Roving Gangs - Counter Tactics?

[Gazrok]

No doubt, when it comes to isolation, nobody has it over the Aussies, hehe....

 

[saalian]

Those living on Tristan da Cunha might have an advantage

 

[Maverick]

I have 1 driveway in, at the gate I have a 5'x8' ft cattle grid, the trench under the grid is 4.5 ft, I can take the tractor down at the gate and pick the grid up and bring it back to the house leaving the only access by foot

 

[lonewolf]

A friend , in need........is a friend , indeed.............................depends on where the commas are !

a friend in need is.................a pain in the backside!!

 

[Gazrok]

Nice idea with the cattle grate.

 

[Snowflake]

It's a firm belief of mine, that roaming gangs will (after a SHTF event) be the primary threat faced by survivors. The vast percentage are likely to be opportunists, and those can be dealt with in lots of ways, but there are likely to be some that have brains behind them too.

Some of the specific challenges.

1. Large number of armed individuals.
2. Possibly monitoring communications channels.
3. Likely possess vehicles.
4. Well-provisioned.
5. Used to working together.
6. Likely a bit of berserker types here.

So, aside from the obvious (i.e. large armed force of your own or trying to remain undetected), what kinds of tactics have you devised to counter this threat?

______________________________

Things I've come up with.

1. Ruining the paths leading to your place (at least during the chaos period). (fell trees over roads, use other vehicles, dig ditches, etc.) Do this far enough away so they never even see your place (and can't get vehicles there without making a LOT of noise and effort to clear).

2. ****y traps that make a lot of noise and announce there is an intruder. This is a whole other threat all its own, but things to let you know someone is closing in.

3. ****y traps that cause death or harm. While I'd feel bad if these got innocents, during the chaos period, just too risky to have visitors. Both in the outer perimeter and path areas, as well as the outskirts of the property.

4. Scouts, folks who go out on patrol not to engage any enemy, but to report back to the base with intel (and warning).

5. Having a redoubt with supplies (a very hidden place where you can flee to if the group is too large, to then come back in and reclaim, or rebuild when they move on). Attacking from the redoubt will include completely sabotaging any vehicles of the bandits, with complete hit and run tactics until at a manageable number.

6. Large fields of fire, and hardened positions for sentries (so if they approach, they do so over open-ground and where they can be easily shot from a distance). Hardened positions made using cinder blocks (filled with rebar and concrete). Built after the SHTF with stockpiled materials. (or before SHTF, and disguised as something else, like planters, etc., which is my plan.) That way, just dig out the plants, and presto! Pillbox!

7. Posts in the ground every 3' in front of fences, to prevent vehicles from driving into fences to knock them down. (just large wooden fence poles, sunk in to make a vehicle barrier....can get the supplies before hand, then put in after a SHTF event). We always have spares of these for repair anyhow, so this is just having MORE of them.

8. Nightvision. Lots of ways to cheaply keep batteries charged (especially with FL sun). Nightvision will be a big plus (even if only 1st generation). I've done simulated night combat before, and it is simple, the side that has it, if the others don't....wins.

9. If I do have to leave, I plan to leave some goodies behind, but that are poisoned. (mostly booze and the most appealing foodstuffs). Depending on the desired tactics, could be either fast acting or slow acting poisons. Unless time is pressing, the slower acting (matter of days) one is my preference (both are lethal). Long enough to thwart any taste-tester moves by an overly clever bandit, and to spread more throughout their force, but quick enough to get back in soon. The cleanup will suck, and any bandits not partaking may either fight (or flee to return later), but we'd simply assess the situation as needed.

10. Initially trying to establish a dialogue, if they seem willing to do so (and seem too numerous or costly to fight). My usual method for communicating with strangers post SHTF will be this. A remote-controlled truck is sent out, with a two-way radio in the back. Sent to the stranger to use for conversation. I'll try to convince them that leaving us here, to have constant supplies, is a better option, and that for protection from them and other gangs (as now we are a vested interest), we'll pay tribute in what we have to offer (with ground rules). Failing this, we fight anyhow, rather than die on our knees, and enact a scorched earth approach. We'll make this willingness very clear during the negotiations.

That's all good, I'm gona take the night vision and poison food on board.

 

[Snowflake]

Buy lots of bear spray. It makes it too difficult and costly for them to continue what ever action they are trying. You can debilitate an entire group of 30+ people with one good burst of bear spray. I'm speaking from experience. In Chad and here state side bear spray saved our lives. We had a guy holding 3 children hostage, one good dose of spray and he surrendered, yes we got the kids too but they lived..

