Let me step back & give some guidance. Evan, you want to talk about winning the Indy 500 race and you just got the training wheels off your bicycle. How about a step-by-step plan rather than jumping deep into things. Go listen to Dave Ramsey, do NOT go into debt over this. Start with having a few days food/supplies in your place. Have water. Increase that to a week, then a month. Work up to having a year's supply. And by that point, have a plan for a remote location. It has taken most of us years to get to where we are at. Bug out vehicles, bug out locations, stores & sustainable setups. Step back, consider a multi-year plan.
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Before I get started, I am not trying to rain on your parade but I am trying to point out some of the difficulties and costs associated with your project. Okay we are looking at 50K and you have not bought the land, just the well bond and the distillation unit. Now add in the very tall and expensive fences. Do you plan to install your selves or contract. How much land to you plan to fence? What is the cost of the fence per linear foot? What equipment are you planning to purchase and what is their cost? What is your definition for "Small Scale Community" ? What is the daily food allotments per person/ per day / per year? How many people full time required to operate you community? Is everybody invested going to live there? How many housing units? What are the rules of behavior? Mixing singles and couples can and most often will create social issues.
Now I have asked you a lot of questions, so I will now just point some bare problems. Yes shooting the farmers is viable concept if your group have the items I need or want. If you are building for a true SHTF / WROL / TEOTWAWKI, then traditional farming methods are out. You will not have the needed equipment, fertilizer, seeds, irrigation, processing equipment or security force. If you just plan to build and maintain a traditional farm community, then just buy a farm already in operation. As I stated out in the beginning, LOGISTIC. Large groups require a large amount of support materials. Large groups also bring along large personality, ego and mental problems. How many people can you find that are financially independent and can just move out to the country side live in your Small Scale Community? You skipped over the travel issue, so these people will need to live there full time. So just 10 couples (20 people) will need 10 separate housing units. How much food must you have stored for each person and for how many years.
You will need to have a project management person on site during the initial construction phase. Site development, land clearing, utility trenching, pad or foundation pours, building inspectors (I don't care how far out you build, they will be required). Then you will have to have structures built. Tool sheds, equipment sheds, animal cages / coups and barns. You cannot live on just deer and crops. You will want some other sources of meat. Chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs, domestic pigs, ducks, sheep, goats, etc. All these critters will have requirements, skills, knowledge, and time demands. And finally the actually housing units build and a whole new set of inspections. While all this is going on, you will have to have the money sitting the bank. Also remember just because something can be done, does not mean it will pass a building code. Example: Ozonation (spelling?) works great and is used in private pools and hot tubs BUT cannot be used in community pools --- WHY, the city inspectors are trained to test for pool chemical concentrations and can't test for bacterial levels, so no Ozone treatment. You may run into that with your water treatment plan or even you gas well delivery plan. So if you are building for rural life, buy a rural farm setup. If you are building for the end of times, you are going to need a lot more money that you can imagine, at least on the scale you are talking. Small family build, yes it is doable, "Small Scale Community" not very likely. Just too complicated, too costly and too little in return.
Now I have asked you a lot of questions, so I will now just point some bare problems. Yes shooting the farmers is viable concept if your group have the items I need or want. If you are building for a true SHTF / WROL / TEOTWAWKI, then traditional farming methods are out. You will not have the needed equipment, fertilizer, seeds, irrigation, processing equipment or security force. If you just plan to build and maintain a traditional farm community, then just buy a farm already in operation. As I stated out in the beginning, LOGISTIC. Large groups require a large amount of support materials. Large groups also bring along large personality, ego and mental problems. How many people can you find that are financially independent and can just move out to the country side live in your Small Scale Community? You skipped over the travel issue, so these people will need to live there full time. So just 10 couples (20 people) will need 10 separate housing units. How much food must you have stored for each person and for how many years.
You will need to have a project management person on site during the initial construction phase. Site development, land clearing, utility trenching, pad or foundation pours, building inspectors (I don't care how far out you build, they will be required). Then you will have to have structures built. Tool sheds, equipment sheds, animal cages / coups and barns. You cannot live on just deer and crops. You will want some other sources of meat. Chickens, rabbits, guinea pigs, domestic pigs, ducks, sheep, goats, etc. All these critters will have requirements, skills, knowledge, and time demands. And finally the actually housing units build and a whole new set of inspections. While all this is going on, you will have to have the money sitting the bank. Also remember just because something can be done, does not mean it will pass a building code. Example: Ozonation (spelling?) works great and is used in private pools and hot tubs BUT cannot be used in community pools --- WHY, the city inspectors are trained to test for pool chemical concentrations and can't test for bacterial levels, so no Ozone treatment. You may run into that with your water treatment plan or even you gas well delivery plan. So if you are building for rural life, buy a rural farm setup. If you are building for the end of times, you are going to need a lot more money that you can imagine, at least on the scale you are talking. Small family build, yes it is doable, "Small Scale Community" not very likely. Just too complicated, too costly and too little in return.
