Limestone County teachers learn how to use batons, pepper spray...

[Supervisor42]

But, insisting that 'guns are the answer' and other self defense tools are 'ridiculous' is... well... ridiculous.

The best we can do is support the masses as best we can... which includes helping them prepare to whatever level of response they're willing to execute.
I have no problem with the 'proficient' being armed, but many have no interest in becoming proficient. Furthermore, many simply refuse to be armed. And, these 'protectors' must be afforded the means to protect themselves and those for whom they're responsible.

Self defense is absolutely necessary... 'guns or nothing' is absolutely 'ridiculous'.

Bob

I'll join Bob's side.
Anything to help them not be defenseless.
Right now they have nothing.
If none of them want to go thru the hassle of training and CCW, a law allowing them to do so would make no difference other than make a perp wonder.
The small portable cans of OC spray are useless past 10 feet and limited effective if closer.
You can't just een a fire and put it out.
I think there should be introduced: "The OC MAGNUM". Think fire extinguisher. Something that would blast a wall 20 feet away with OC.
Make it the good gooey sticky kind too!
Don't make me invent stuff, because I will!

I'll compromise. Pepper spray, strobe lights, batons, handguns; give them everything!

 

[rbbeers]

I'm no "heavyweight" on this Forum, and I've NEVER been an LEO, BUT I do know human nature, and these Limestone County Teachers are doing a bunch of "feel good" exercise that is only going to give them a false sense of confidence that will most likely get them, and the kids they are "protecting" killed if they ever face the same situation, again.

I disagree.

These and other such efforts will save lives.

Bob

 

[rbbeers]

I'll join Bob's side.
Anything to help them not be defenseless.
Right now they have nothing.
If none of them want to go thru the hassle of training and CCW, a law allowing them to do so would make no difference other than make a perp wonder.
The small portable cans of OC spray are useless past 10 feet and limited effective if closer.
You can't just een a fire and put it out.
I think there should be introduced: "The OC MAGNUM". Think fire extinguisher. Something that would blast a wall 20 feet away with OC.
Make it the good gooey sticky kind too!
Don't make me invent stuff, because I will!

I'll compromise. Pepper spray, strobe lights, batons, handguns; give them everything!

Two thumbs up!

Bob

 

[Ten ese]

Again, you have voiced your disagreement, with no supporting evidence.

If there is a valid demonstration of how this type of program HAS ALREADY BEEN SHOWN TO WORK, let's see it.

 

[Dutchboy]

I'm out of marbles!

 

[rbbeers]

Again, you have voiced your disagreement, with no supporting evidence.

If there is a valid demonstration of how this type of program HAS ALREADY BEEN SHOWN TO WORK, let's see it.

The programs of which I'm aware were started within the past two years.

As of yet, the results are unknown... and I hope they stay that way.

Do you?

Bob

 

[rbbeers]

I'm out of marbles!

Your marbles don't matter... the safety of our kids does.

Bob

 

[Dutchboy]

Sir yes Sir Bob!

 

[Supervisor42]

Screw batons and strobe lights, here in Marshall county they are getting guns:
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/02/rep_will_ainsworth_rounds_up_s.html

We need some humor here.
Overheard at a Marshall County school a year from now:
"Gee coach, are you really happy to see me, or is that your 1911 in your gym-shorts?"
:lol:

 

[Dutchboy]

It looks like rbbeers, aka Bob has taken down his avatar or taken his marbles and gone home. Makes ya wonder if you can post or voice an opposing opinion without hurting someone's feelings!

So much for honest debate or discussion!

 

[havasu]

Pretty sad. I liked bob but obviously he has the same ideology as many in the San Francisco area. You either listen to him, do as he says, or he will take his marbles and go home. A way left winger I presume?

Bob, get back here. Defend your thoughts, or at least explain why your views are more important than the others posting in this debate.

 

[Dutchboy]

My intent was not to drive him away, however, many of my views are based on my LE experience which I am not ashamed to voice. I also have to accept the fact that there are others out there who do not maintain my beliefs or opinions, based on their own experiences. Throwing all of these thoughts and opinions into the pot, makes for healthy and stimulating conversation and or debate and who knows, maybe even a solution!

Come on back Bob, we ain't mad at ya!

 

[havasu]

It's kinds hard to change our mindsets after we have multiple decades of proven methods, isn't it Dutchboy?

