Setting up the Ideal homestead or retreat small community for even tougher times

[Tirediron]

This is a spin off of an Idea that @montanabill mentioned in the Are you ready thread (my reply https://www.homesteadingforum.org/t...na-be-a-rough-couple-years.39129/post-1079923 ) , The first problem would be location and or climate

 

[Tirediron]

Climate and location would be a personal and need specific. thing. as well as what caused the need or want to build the place.
I would go with this scenario:
In the recovery period from the NWO woking the world, things just get less viable, perhaps the nice retirement income just fades out and the grid just keeps getting worse.

 

[sonya123]

I would be interested to know who on this forum could actually survive without society for any amount of time, even short time. People that need constant medical care would obviously be out, so would people living in cities with only a tiny yard or nothing. You need land to homestead. We know some people here that are trying to stuff an entire homestead with sheep, chickens , greenhouse, garden on a few acres and it;s not working out so well for them. I have had to go over there and deworm their sheep and we have transported a hay bale for them ( round) because they don't even have a truck. So you need starter capital or inherit land. Building house is super expensive, plus you have to go by all sorts of codes now, so it would be much easier and cheaper to buy land with some sort of house on it, even it it is crappy. ( that's what we did)

 

[Amish Heart]

Agree with you there about the land and crappy house. We have a crappy house. And land.
Climate is an issue, and a personal preference, and whether or not a middle of nowhere is preferred or landspace in a community, like an amish one.
Climate is going to dictate what you can grow and what animals you can raise. Also how hard it is to keep cool or warm.

 

[Mountain trapper]

Everyone's needs are different and every location is different. Originally I wanted a few thousand acres, but had to settle for only a few hundred acres. But at least it's surrounded by hundreds of thousands of acres of National Forest lands. In this area it takes roughly 20 acres to feed one cow for about 7 months. We have good soil, in places, for gardening. We also have a short growing season. Usually our last snow is in late June, but we manage to grow a lot of stuff.
Land prices are very high right now, and I don't see them coming down in our lifetime. Especially in states where the government "owns" well over half of the land. In many areas in the mid west, south and east land and house prices are much less than out west. For most people it will take many years of constant saving to be able to afford even a small homestead. My original strategy was to buy a house and sell it every 5 years, then buy a house for double. Then I started buying land (timber land, ranch land). It worked out pretty well. In a few years we'll probably sell this place, or give it to the grandkids and start scaling down.

 

[montanabill]

Good thread Tirediron.... It also demonstrates all the different mindsets of people from different areas and different backgrounds.

it seems almost any discussion like this quickly fragments into people standing in their corner throwing comments at one another like a snowball fight.....

It seems to come down to nothing will work unless you have this or that and live in this climate or that climate. I think people are much more adaptable to many things.....and especially when things get desperate and their kids are starving..

My point is the crash is almost upon us....if nothing happens and things go along all wonderful then great. That needs no more than normal everyday planning.

Just today tho gold is $2,985.00 so that means my paper dollars are going down in value.... Political infighting and hit lists and assassinations seem to be growing. So at this point it would seem even a poor plan would be better than no plan.

So call it fantasy football/prepper survival or whatever. Could people come together and make a group work for the intense time during and just after a major nation wide event happens? Karen doesn't know anything about farming or gardening but she has worked for years in a urgent care patching up people...she might not have the equipment but Billy joe has been collecting surplus medical supplies for years but faints at the sight of blood. Joe bob don't know much but he has been doing hard farm labor for years and actually enjoys it. And the list goes on..

I just think there is potential for surviving and thriving in places around the country if people are willing to work together. Not in a commune forever and one person accumulates all the wealth but more of a employee owned business and the business is survival.

 

[Tirediron]

One big thing is in my opinion community, when things get rougher, strangers/ newbies are going to get the stink eye. also knowing you location, things longer term weather patterns what foraging is available etc is pretty important. People just jumping in Like sonya pointed out have a deep learning curve. and in a subsistence situation you can't run anywhere near capacity. for example 10 acres per cow per year is kind of the accepted stocking rate around here. but that might be due to fertilizer being available etc. Chances are in a need to subsistance those extras just won't be there. so cut the stocking rate in half at least. All manner of things to think about, like equipment, can you get parts, better yet can you make parts, new stuff with all the electronic nightmares are already causing problems,

 

[montanabill]

Great points Tirediron....
And yes there is a steep learning curve... if you start from zero or just from reading about it or watching you tubes.. This is why I am advocating finding your tribe right now while you have time to check each other out and get to know what skills are available that don't need study and practice... Some people will be usefull and some won't.
I can rewind the pump motor if someone else can spend days hoeing the garden. The person on the hoe doesn't know anything about what I do and that's OK, the classes can happen in the winter..

