IF an EMP Blast occurs "We're 1 act away from social cataclysm"

[old_anorak]

Too many layers and not enough initiative.

Ain't that the damned truth.

 

[WilliamAshley]

getting the meat to the meat plant will be hard.

tanks and dozers? junkyard magnetic lift on tracks if needed and flatbeds?


Learn a little about WWII rationing. Styrofoam and plastic are reusable they just need to be desanitized. A more efficient system will have you return the packaging to get new stuff, or just bring a knife and make your own cut. Its not how it is packed that matters it is relatively how little bacteria is active on it, spray, boil and consume. Backing meats can be about reducing wait, so use a crate return the crate. Things would not be normal it is about emergency supply early on.

So sure supplies of packing materials may run out that are not critical but this won't remove food availability. It will likely require executive orders to bypass legislation on food safety protocols if required.

Lots of boiling. cooking foods will be difficult without fuel though, which is why mess style soup kitchen type deals is more likely that way large amounts of food can be prepared, because people may have no way to sanitize their food by preparation if they have no electric stoves, and their BBQ's run out of propane or charcoal and lighter fluid, and the trees run out. However I'm guessing there are probably enough trees in a city to provide fuel for heat and cooking for a few days, some trees would even be edible.

Fact is though that human waste produces methane. WWII a lot of concepts were developed on efficiency and rationing. We are way further along in terms of capacity than WWII.

Peace time is not war time. Fact is katrina was not a major threat, it was a relatively low and localized emergency. How many people died from Katrina?

80 billion in damage is relatively "small" compared to what a major EMP could do. 2000 deaths is a drop in the bucket if you consider how many people die in that area every day.
Say 2 million people were effected by Katrina.. with under 2000 dead that is 1 in 1000 people or 0.1% death toll. With an emp you might have 5 or 10 that amount however you probably would not see a greater than 30% short term casualty rate unless major things as mentioned above fail in their safe shutdown and quarantine. I also highly doubt a more than 50% death toll in event of major civil disorder, riots and prolonged food shortage. What you don't understand is the more people that die the less people there are to feed but the infastructure and equipment will still be there. It is the unskilled and unemployed who will be effected, old pensioners, social security dependents, and the unskilled novelty workers in certain service industries. People will adapt though there will be a major demand for skilled labour. There will be food availability, the worse the situation gets the better it gets for people not in the zombie grouping.

Understand that the death rate is about 8 to 1000 currently just normal in the US, that is 8x the katrina death toll. 1% would be about 125% the national average 10% is noticable, but as stated the more dependents that die the more efficiently and economically things will run.

This may sound "cold" but it is.

 

[Kenny Lee]

Oh I am sorry, I misunderstood you, I guess 50% casualties is our goal so the other 50% can eat. Sounds like a good deal to me. Sounds like the other 50% won't be unemployed too because they would be busy stacking up the dead like cordwood and burning the bodies. Yeah a lot of people in the world suck, but I wouldn't consider half of them dying a good thing. It sounds lot like nightmare science fiction scenarios or the Nazi's who euthanized all the undesirables, the cripples, the mentally handicapped, the genetically inferior.

So let me get this straight, under civil unrest I am suppose to head the muster call for reserve mobilization while the world burns and hope my wife and kids are okay? (I actually don't have wife and kids but it is to illustrate a point). In fact many police officers didn't show up for duty during Katrina. It is going to be like the 1977 blackout, took one night before 31 neighborhoods were looted and set aflame...

Yeah, Katrina was a localized event, you really trust the federal government to handle a mass decentralized nation wide catastrophe? Who is going management all the logistics? Who dictates what food goes where when people have no clue what is going on? Think comms has increased since 9/11 as per the recommendations by the 9/11 Commission?

To be honest I think the people in WWII would handle the emp shock much better than the people of today. Most of the skills are gone, many of the root cellars are gone, the mechanical and basics skills are gone.

I really don't want any of this to pass because like I said, I am pretty sure my friends and relatives are screwed.

 

[WilliamAshley]

Definitely,

fact is the government does have established systems for disaster. Sure the event right after will be pretty bad and there are many potential scenarios depending on how widespread it is. The military will want to immediately establish security.

If there is chaos those Fema death camps will be established if there are major side effects to house displaced people, or government staff needed for emergency organization camps. centers would be set up and schools might be used to house children or other facilities like sports stadiums, which would be manned with security if required for government employees or other people who required the social care.

Organized people will of course come together, sure some people will fall through the cracks and criminal elements may try to take advantage of it, but in understanding the risks of foreign occupation or otherwise after the first couple days, looting and rioting will not be any use. Smart people will bury their valuables and other essentials in advance anyway. Some coin hordes from 1000 years ago have survive being buried. You will probably realize most valuables arn't valuable, especially paper ones, shiny ones, or interesting ones. Those are culturally defined definitions of wealth but are only valuable because people think they are. Real valuables are things you need to survive. However, cultural mitigation is a form of social status recognition and an indirect surival tool, but with societial breakdown and environmental change people sober up.