How longs the best before date on bear spray?

 

[Maverick]

Nice idea with the cattle grate.

It was never meant to keep people out but the cattle in but if things got bad enough, the grid will be pulled, I have a nice 308 sighted in at property edge 420yrds open field along the road, heavily forested to my east, north and south with a 70yrd fire break between house and forest, if the grid is pulled, its on foot only, if they chose to take the forested way then they got my dogs to contend with (3 rottweilers) the property is theirs, they do a good job keeping the hunters, cougars and coyotes off the property the wife has her 3 paps (useless expensive noise makers) but her doberman is with her always, I'm somewhat in good condition but I will not turn my place into a fortress, I have to keep a balance of everyday living and hypotheticals

 

[Gazrok]

I hear you. I have two good sized dogs that will be excellent for early warning and intimidation, but also 4 little noisemakers (that are at least good alarms). I would never have an actual cattle grate (because we have horses, and horses are rather dumb sometimes), but the idea of a removable piece like that is pretty cool. I'm closed in by trees 3/4 of the way around, so no vehicles those ways, but yeah, a bit of open ground for them to cross before getting to the house, so not so fun for intruders.

 

[Roninsensei]

How longs the best before date on bear spray?

You usually get a couple of years.

 

[Snowflake]

You usually get a couple of years.

Thx for that, Might get some online....sounds better than pepper spray and would be good for my kid, would have to watch wind direction tho.

 

[Hippophibia]

I need a bugout location, am on the edge of a small town/suburb that is integrated into large built-up area.
For sure the hungry hordes will be coming and eventually form into bandit groups.

I am thinking need all food stores buried in a few locations in garden and major woodland area 2 houses away. Will soon be digging in a bunker.
It will be a constant battle of abandoning one's property and then retaking it - my wife hates the idea. I am expecting that within 2-3 months majority of the neighborhood residents will have moved on looking for greener pastures or gone to some sort of gov refugee shelter if there is still a government. Major pain would be to rebuild veggie and herb gardens, I don't think one plant will be left and protecting livestock like rabbits and chickens would be near impossible unless placed in an underground storage area that is well hidden.

 

[realisticdude]

Yes...................you need a bug-out location.

 

[Gazrok]

Easier said than done, if you aren't already in it. Most of the time, a BOL just isn't financially realistic. I mean sure, if you want to live like a hermit in the woods, that is free...but otherwise, probably best to assume the above...if in a city or suburbs. Make the most of what you have, and where you are.

 

[psalm 7]

I still think a urban prepper should have enough prepps to stay put keep a low profile and waite out the riots and what ever follows then come out scavenge whats left and bug out to a location . If possible you could make this a rondeveou point for others you care about . I'v never lived in a urban area other than short trips that were work related . I still put some thought into this incase I were to get caught away from home .

 

[Gazrok]

I'm pretty sure that any SHTF event whether TEOTWAWKI or just a short-term one, I'm likely going to be about 40 miles away at work (in an urban area). It's funny, but at home, we're out of even the blast range of a nuke hitting Tampa. But, at work, both my wife and I are going to be toast, or at least get a good blast of radiation. Note to self, add potassium iodide tablets to both of our wallets.

 

[Maverick]

I'm pretty sure that any SHTF event whether TEOTWAWKI or just a short-term one, I'm likely going to be about 40 miles away at work (in an urban area). It's funny, but at home, we're out of even the blast range of a nuke hitting Tampa. But, at work, both my wife and I are going to be toast, or at least get a good blast of radiation. Note to self, add potassium iodide tablets to both of our wallets.

though potassium iodide only protects against radioactive iodine, besides, if a 20mt hit and your 5 to 10 miles away I think radioactive iodine would be the least of my worries given you would be in an area exceeding 5lbs psi

 

[psalm 7]

But if it wern't nukes . More like Civil unrest lawlessness over public or political/financial , terrorist or invaision with help from within . Nukes are returning to the top of the list like the cargo ship found in the Panama canal with mid range missiles (Scuds I think) headed to some central Americian country and other World events . But I'm thinking more of a scene where its like a house to house combat zone .

