Are you saying students were failing in the ED major and switched successfully to a science degree?
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Are you saying students were failing in the ED major and switched successfully to a science degree?
I would have to confirm that they completed the degree, but it was my understanding they did.
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Let me clarify. They were failing out of the ED program? Not just changing majors, everyone does that. I'm talking about someone who couldn't handle the class workload in ED but could in a science curriculum?
Some people do better with more objective subjects like math and science than subjective ones, and the way education is taught does have a lot of the subjective side to it. So while it is probably not common, I would believe that it has happened that someone who could not get a degree in education was nevertheless able to pass science courses.
In my mind PPD (pee poor Decisions) does not constitute a tax payer funded emergency. You spend 4 to 6 years in college, go $100,000 to $200,000 deep in debt for a job the a pays $30,000 to $40,000 a year. Now who is the idiot, the teacher or the taxpayer for feeling sorry for these poor decisions. Now change the job tittle, I did all this for a job programming computers, still feel sorry for me? I seriously doubt it. People try to make teaching some noble calling, it is a job, to most of the teachers. That is why they wanted a union and civil service protection, because it really is just a job to the majority. Not some higher calling to preserve humanity.
That's why they should be paid based on their worth. A good teacher is invaluable. A not-so-good teacher? Not so much. The unions haven't helped anything, but neither have the ones complaining that "teachers make too much." It should be based on each ones performance and worth, which would be a lot easier if it were controlled at a state/local level than by the federal government.
When the system makes teachers and school districts accountable, then I will be open to setting proper pay scales. When students have to spend weeks just focusing on being able to pass the standards tests, then something is wrong. When we have some of the highest per capita spending and rank near the bottom of the educational scores, something is wrong. It maybe the liberal way to just dump money on a problem but that has never fixed any problem, just made the people running the problem organization more inefficient. When teachers are measured by their students SAT scores, then come talk to me about proper pay scales. When teachers contend that all teachers should be paid the same, I agree, pay them the dregs wages until they agree to remove all the dregs. Then and only then will the tax payer get what they are paying for. High pay for quality teachers and properly run school districts. Until then, they get what they have aligned with, the dregs. Am I an expert. Maybe - Maybe not but I have attended over 16 schools during my educational career, in different states, different countries and different cities. Out of all those schools, districts, states, and countries --- only four teachers stood out. What does that tell you? It is a job for most and should be treated like any other work place employment. It is not akin to the holy grail. It is not a noble profession, they do not risk their liver to teach. It is job, just that simple.
KateM makes a great point. A really big, huge point. Let me translate:
Let the market decide. Let me use socialists favorite example: Sweden. People think they've implemented socialism successfully.
Well, about 1/2 of schools in Sweden are PRIVATE schools. Sweden uses the voucher system, students can pick which public or private school they want, the schools choose from the applicants, Each school gets the same dollar amount per student in a district. Schools that don't teach don't get students to apply and they close down, private or public. Schools that excel get more applicants and can add more classrooms and can pay better salaries to their teachers and will attract the best teachers.
So let me translate further: COMPETITION. Until we get real competition for education, schooling will continue to get worse independent of how much money you throw at it. The only way I know of to have real competition is the voucher system.
Let the market decide. Let me use socialists favorite example: Sweden. People think they've implemented socialism successfully.
Well, about 1/2 of schools in Sweden are PRIVATE schools. Sweden uses the voucher system, students can pick which public or private school they want, the schools choose from the applicants, Each school gets the same dollar amount per student in a district. Schools that don't teach don't get students to apply and they close down, private or public. Schools that excel get more applicants and can add more classrooms and can pay better salaries to their teachers and will attract the best teachers.
So let me translate further: COMPETITION. Until we get real competition for education, schooling will continue to get worse independent of how much money you throw at it. The only way I know of to have real competition is the voucher system.
@TexasFreedom
I concur 1,000 percent. They want higher pay, prove they are worth it. Voucher works for me.
I concur 1,000 percent. They want higher pay, prove they are worth it. Voucher works for me.