Why are you guys worried about how much it’s going to cost me? If the numbers didn’t work we wouldn’t be haveing this conversation.
Yes the farm equipment would still work even after an emp. We would use tractors that run off magnetos same goes for vehicles. The gas flows naturally so we would have fuel. we could sustain a modern farm.
Ok instead of me being asked a lot of broad questions going everywhere let’s assume I have the ranch infrastructure worked out.
I’ll paint a picture...
Say it’s a 25 family or 100 person community. Around 25 small houses inside a walled section appx 10 acres.
We dedicate 100 acres to grow crops. Deer livestock, along with chickens etc.
The entire property (400 acres)is high fenced.
Yes some people live there full time if they choose. Others have the option to drive or fly in to the town airport via their (private plane). I understand that’s not optimal.
Let’s assume the property is perfectly square.
I understand you guys are firmly against this concept but if you had to live here what steps would you take to protect it?
Brother You can’t be serious when saying you would or anyone else would shoot the farmers to steal crops. The other 100 people would notice and kill you. Any reasonable person would just sneak in and out at night and take what they need.
The whole point in having a large community is to discourage people like that. You would probably see that scenario play out in small groups .
First you cannot protect this community. You have painted a big bullseye on it with your high walls and operating equipment. Nobody else has any operational equipment, so you would stand out like sore thumb. Second, why would I risk sneaking into your compound when I can simply hold you all for ransom within your walls. You are not going to have a hundred people watching for me, they are going to be busy working, to stay alive. As the sniper, I am free to move about and leave and return at my leisure. As farmer or ranchers, you have crops to attend and animals that must be cared for. How long do you think your groups will hold together after I have shot and crippled a few of them. The wounded are a real morale downer. The place is not defend-able, just that simple.
Next, I don't see people with enough money to fly in with their own personal plane being ready and willing to go put in 12 or 16 hours of hard labor in the fields every day. That means there has to be hired help and of course their families. So WROL, why would the hired help not just kill off all the investors and keep the place just for themselves? They are already doing the work and money now means nothing, so why not just take over and run the place.
You survive in the SHTF times by being off the beaten path, not by lighting neon signs. You locate far from anybody and keep it small and restricted to just family. You don't run farm equipment when all around you people are looking for draft animal. You either blend in or you disappear (fade out of sight) but you do not stand out. That is the bullseye thing. Logistic again. You can't store enough food to feed 25 families, plus the hired help and their families and the animal for any length of time. So you will have to expose your group to open field harvesting and my nasty sniper tactics. People in general are not too far above the animals. you got food and they don't -- Target. You have power and they are burning candles -- Target. You have fuel and they are burning cow chips --- Target. You have been given some real good advice about starting small and learning about prepping and how to survive in a SHTF / WROL world. I suggest you take it. I seriously doubt you have the money and investors for this huge endeavor but it is doomed because you do not understand what a SHTF event is really going to look like or be like. Every contractor you hire is going to know about and tell everybody they know about the crazy rich outsider folks (you just got dehumanized to the locals) building this self reliant place. When the power goes out, where do you think the locals will be headed? There are so many concepts and details you have not considered. As for if I had to live there, I would gather my family, load up as much as possible and get the hell out before it collapsed. There is no possible way for this setup to survive post SHTF. Too big, too noisy, too expensive, too vulnerable, too visible, and too poorly planned.
Next, I don't see people with enough money to fly in with their own personal plane being ready and willing to go put in 12 or 16 hours of hard labor in the fields every day. That means there has to be hired help and of course their families. So WROL, why would the hired help not just kill off all the investors and keep the place just for themselves? They are already doing the work and money now means nothing, so why not just take over and run the place.