But death toll could vary, but I'm really suprised to think that you would think that America is so debase that people would be unable to organize. They have to.. without government or major corporate controls on major areas, nuclear waste would irradiate the US. The grid would have to be reestablished or some type of backup generation for cooling systems for the plants and offsite... there are other senstive sites also. Nuclear weapons, biological weapons, checmical weapons sites... The US gov won't disapear as stated do some research on "continuity of government."

It ain't going to break down overnight.. now the real risk comes from foreign invasion as a result of a major EMP... or just foreign attacks but I'm not sure anyone would be up for that.. US allies overseas may be jepordized though. Israel may be open season but in reality... America will sober up big time... and I don't think death toll would be that high, people would actually probably be healthier as a result as soon as food supply stabilized. US and Canada, DUMP food out, they garbage it day in and day out.. there is massive food waste. There is no food shortage, they destroy it to fix prices for profit due to quotas and stringent food safety protocols. Countries undergoing famine can't pay for food, its not that food isn't available. Its more profitable to throw it out than give it away.

 

[Trapper]

If the electric infrastructure went down it would take about 3 days and people would be turning on each other. This is especially true in any major city. The gangs would grab what they could. Medications would disappear or spoil. The death toll in the first month would be staggering. The weak and elderly would go quickly. Without machinery it would be a daunting task to dig the mass graves needed. Without them it would start diseases and take out many of the first responders that remain working. Sanitation would be a major concern within a week. Disease and sickness would spread quickly killing the next wave of people. People would move to and along water sources. This would cause contamination further spreading disease. There is only a few days of food in stores. Look at any hurricane or other major storm. Shelves are cleaned out. Most people have maybe a weeks worth of food at home. Without a fridg or freezer most people would loose the majority of food in their homes. At this point panic would set in and people would move from the cities into the countryside. Poaching would be rampant and hunting would last for weeks. In the process people would protect their homes while people come to steal what they can to survive. The scene would get ugly.
People will expect the Govt to come and bail them out like they did during Katrina. The help wont come because what resources that are stored of major events wont begin to cover the need. At least with Katrina the Govt, Red Cross and millions of donations were shipped. Where would these resources come from if it was a national disaster?
I don't think it would be the end of the USA but it would take years for things to fully recover.

 

[old_anorak]

Looks like we may be seeing another situation like we did last summer, there's supposed to be another derecho go through the Midwest today and tonight. It got ugly when the power grid was down last year, wonder how many of those folks who were caught unaware then have what they need now? My guess is that few do.

 

[hightechredneck]

I would be shocked if more than 1% learned anything. Weathers been rough over here too old_anorak. strap it down and hang on hun.

 

[old_anorak]

Yeah, it's supposed to get rough tomorrow and Sunday I think. Did you have much damage from the super storm line that they were predicting to go through the mid west and eastern states?

 

[hightechredneck]

South of us got it the worst. about 2000 families in the immediate area without power but for once it was not us. hard to believe, if it even looks like a storm our power goes out. What I get for being in the banjo playing section of the boonies.

 

[old_anorak]

It's getting gnarly around here at the moment. Glad I'm home and no need to go out.

 

[kcdevildog]

We just went through a nasty storm our selves. Trees down every where.

 

[Uncle Albert]

It would be far worse than anyone could imagine, even if all crucial infrastructure was shield, most major cities only have 3 days worth of food. Imagine Katerina but in all major cities. After three days when no more food arrives it will be medieval and barbaric.

Think of all the meat plants that won't be online, and even if they get online all the computer record systems of debit and credit will be hosed. People would need to write down who owes what, but we all know people are creatures of habit and would be adverse to change. Meat plants would grind to a halt, and how would they keep it all cold and transport it? All the shrink wrap stereofoam machines will be down. All the JIT (just in time) inventory systems would be trashed.

I never thought anyone would die of thirst in America, but that happen in New Orleans, all because people were too dumb to break rules and crappy protocols. Why on earth would anyone ever, ever turn away Wal-mart trucks full of free water when people are dying of thirst is beyond me. I would say, please dump it here, make an impromptu supply cache and we'll make sure it gets to the right people.

How long can police and fire fighters maintain order? Sure some of their comms will be up but there will be mass confusion and civilians would have a hard time contacting them. Highways jammed full of knocked out cars would take ages to unclog. People were eating rotten food out of dumpsters two days after Hurricane Sandy in lower Manhattan. The supermarkets were dumping out trashed frozen dinners and meat, and the Manhattanites without refridgeration ate it with gusto. So many Manhattanites with a kitchen don't use it, they rely on take out food from restaurants. If it doesn't come from a box or can, and requires more than three steps they are screwed!

Say all the Fortune 500 companies have everything EMP shielded, but what about all the mid-sized companies with no paper records or mom and pop shops? It might sound like a good thing to go back to the land, but lots of people invested years,and years of hard work in a company to make a comfortable living only to have it all taken away in and instant.

Yeah, I am moving away to a less densely populated area where I can be more self sufficient, but I am under no illusion should things get switched off most of my friends and family won't make it, or might get hurt.