 

[Dutchboy]

Yes my friend, as we are truly a unique breed! It's like they say, "Once a Cop, always a Cop"!

 

[rbbeers]

Defend your thoughts...

Seriously?!?!

I have to defend that some defense is better than NO defense?!?!?!

That's nonsense... and why I won't waste my time here any more.

 

[havasu]

Bob, so far you have mentioned leaving 3 times. I just don't understand it. Our views are no less or more important than yours are. I'm guessing we struck a nerve and for this I apologize. It just seems like every other debate with a "free spirit liberal" they want to do the same thing when we replace rumors and innuendos with cold, hard facts. As a matter of fact, this is exactly why they built safe rooms with teddy bears in all the California college campuses.

 

[rbbeers]

Our views are no less or more important than yours...

Please feel free to explain your position to forum readers that NO defense is better than SOME defense... as one MUST have a gun, since all other self defense tools are virtually worthless.

I have no desire to participate in such a 'discussion'.

 

[Ten ese]

Bob, so far you have mentioned leaving 3 times. I just don't understand it. Our views are no less or more important than yours are. I'm guessing we struck a nerve and for this I apologize. It just seems like every other debate with a "free spirit liberal" they want to do the same thing when we replace rumors and innuendos with cold, hard facts. As a matter of fact, this is exactly why they built safe rooms with teddy bears in all the California college campuses.

Threatening to leave is one of the methods of taking no responsibility, or being unable to confront a situation.

The programs of which I'm aware were started within the past two years.

As of yet, the results are unknown... and I hope they stay that way.

So we are to abandon a tried and true method of defense against firearms attacks, in deference to an untried, untested method of defense against firearms assaults, AND wager our school children's lives in the process. This is "better" than "NO GUN ZONE" signage?

BTW - YOU are the one that made it an "A" or "B" choice issue. None of us said it had to be "guns" or "nothing" as a choice. We merely pointed out that guns were the demonstrated method that WORKS.

If we have a combination of ALL possible defense equipment, based on who is willing to get trained for what, then we have a better, if not ideal program than what is currently being used. However, the FIREARMS trained staff are still going to be more effective at stopping a killing spree.

THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS ELIMINATING THE "SOFT TARGET" DESIGNATION OF SCHOOLS IN THE FIRST PLACE, by repealing the STUPID legislation that was instituted in 1990, making Schools "GUN FREE ZONES." It was an obvious libtard policy of abject failure, that has unnecessarily cost this nation hundreds of lives.

 

[havasu]

Please feel free to explain your position to forum readers that NO defense is better than SOME defense... as one MUST have a gun, since all other self defense tools are virtually worthless.

I have no desire to participate in such a 'discussion'.

In my honest opinion, doing this only provides a false sense of security....a feel good approach only. They just interviewed Charlie Beck, chief of the LAPD a few minutes ago. He said nothing short of having armed security on campuses will stop the violence.

Lets go back to the teachers carrying that OC spray, which you believe is the weapon of all weapons. Which teacher is going to confront a lunatic holding an AR-15, or an AK 47, or a Glock 22 for that matter, and attempt to spray him in the eyes with their can of OC?

You need to fight fire with fire, plain and simple.

So you have left this forum because people don't agree with your thinking. Please remember, this is a forum based on firearms, not pink puppies and safe zones for our liberals. This is a gun forum.

 

[Supervisor42]

Please feel free to explain your position to forum readers that NO defense is better than SOME defense... as one MUST have a gun, since all other self defense tools are virtually worthless.

I have no desire to participate in such a 'discussion'.