 

[Gazrok]

though potassium iodide only protects against radioactive iodine, besides, if a 20mt hit and your 5 to 10 miles away I think radioactive iodine would be the least of my worries given you would be in an area exceeding 5lbs psi

20 megatons? Nobody is using anything even remotely that size anymore. The average modern nuke used by the US or USSR (and by proxy, the Chinese) is less than a megaton. Even the multi-warhead missiles (which are now drastically reduced in number of warheads), are more for thwarting countermeasures vs. destructive power. The most commonly deployed US missile is the LGM-30 Minuteman, with 3 warheads in each, at 300-500 kilotons each. The Soviet ones pack a little more punch, averaging 500kt, with the mobile ones (RT-2PM Topal) at 800kt (but one warhead). China is at 1mt (DF-31) for the one warhead variant, or 3 150kt warheads.

Granted, when I was growing up, 5-10 megatons was kind of the norm (and with 10 warheads in a missile!), but the SALT I, SALT II, START I and START II treaties changed all that.

We're pretty safe at our house until about a 7 megaton or higher hit on Tampa. Assuming the powers pull out some of the big boys from moth balls...

 

[Maverick]

china CSS4 icbm 4mt soviet SS-18 icbm 25mt both listed as active in janes, russia is said to be building a more powerful ICBM exceeding the ss-18 in the range of 30-40mt by 2018, the mt is not dead in fact the US has several silo launch ICBMs and gravity fall in the mt range

 

[Gazrok]

There aren't a whole lot of them though (the 25mt ones), and you can bet they'll be targeted first by the BMDS (Ballistic Missile Defense System). As for gravity bombs, I'm not too worried about those here in FL. We do have some mt bombs though too, and as you said some of the bigger boys, but the vast majority are of a much smaller variety.

russia is said to be building a more powerful ICBM exceeding the ss-18 in the range of 30-40mt by 2018

I believe that technically, the treaties are history now, so either side could...just don't really see why either would commit the resources to it. After all, Russia has been worse than us in letting existing stockpiles just deteriorate, so chances are, a good deal of them wouldn't even make it out of the silos or launchers.

I get it though, we grew up (well, I did), in an age where getting nuked was a VERY real possibility, and from all we were told, a nuclear war was game over for us as a species. Looking at the real numbers now though, (and the way certain places have recovered in WAY less time than imagined), I don't think that is an accurate view at all anymore. No doubt it would be catastrophic and completely change the world, but I don't think it would end us as a species anymore.

 

[Maverick]

I just wish the nukes would go the way of the dodo regardless of size! the cold war never really ended targets have always remained the same, the only thing that has changed is the strategy in which global dominance is played. Sad!

 

[Gazrok]

True, but in essence, the idea of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction for you pre-Cold War folks), is basically what keeps the major world powers from going to all out war between themselves. Instead, t hey hash out their differences in smaller, regional conflicts with conventional weapons and by supporting the party in line with their interests.

 

[Maverick]

Today I don't think people (n korea, china, iran to name a few) really care about MAD unlike the cold war era when we had a since of check and balances

 

[Gazrok]

For 2 of the 3 (China is exempt), MAD isn't an issue, just their own destruction, as they can't hit back with the assured destruction. Maybe SAD (Self Assured Destruction) is a better term for them?

 

[Paladin]

Wow, man. Good thread. It's a deep one and a toughy too. I think this is somethign that each person will have to think of in terms of their own situation. You can imagine that someone in the inner city will have more to deal with like this than some who live way out in the sticks.

It looks like you've given it quite a bit of thought and have some really good ideas... The only thing that comes to mind that you didn't mention is team members for an ambush. It goes along with the scouting and some other items you mentioned, but it is to deal with them swiftly and harshly. Of course not all "Wanderers" can be dealt with like this, but if you are in comms with neighboring camps, and they have been in a battle, the survivors may be able to alert you, in which case, ambushing them as far from your base camp as possible would be a good idea. I think it'd be human anture to want to be as close to base camp as possible, but then you run the risk of them overrunning you and being so close to camp that your team's survivors can't get out. Even this has to be thought of in fluid manner though, since you may need to be close to ammo supplies and other kit that isn't on your defenders' persons... This is the problem/blessing with tactical situations, IMHO. You have to be able to adapt to situations that you never knew to plan for, adn yet when you know that, it keeps you thinking and teaching your team to adapt and overcome as many oddball things as they can.

 

[Paladin]

It's a firm belief of mine, that roaming gangs will (after a SHTF event) be the primary threat faced by survivors. The vast percentage are likely to be opportunists, and those can be dealt with in lots of ways, but there are likely to be some that have brains behind them too.

Some of the specific challenges.ly monitoring communications channels.
3. Likely possess vehicles.
4. Well-provisioned.
5. Used to working together.
6. Likely a bit of berserker types here.

So, aside from the obvious (i.e. large armed force of your own or trying to remain undetected), what kinds of tactics have you devised to counter this threat?