You survive in the SHTF times by being off the beaten path, not by lighting neon signs. You locate far from anybody and keep it small and restricted to just family. You don't run farm equipment when all around you people are looking for draft animal. You either blend in or you disappear (fade out of sight) but you do not stand out. That is the bullseye thing. Logistic again. You can't store enough food to feed 25 families, plus the hired help and their families and the animal for any length of time. So you will have to expose your group to open field harvesting and my nasty sniper tactics. People in general are not too far above the animals. you got food and they don't -- Target. You have power and they are burning candles -- Target. You have fuel and they are burning cow chips --- Target. You have been given some real good advice about starting small and learning about prepping and how to survive in a SHTF / WROL world. I suggest you take it. I seriously doubt you have the money and investors for this huge endeavor but it is doomed because you do not understand what a SHTF event is really going to look like or be like. Every contractor you hire is going to know about and tell everybody they know about the crazy rich outsider folks (you just got dehumanized to the locals) building this self reliant place. When the power goes out, where do you think the locals will be headed? There are so many concepts and details you have not considered. As for if I had to live there, I would gather my family, load up as much as possible and get the hell out before it collapsed. There is no possible way for this setup to survive post SHTF. Too big, too noisy, too expensive, too vulnerable, too visible, and too poorly planned.
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Think about multiple small raised box gardens or hidden hydroponics gardens. Look at smaller scale hidden structures. Less people that are more bonded together.
why try to maintain a modern farm? post SHTF everything will be different, supplies of everything will be run down, where will you get spare parts for your tractors and equipment? you say gas will naturally flow? from where, all fuel has to be processed and post SHTF its unlikely any processing plant will be functioning. without electricity there will be no manufacturing .
post SHTF you have to think differently, think smaller, think outside the box.
post SHTF you have to think differently, think smaller, think outside the box.
Try reading one second after or better yet, the Hard Road by an Angry American.
I guess I'm just a little confused on who all is supposed to be involved in this venture and how they are going to end up at the right place when SHTF, and how you are going to enforce the rules and contracts that will be necessary to make the place run. Long distances will be extremely difficult or impossible to travel after SHTF. The more people are involved, the more difficult it becomes to manage. And the kind of people who can afford to buy into this fantasy are not likely to be willing or able to actually perform the labor required to make it a success.
I have a different mindset than most here. I’ve actually always thought it was a good idea to be in a group. You said people are assets, and I couldn’t agree more. You can accomplish so much more collectively than you can alone. A lot of the objections brought up are valid points to consider and should be thought out for the best solution available, but with planning and effort I think a community is a smart idea. Security alone is a huge weakness for a small family group. Having numbers to rotate people for patrols and watch would make it a lot less easy to attack. I think most of the negative points brought up are going to be the same for small groups as it is for a larger one. The larger one has more resources and manpower to deal with issues though. Overall I feel the benefits of being in a community outweigh the risks of being on your own. I think a religious free, democratic run group would have a lot of potential. No neegan in charge, no Jim’s passing out coolaid, but one where the group makes decisions. One other thing I believe is solar is a better power option. It is silent and has less moving parts, simpler is more reliable. As far as not producing after dark, well, without cable tv and the internet, nighttime would quickly revert back to time for snuggling and sleeping.
groups depend on who is in them, either family or people one has known for many, many years, about 20 -30 years minimum.
expecting complete strangers to join your group or community post collapse is not only foolhardy it could be fatal.
without having people you can trust, solo or small family groups will be the only option.
don't expect there to be a huge pool of labour you can pick from because once the power goes down and the supermarket shelves are empty the mortality rate is going to be huge.
expecting complete strangers to join your group or community post collapse is not only foolhardy it could be fatal.
without having people you can trust, solo or small family groups will be the only option.
don't expect there to be a huge pool of labour you can pick from because once the power goes down and the supermarket shelves are empty the mortality rate is going to be huge.
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A democratic run group free of religion? That's that opposite of what you need. You need people that think alike and that have morals. You need a leader, you will not and I mean will not survive by a democratic committee. having a committee or council of the most respected and trusted of the group is good, but one such person will have to make the decisions and lead. The rest of the council advises the leader.
You need religion to form a common moral bond, not anything fanatical as your examples.
I have a moral code without religion. It’s called a conscience and knowing right from wrong. I do somewhat agree with having a smaller council to vote for the whole group. Taking a poll on every issue would be a waste of time. Not sure if I agree on one person being in charge though. Egos tend to get overinflated, and I believe several minds together make better decisions than just one.
You think you developed your moral code without the influence of religion? One leader is needed to make fast decisive decisions. The group chooses who there leader is to make decisions for them. Any decisions that are not time sensitive can be decided by committee.