I'll take up the gauntlet.
Since I don't live very far from Limestone county, I may be able to shed some light on this.
Before 2016 the only defense these people had was to hurl textbooks at a shooter. Since everything is digital and "online" now, not even those.
Limestone County is the butt of a lot of jokes as being one of the poorest among north-Alabama counties and populated by near-neanderthal people.
The system they put in place is far better than their peers have (and that made them mad).
Even if you only consider the lockbox, (that does not contain a G22 chocked full of 22 .40S&W hollow-points) which sends an alarm to all of the classrooms and LE;
that in itself is a huge step forward to mitigate a crisis.
While that lockbox may not contain a handgun, it has something, ANYTHING, better than nothing.
For those that sell short even what a bright strobe-light can do to affect your ability to shoot, I'll volunteer to show you.
They have that.
While I personally think that OC is ineffective at distance, it is far better than a digital textbook.
The baton. If they distract the BG with the first two enough to put an ass-whooping on him, pity that bastard! I've seen what they can do.
For this backward county to realize the defenselessness that the federal law put them in and to act on it in 2016 (when nothing was going on), put a big black eye on the other effluent, 'erudite' counties.
For that, I applaud them.
Allowing teachers to be armed, and if none will, offers zero defense.
Limestone County at least has something in every room
Best case scenario for us: 25% of teachers decide to run the gauntlet and CCW. What are the odds that the shooter bursts into a classroom that is unarmed? How many people can he slaughter with impunity before another person hears the shots and comes to the rescue?

[donning asbestos underware]
Flame away:wait:.

 

[havasu]

Ya know, there is something to that big ol' canister of bear spray. Actually, a can of 15' wasp spray would probably at least be an effective took, and as you said, much better than throwing books. Absent guns, do they have lockable classrooms? A way to barricade rooms? Two way radio communication to all teachers in all areas? As you said, anything is better than nothing.

If I was a parent of that school, I would make sure there was a small, lockable box installed in every classroom. Inside it would be a collapsible baton, a big ol' can of OC or bear spray, fully charged radios, and remote control panic alarms.

This is way better than as you say, "throwing books", but would be at least something.

Lastly, I know there are thousands of retired officers who still remain proficient with handguns. I would encourage all school districts to reach out to these retirees, such as myself, who would love to be welcomed into that school.

 

[Supervisor42]

Ya know, there is something to that big ol' canister of bear spray. Actually, a can of 15' wasp spray would probably at least be an effective took, and as you said, much better than throwing books. Absent guns, do they have lockable classrooms? A way to barricade rooms? Two way radio communication to all teachers in all areas? As you said, anything is better than nothing.

If I was a parent of that school, I would make sure there was a small, lockable box installed in every classroom. Inside it would be a collapsible baton, a big ol' can of OC or bear spray, fully charged radios, and remote control panic alarms.

This is way better than as you say, "throwing books", but would be at least something.

Lastly, I know there are thousands of retired officers who still remain proficient with handguns. I would encourage all school districts to reach out to these retirees, such as myself, who would love to be welcomed into that school.

Excellent points!
The lockboxes that they already have functions as a panic alarm. The minute it is opened it signals all the other boxes and LE.
When a Lawrence County teacher opens a lock box, the central office and police immediately know "which room".
Scratch that off the list. (trying to argue here).
Radios might be helpful but I can tell you that there will be 12 people talking on it at once if there is an 'event', rendering it useless.
By the time the radio traffic (screaming) dies down, the event would be over. Scratch that. (can I argue or what?)
All classrooms lock. The doors are solid. Unless you shotgun the lock you're not getting in. Already barricaded.
Just ask the guy that is tardy.
No choice butt to go to the office. (don't ask me how I know).

Retired LE and others are already being summoned. The problem is trying to get bureaucrats to even come up with minimum-wage to pay them.

BTW, I lied in a previous post. My wife recently retired from 30 years of teaching and I have been in a classroom each year for the last 25.

 

[Dutchboy]

Can we be real here folks and stop with the "feel good" approaches to "deadly force".

While I can appreciate this notion that "something is better than nothing", we are talking apples & oranges here, and the sooner you understand that the better and more effective the approach and or solution can be realized!

1. OC is fine within the classroom or on ones person, but is not and I repeat, is not on par with a firearm from any type of distance, as referenced by Supervisor, post # 50.

2. This is also true and or correct for batons, ie, Manodocks, PR-24's, expandable batons, riot batons, etc. These are not on par with firearms.

3. Why not establish an outer or perimeter fence around the campus, be it chain link or what have you, so as to create a funnel point, as in airports or as referenced by havasu, post # 29.

4. There would and should be only one entrance and exit in and out of the facility. Other doors would be used for emergency exit only and armed with alarms if accessed or used.

5. Arm Officers as well as metal detectors would be positioned at the main funnel point or entrance.

6. Everyone including students, teachers, administrators and visitors would be required to enter and exit to and from the main funnel point.

