerkat]

Aren't goats good for weed control? I am wondering if a person used goats instead of spray if that would work as well, if not better, for less chemical contamination?

Goats are worse on the soil than sheep. Something about the nitrogen or urea in the urine I think it was, forgot?
Plus goats are escapes, they don't use the name in 'escape goat ' for naught.
Donkeys will sometimes give them a ' lift '. Story in Heehaw mag about farmer not understanding how his goats kept getting out, one night they stayed up and watched. Come to find out the donks were throwing the goats they didn't like over the fence. Donkeys are very smart you have to own one to understand what characters they are. I really miss my ass, both of em.

 

[Meerkat]

Now this is going to sound a bit strange. I was wondering if you could use the effluent from the septic system to be pumped to irrigate fruit trees and blackberry bushes. I had planned to incorporate the two types of septic systems (anaerobic and aerobic). As I understood the details, the water leaving the final stage is almost good enough to drink. So could this be used to safely irrigate? I am not sure tis fits this thread so if not, please let me know and I will post a new thread.

I guess so city people have been drinking reconstituted city water for a very long time. But I'd only use ours if I had the right filtering for pasture watering though.
We eat meat so our manure is not as healthy as cows and other non meat eaters.

 

[Meerkat]

I spent about 18 months in Japan and they use human waste for their fertilizer and foreigners cannot eat the local raw produce (Montezuma's revenge strike hard) but does not seem to harm the Japanese. Just wondered about the dual septic systems and if it would purify the wast effluent enough to make it safe to irrigate fruit and berry bushes.

My friend said same thing he was in Japan and said if we saw what they did in the rice paddies we would think twice about eating it.
Maybe thats why people next island in Okinawa don't eat rice, Okinawans are also the longest living people on earth or were.

 

[Dutchs]

The reason we do not use human waste on the foods we grow is because of contamination from human diseases. There are also a lot of organic salts in human waste that can kill off flora.

Do where does milorganite stand in the big scheme of things?