I don’t think any of us have a Chrystal ball and know exactly how any scenario will actually play out. There’s just too many variables. I think there will be a lot of desperate and hungry people that would want to join the stability and safety of a community. Drawing on the talent and skills of some of them would be wise. Of course there would have to be some kind of vetting before just letting anyone in and also some sort of punishment for anyone not following rules etc. all I can say for sure is to keep an open mind, be flexible and at least listen to others ideas, and adapt the best you can to any new situations. I hope I don’t have to deal with such things in my lifetime but am pretty certain the lifestyles we are used to will change before too long.
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I think having an acting manager sounds better than leader. (Still have visions of neegan here). I do agree someone needs to be running the place on a daily basis though with the ability to make momentary decisions.
I don't need a crystal ball, I have history to see what the future could become. I hope you don't have to deal with such things either, you don't have enough of an idea how to handle such a situation. Sometimes people act automatically and make the right decisions no matter there sheeple programming, when there life is on the line, I hope you are such a person.
I guess that’s where the having a system to punish ones that don’t follow the rules comes into play. Would I let someone in the group and give them a loaded weapon on day one? Probably not.
punish? how? this is getter bizarre now.
don't ban them or ostrasize them or they'll come back with a mob of similar types and you'll have a fight on your hands.
you wont have facilities to imprison them and its wasted labour anyway.
you'll have to forgive them or hang them.
don't ban them or ostrasize them or they'll come back with a mob of similar types and you'll have a fight on your hands.
you wont have facilities to imprison them and its wasted labour anyway.
you'll have to forgive them or hang them.
I think in desperate times corporal punishment will be needed. Hanging certainly deterred crime in the early west here, I’m sure it could work again. I agree with banishment. Might make an enemy that knows your layout. I feel that ways now though. If someone is bad enough to be imprisoned for life, why not just go ahead and get it over with.
Funny we discuss the thread but the original poster seems to be missing. A community formed before the SHTF may work, and I say MAY in big capital letters. A community formed after the SHTF is doomed. You cannot screen, test and know anybody after the event. Some kind of test, may have to or any of the other uncertain platitudes will not work. Morals are taught by society which is mostly founded on religious teaching. Nobody and I mean nobody is born with any morals. Humans are simply animals with the ability to learn and be taught at a higher level. Humans left to them selves, will eat each other.
Governance by committee is subject to "Paralysis by Analysis" or in plane speak --- All Talk - No Action. Every group that plans to succeed, must have a leader to end the debate and make th final decision. I t is fine to have a committee to present idea's and concepts but there must be one person to make the final decision and keep things moving. The only problem with Neegan was he was psychotic. He did get things done and could have pulled the communities together. Before you can have a community, there has to be clear and enforceable structure. Defined leadership, defined Laws. defined penalties for braking laws and an enforcement arm to make sure these structures are maintained. How is the leader going to be chosen? How are grievances settled and by whom and by what method? Too many concepts and details to resolve after a SHTF event. That is the reason i always say family unit, simply all those or at least most of those issues have already been resolved.
Governance by committee is subject to "Paralysis by Analysis" or in plane speak --- All Talk - No Action. Every group that plans to succeed, must have a leader to end the debate and make th final decision. I t is fine to have a committee to present idea's and concepts but there must be one person to make the final decision and keep things moving. The only problem with Neegan was he was psychotic. He did get things done and could have pulled the communities together. Before you can have a community, there has to be clear and enforceable structure. Defined leadership, defined Laws. defined penalties for braking laws and an enforcement arm to make sure these structures are maintained. How is the leader going to be chosen? How are grievances settled and by whom and by what method? Too many concepts and details to resolve after a SHTF event. That is the reason i always say family unit, simply all those or at least most of those issues have already been resolved.
In an ideal world, this would be true. Everyone would work altruistically together for the good of the group as whole, and society would run smoothly. It would be beautiful and simple. It's actually the Marxist ideal of a communist society (after they get done with all the killing of the rich people, of course). But that is an idealist fantasy, and in a post-SHTF world, it will be even further from reality than it is today. And the larger the group, the more moving parts, and the more potential for failure, which is why smaller groups may be better after SHTF, especially initially.
Very well Stated.
I hire people and I know better to trust them before I complete my vetting process. We do extensive reference and background checks, as well as interviewing and even probationary training before a permanent offer is extended, and still people manage to stab us in the back. I don't know how many times we were considering hiring someone until we discovered an extensive criminal history, shady employment record, or drug problem. After SHTF we won't have the benefit of these resources. I certainly will not be trusting strangers.
that's exactly my point, post SHTF it will all be different, not like it is now, you make your choices and take your chances, a bad mistake could be fatal.
Just because we both paid money to the same "prepper farm" pre-SHTF doesn't mean we're not strangers after.