While not meant to demean or lesson anyone's post on here, we are simply fooling ourselves into thinking that batons and OC are effective defensive weapons, instruments and or tools against firearms!
These are close quarter defensive weapons and "not on par with someone with a firearm"!

 

[havasu]

Actually, we all have good points. Getting armed teachers/hired guards is going to be time consuming. The box with these additional tools could be installed tomorrow at every campus in America. The redesigning of schools across America would obviously be cost prohibitive, but why not design future schools in a manner that would accommodate extra security when afforded?

 

[Dutchboy]

Let's hope the robots that scan these forums allow our school administrators and security heads to absorb this wealth of information and develop effective solutions to this problem!

 

[Supervisor42]

3. Why not establish an outer or perimeter fence around the campus, be it chain link or what have you, so as to create a funnel point, as in airports or as referenced by havasu, post # 29.

4. There would and should be only one entrance and exit in and out of the facility. Other doors would be used for emergency exit only and armed with alarms if accessed or used.

Now we're getting somewhere!
Clearly you haven't been to 'school' lately! (sounding combative)
The above was instituted years ago.
Yeah, you can walk right in the front door; where the front office is. If you don't stop and sign in you'll be tackled quickly. (probably the first that he shot)
Between classes, the side doors are open, manned by a teacher. All other's are exit-only and alarmed. Have been for years.

we are simply fooling ourselves into thinking that batons and OC are effective defensive weapons, instruments and or tools against firearms!
These are close quarter defensive weapons and "not on par with someone with a firearm"!

Nobody here argues that they are a better or equal response than "a good guy with a gun".
(see post #3)
The thread is about even backward Alabamians have some defense.
Most schools still have nothing.
NOTHING!
Edit: Sorry, I lied. They have this stupid F***ing sign:

Better than OC and batons?
Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[havasu]

Looking back, I believe if Bob would have explained the situation as you have Sup, and not explained as either an A or B only answer, he may have not become frustrated. This dialog is awesome. We are taking a problem and trying to solve it.

 

[Dutchboy]

Supervisor, what I noted above is being implemented by a my school district in New Jersey and has been for several years now. I am not suggesting anything new, just something that is being implemented and maintained.

This "something is better than nothing", (apples & oranges) meaning batons and OC is simply foolish and should not even be up for discussion, as they are not effective deterrents against firearms!

 

[Supervisor42]

This dialog is awesome. We are taking a problem and trying to solve it.

Watch this.

This "something is better than nothing", meaning batons and OC is simply foolish and should not even be up for discussion, as they are not effective deterrents against firearms!

Finally we agree!
Waaay ahead of you.

A little peek behind the scenes (forgive language):

I believe that OC is far too mild for what teachers need.
I think it's far too "kind".
Those also have to be portable enough for an officer/LE to carry all day.
Teachers don't need that luxury. It's hanging on the wall.
The weak link with OC is that it's major impact is to the eyes. BG's frequently wear large sunglasses to avoid positive identification. This renders OC almost useless.
Since I have made my living working on equipment in areas that have stuff much nastier than that, why limit the power of a teacher's "chemical weapon" if it's all they have?
I think that OC was picked because it was the first thing they tried and it worked on people with open eyes.
We've all have gotten a whiff of something that "took our breath away".
I've been around lots of **** that will "take your breath away, bad" (read, incapacitate).
I believe that a respiratory irritant, soaked into the perp's clothes, that causes instant and uncontrollable coughing, will be the weapon of choice. (don't ask me how I know):vomit:
I may start a separate thread because we happen to have the 'brightest of the bright' in our midst.
We can tap into that.
The **** flying out of that 5-lb canister should be something just shy of a .40 round in effectiveness.
And I have been around some seriously nasty ****, so I know it's out there.
Remember, we're doing them a favor by not pumping slugs into them.
But we can take them down on the spot.

Super.
p.s. ...Just one that jumps into my mind:

"Personal protective equipment such as rubber or PVC gloves, protective eye goggles, and chemical-resistant clothing and shoes are used to minimize risks when handling butyric acid.

Inhalation of butyric acid may result in soreness of throat, coughing, a burning sensation, and laboured breathing.

Not good enough.

 

[Dutchboy]

Gotta admit, this is turning out to be a great discussion.

Kudos to Bob..........see what you started man, which is all the more reason to jump back in!