The hard part is to determine the value of the reacher. Reviews? Surveys? Outcomes? Easy to say, hard to get right. Otherwise, I am fine with that idea. We need to get bad teachers out.
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I have never understood how anyone could think tenure is a good thing.
I don't think that's a problem at all. How do you evaluate ANY employee at any job? You have a list of job requirements. Clearly define each piece of what they need to do. It's not really any harder than evaluating any other job in the world.
A challenge would be to get fair evaluations. That's easy: bell curve. Only 10% can get an excellent review and 10% are required to get an insufficient review. And this will mean that some teachers face getting FIRED. Something unheard of in most schools, but welcome to the real world. If a principal wants to defend that he has zero 'insufficient' teachers, he can rank his lowest teacher and take his case to an independent board.
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I like the old saying; "Those that can do, those that can't teach". Most people that become teachers do so because the degree is easy to get, the pay is great, the benifits are excellent, the work is easy and they get a lot of time off.
If they don't like the teaching profession they should get a degree in another field, or better yet go to trade school and get real job.
Most of my working career I had even more time off than a teacher, up to 6 months vacation per year, and made a great salary. All without ever stepping foot in a college.
There are options.
If they don't like the teaching profession they should get a degree in another field, or better yet go to trade school and get real job.
Most of my working career I had even more time off than a teacher, up to 6 months vacation per year, and made a great salary. All without ever stepping foot in a college.
There are options.
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It isn't hard to do. Every company that I ever worked for had annual or semi annual employee reviews.
If an employee doesn't meet expectations they are given the opportunity to improve or they are out the door. Managements choice.
It really is a very simple and effective system. Why should teachers be exempt?
Teaching isn’t a real job? It sounds like you have no respect for any teachers. If you only saw how hard my mother worked! I know that they all don’t work that hard, but a lot do. Yes, we could all get jobs on crab boats and only work a few months a year. [emoji23]
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There are aspects that support the 'not a real job' scenario. Many gov't jobs are not 'real jobs'. Let me propose just two parameters to define a 'real job':
1. Fair market. Overhead 'company' has to function within a competitive marketplace.
2. Rewards/punishments commiserate with job performance (including getting fired).
#1: It needs to be a competitive market, not a monopoly. There is no competition for public schools, no matter how bad the school or the individual teacher does they still get funding. Only when people can vote "NO" for a local school will schooling be a 'real' industry.
#2: Same for teachers, they need to be able to get fired if they fail to perform. Recently a teacher had sex with a student and still kept teaching! If parents are not satisfied with how one school/teacher perform, they should be able to take the 'money' (tax dollars in this case) and switch to another school. If a teacher can't keep enough students in his/her classroom, they are fired! But parents/students have no choice here. So the teacher should face job loss both from the school system as well as from parents. Here is an article that says private industry fires people 3 times more often than gov't jobs: https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/workers-3x-more-likely-get-fired-private-sector-govt . Nobody can tell me gov't workers are any better than private industry. And 0% of schools get 'fired'.
See: http://www.nea.org/home/12661.htm The average teacher nationwide makes $60k. More than the average salary nationwide (lower $50k range?). And that's with a 3 month summer vacation.
Don't get us wrong. There are teachers that should be carried on our shoulders and celebrated, and paid well. But for every excellent teacher, there are a bunch of other teachers who are just working a 'job' and doing the minimum req'd to not get fired, and there is at least 1 teacher that needs to be fired immediately.
And here is a benefit I'd like to give teachers. Just as parents can choose their children's teachers and school, I'd first let the school choose who to accept/reject, AND let the individual teacher choose which students he/she'll accept into the classroom. Just as we are making the point that teachers need to step up and perform, so do parents/children need to step up.
Something I've said before, I think there should be 3 different 'levels' of schools. 1: College bound students (accelerated education programs). 2: Vocational grade level schools. There is nothing wrong with classes teaching kids skills such as plumbing, electrician, mechanic, homemaker, etc. Teach the kids the essentials in life to perform. 3: Generational welfare kids. The parents don't care, the kids don't care. They want free handouts and will never contribute to society. Yes, this is a dismal view, but we all know at least 25% of the population belong in this category. Call this one juvenile jail. And if those kids want better, they can perform and earn entrance into a better school.