______________________________

Things I've come up with.

1. Ruining the paths leading to your place (at least during the chaos period). (fell trees over roads, use other vehicles, dig ditches, etc.) Do this far enough away so they never even see your place (and can't get vehicles there without making a LOT of noise and effort to clear).

2. ****y traps that make a lot of noise and announce there is an intruder. This is a whole other threat all its own, but things to let you know someone is closing in.

3. ****y traps that cause death or harm. While I'd feel bad if these got innocents, during the chaos period, just too risky to have visitors. Both in the outer perimeter and path areas, as well as the outskirts of the property.

4. Scouts, folks who go out on patrol not to engage any enemy, but to report back to the base with intel (and warning).

5. Having a redoubt with supplies (a very hidden place where you can flee to if the group is too large, to then come back in and reclaim, or rebuild when they move on). Attacking from the redoubt will include completely sabotaging any vehicles of the bandits, with complete hit and run tactics until at a manageable number.

6. Large fields of fire, and hardened positions for sentries (so if they approach, they do so over open-ground and where they can be easily shot from a distance). Hardened positions made using cinder blocks (filled with rebar and concrete). Built after the SHTF with stockpiled materials. (or before SHTF, and disguised as something else, like planters, etc., which is my plan.) That way, just dig out the plants, and presto! Pillbox!

7. Posts in the ground every 3' in front of fences, to prevent vehicles from driving into fences to knock them down. (just large wooden fence poles, sunk in to make a vehicle barrier....can get the supplies before hand, then put in after a SHTF event). We always have spares of these for repair anyhow, so this is just having MORE of them.

8. Nightvision. Lots of ways to cheaply keep batteries charged (especially with FL sun). Nightvision will be a big plus (even if only 1st generation). I've done simulated night combat before, and it is simple, the side that has it, if the others don't....wins.

9. If I do have to leave, I plan to leave some goodies behind, but that are poisoned. (mostly booze and the most appealing foodstuffs). Depending on the desired tactics, could be either fast acting or slow acting poisons. Unless time is pressing, the slower acting (matter of days) one is my preference (both are lethal). Long enough to thwart any taste-tester moves by an overly clever bandit, and to spread more throughout their force, but quick enough to get back in soon. The cleanup will suck, and any bandits not partaking may either fight (or flee to return later), but we'd simply assess the situation as needed.

10. Initially trying to establish a dialogue, if they seem willing to do so (and seem too numerous or costly to fight). My usual method for communicating with strangers post SHTF will be this. A remote-controlled truck is sent out, with a two-way radio in the back. Sent to the stranger to use for conversation. I'll try to convince them that leaving us here, to have constant supplies, is a better option, and that for protection from them and other gangs (as now we are a vested interest), we'll pay tribute in what we have to offer (with ground rules). Failing this, we fight anyhow, rather than die on our knees, and enact a scorched earth approach. We'll make this willingness very clear during the negotiations.

 

[Paladin]

I spend so much time thinking about raiders its unreal. 11 years of war, Ever more violent criminal groups. All producing people with experience on spilling blood. I think the worst part is, The longer the groups survives the better it gets at raiding. I mean alot of them will be destroyed from in fighting and picking the wrong fight. But the ones that are in tune, Will be immune to everything short of being carpet bombed.
Now I have no military background to back my opinions. But I feel when faced by a extremely hostile force, If your not 100% sure your force will come out victorious. With almost no casualties. You MUST avoid engaging them at all costs. Risking losing critical personal, Or worse getting captured and having your BoL found is unacceptable.
Now I do believe you can achieve victory through pre planning hit and run attacks, miss perception. And demoralizing strikes against support & leadership elements. Every act of violence you make must result in the injury and death of as many raiders as possible. A screaming comrade is far more demoralizing then a quite one. If you can get them to dread every inch foward. You can make them fall back

 

[Gazrok]

That's just it, if it looks like you have a difficult fight on your hands, LEAVE (but leave some parting gifts). Then, hit and fade tactics. Take one out, wait, take out another, etc.

Of course, this works BOTH ways, and a raider or group may try doing this to you too. So your defenses must consider this.

But, there can be a difference. For example, YOU (after being forced out) may have nearby buried caches of supplies they don't know about, so unlike them, you can hang out longer, and wait longer between strikes to take back your place.

 

[jimLE]

here's a great link to why i wont set up any type of barter system for the first 5 to 10 years after tshtf happens.and the guy makes some good points..

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/why-i-wont-be-charitable-when-the-shtf_102013