Man, you really got into that. When I first read this I didn't have time to follow it all the way through. Yes, dependent people will die by the millions. Being an old fool like I am, I'm looking at a much softer generation than I was brought up in. A dependent generation. The sad part is no one wants to listen to outdated family "Who live in the past". But that's all right, I'll be there when they need me. And I'll continue to educate myself on what it will take to survive.

 

[sharkbait]

A country wide EMP would be one of the worst scenarios I could imagine.Worse than getting nuked.I believe the death toll would be well past 50% with the elderly and medically dependents being the first major wave.The second wave would be the weak and unprepared along with those who are killed by roving unorganized looters taking by force.Third would be when medications run out and disease sets in from the unburied and sanitation.By then,anyone left will be the ones to deal with the leftovers.

The forest would be picked clean by then,the stores shelves wiped out,and the waters would be fished out (thats if waters are even clean enough to support life).The big power companies only have so many replacement transformers and so many miles of wire that would only go to the only the most critical areas needed,and it would take years to manufacture these needed supplies.But then,who's gonna fix it or manufacture?People are not going to go to work when they have to stick around the home protecting their families,looking for food/or protecting it,getting clean water,etc,etc just to survive the day.

Katrina set a fine example with many of the police leaving their duty,gangs chasing cops away and i'll never forget the pic of the looter in chest high water wading along with a big screen tv held over his head still new in the box.Why would we think any different of our military?If we are in a nation wide meltdown of society,many,many would leave their post to be with their families.I lay little hope on the guv coming to save us from ourselves as they will be in the same boat we are.Even if they have EMP hardened equipment and vehicles,they will still be running on borrowed time as fuels and parts run out.

I often hear people say "an EMP will knock us back 150/200 years" but I fear it will be much farther back then that,more like the stone ages.Folks 150 years ago,life as it was,was all they knew and they had basic man powered ways of farming and manufacturing that today's lax society couldn't master,they were starting to discover modern medicines while we'll be losing ours (don't forget,the toughest Marine can die from an infected ingrown toenail without our modern meds).These people lived off of what they needed,they worked hard and it worked,today however,most live off of wants and luxuries or ride the system and that alone would set us back farther than 150 years.Many that survive would just be blood thirsty animals compared to the folks they once were.

Not sure if it's been mentioned,but for a good read on how life "could" be after an EMP,check out the book "One second after"

 

[jimLE]

deffently good point and very very true.a emp will/could be worse then a economic collapse of any kind and degree.a emp will set us back before the telegraph.the emp of 1859 took out telegraph lines keys and the bateries for them to oparate.and the telegraphers were able to down at the ones that still worked.. and disconnect the battires from the keys and still use the keys to send messages for a while afterwards..

 

[Uncle Albert]

A country wide EMP would be one of the worst scenarios I could imagine.Worse than getting nuked.I believe the death toll would be well past 50% with the elderly and medically dependents being the first major wave.The second wave would be the weak and unprepared along with those who are killed by roving unorganized looters taking by force.Third would be when medications run out and disease sets in from the unburied and sanitation.By then,anyone left will be the ones to deal with the leftovers.

The forest would be picked clean by then,the stores shelves wiped out,and the waters would be fished out (thats if waters are even clean enough to support life).The big power companies only have so many replacement transformers and so many miles of wire that would only go to the only the most critical areas needed,and it would take years to manufacture these needed supplies.But then,who's gonna fix it or manufacture?People are not going to go to work when they have to stick around the home protecting their families,looking for food/or protecting it,getting clean water,etc,etc just to survive the day.

Katrina set a fine example with many of the police leaving their duty,gangs chasing cops away and i'll never forget the pic of the looter in chest high water wading along with a big screen tv held over his head still new in the box.Why would we think any different of our military?If we are in a nation wide meltdown of society,many,many would leave their post to be with their families.I lay little hope on the guv coming to save us from ourselves as they will be in the same boat we are.Even if they have EMP hardened equipment and vehicles,they will still be running on borrowed time as fuels and parts run out.

I often hear people say "an EMP will knock us back 150/200 years" but I fear it will be much farther back then that,more like the stone ages.Folks 150 years ago,life as it was,was all they knew and they had basic man powered ways of farming and manufacturing that today's lax society couldn't master,they were starting to discover modern medicines while we'll be losing ours (don't forget,the toughest Marine can die from an infected ingrown toenail without our modern meds).These people lived off of what they needed,they worked hard and it worked,today however,most live off of wants and luxuries or ride the system and that alone would set us back farther than 150 years.Many that survive would just be blood thirsty animals compared to the folks they once were.

Not sure if it's been mentioned,but for a good read on how life "could" be after an EMP,check out the book "One second after"

Thank you for this reply. Opens the mind up and I'm going to try to get a look at that book. Personally, I plan on being one of the few left standing. I've got some knowledge and some grit left. Also a whole lot of compassion for my fellow man. If I don't make it, it's because I took in too many people who weren't prepared. My children in Calif. for instance are very successful professionals but if I asked them to feed the chickens they wouldn't know how to do it.