The non-union ditch digger is busting his azz too but that does not mean he is entitled to a high salary. He will only keep his job as long as he meets the expected goals. If the pay is so low and the work so hard, why are so many still getting ED degree's? Again as said before, Those that can , do, the rest teach. One of my college instructors was tenured and was the worst instructor I had every had before or since. Job security is a sure path to incompetence. Perform or make room for the better person. Teachers are not to be revered, they are to be paid on real life performance. The real good ones get top dollar, the bottom feeders get fired. Reward the best, fire the rest. I really like the voucher system, that makes it easy to spot the schools with crap teachers, it will be the one with more teachers than students.
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Typically respect has to be earned. It isn't automatically given. No doubt that some, maybe many teachers do work hard within the limited hours and days when they actually go to work. I've even met a few teachers that I have respect for.
Interesting that you mention working on a crab boat. That's actually a great way for a young person to learn about hard work and responsibility.
The first time that I moved to Alaska was at 17. I worked on a commercial gill net and long line salmon boat. Also worked in the woods falling timber. Great money, hard work, real life experiences and no college needed.
I chose to pay the penalty. Not because I can’t afford it but because I don’t need it . I don’t have any insurance on my airplane either. You know why, I don’t have an airplane. I don’t use doctors so why would I need insurance to pay one. When the penalty gets to bothering me , I’ll renounce my citizenship. Me and both my dollars
I have a lot of respect for anyone who works hard. Period.
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I think we all would agree with that statement. But how do you get from respecting someone to paying them more? Again, the nationwide average teacher's salary is $60k, for working 9 months of the year and with excellent retirement and benefits. This is not for great teachers, this is the average teacher which I suspect isn't all that great. How much do you think this average teacher should get paid?
I will respect a teacher that comes in and does their job. I will not revere them or pay them more simply for showing up for work.
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The people that I have no respect for are those that take a job knowing what the pay and benefits are, and then whine and complain about the pay and benefits.
I agree with the last statements about teachers...but keep in mind that the average salary is just that...some places will cost much more to live, and that brings up the average...I doubt that a state average for educators in AL would be anywhere near that, unless you include universities...and I still doubt that average. And universities run all year.
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Doreena, That is why I mentioned 'average'. But I also mentioned the national salary 'average' for all professions being in the low $50k range. Last I saw was $53k-56k. Again, that is less than the average teacher makes.
I didn't say that was salaries in AL. But a teacher in AL on average will still make more than the average worker in all professions there in AL. And again, not bad for a 9 month job.
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Doreena, tell me about it...I started at $6,000 - that was 1975. $600 a month for 10 months. That wasn't a living wage even then, I had to stay at my parents' house. I had a major in math and a minor in secondary education.
The reason it was so low was because I was the wrong color for the public schools, so after trying all summer to find a public school that would hire me (they had openings and no other qualified applicants, but they were not allowed to hire white teachers) I had to get a job at a small rural private school at the last minute. That summer I made money painting houses, which turned out to pay better than teaching.
The reason it was so low was because I was the wrong color for the public schools, so after trying all summer to find a public school that would hire me (they had openings and no other qualified applicants, but they were not allowed to hire white teachers) I had to get a job at a small rural private school at the last minute. That summer I made money painting houses, which turned out to pay better than teaching.
What is that sad? It's simple supply/demand.
@TexasFreedom
I think you missed a step in this two step. The sad part was a white qualified Teacher could not be hired due to a quota to fill a diversity posting. It was not a case of the best qualified but who was the right color. Some call it diversity, I call it discrimination. I did not approve when it was against minorities and and don't approve when it is against whites. I just call it B.S.
I think you missed a step in this two step. The sad part was a white qualified Teacher could not be hired due to a quota to fill a diversity posting. It was not a case of the best qualified but who was the right color. Some call it diversity, I call it discrimination. I did not approve when it was against minorities and and don't approve when it is against whites. I just call it B.S.