The other thing I run into is what is it I am preparing for...at one time it was total collapse so we would burn the bridges leading to our area and carry on. Seems like now it is more likely to be widespread economic and transportation collapse and maybe a grid down situation... But I certainly don't know for sure.
I do know a local mini mart just raised the price of a 20 ounce pepsi to $3.49.

 

[elkhound]

one thing to is best ideal or fantasy type thing..we pick perfect places and scenarios.

well can you adapt to a less than not notch spot or your ability?

 

[LadyLocust]

Great points Tirediron....
And yes there is a steep learning curve... if you start from zero or just from reading about it or watching you tubes.. This is why I am advocating finding your tribe right now while you have time to check each other out and get to know what skills are available that don't need study and practice... Some people will be usefull and some won't.
I can rewind the pump motor if someone else can spend days hoeing the garden. The person on the hoe doesn't know anything about what I do and that's OK, the classes can happen in the winter..

The other thing I run into is what is it I am preparing for...at one time it was total collapse so we would burn the bridges leading to our area and carry on. Seems like now it is more likely to be widespread economic and transportation collapse and maybe a grid down situation... But I certainly don't know for sure.
I do know a local mini mart just raised the price of a 20 ounce pepsi to $3.49.

You brought to light a point that hasn’t been mentioned yet. I can stitch, garden, run a saw. I’m guessing if someone else who didn’t have the physical capacity for the garden or saw work but could stitch- I’d be doing the physical work but what happens if it’s more long term? We won’t be able to do the physical work forever. Also the number of folks who are physically unfit is through the roof so there would be some serious rules of no worky, no eaty.

 

[Neb]

one thing to is best ideal or fantasy type thing..we pick perfect places and scenarios.

well can you adapt to a less than not notch spot or your ability?

Adapt or die.

Time will tell for myself. I was blessed with like minded siblings. Enough for the basis of a tribe.

I once priced out a homestead for our tribe. The deal to make that happen disappeared. Not in my budget. But I believe God cares for us and has plans for us. I can only guess work and pray until we figure it out.

Ben

 

[Neb]

You brought to light a point that hasn’t been mentioned yet. I can stitch, garden, run a saw. I’m guessing if someone else who didn’t have the physical capacity for the garden or saw work but could stitch- I’d be doing the physical work but what happens if it’s more long term? We won’t be able to do the physical work forever. Also the number of folks who are physically unfit is through the roof so there would be some serious rules of no worky, no eaty.

The answer is kids and lots of em.

Large families are an asset.

Tongue in cheek

The Amish are strategic and don't need another hobby.

Tongue removed from cheek.

Ben

 

[Amish Heart]

The answer is kids and lots of em.

Large families are an asset.

Tongue in cheek

The Amish are strategic and don't need another hobby.

Tongue removed from cheek.

Ben

Their hobbies tend to be useful ones. You might need a bed quilt, but who says it can't also be for pretty?
I find it useful in a community, too, to do things as a group. Not only does it teach an activity to the ones that don't know what they're doing yet, but it makes it more fun and less work. Like when our neighborhood butchers chickens. It's done on one of our porches, and I taught neighbor Kathy how to the first time. And taught other neighbor Luella how to butcher a turkey for the first time. And we have lunch, too, and the kids all play, and it becomes a good day and not a chore. I'm almost old enough to be Kathy's and Luella's grandma, and now they work faster than I do. So train people to carry on when you start ageing out.

 

[montanabill]

Great comments....My fantasy is to have various hard workers or knowledgeable folks that you chose beforehand...
The sad fact is that not everyone can show up without supplies or workable knowledge and expect for the group to survive.
But if people are willing to be flexible and adapt and accept teaching it could work out.
A motivating factor that I see on a very basic level is if people have children or grand children they tend to want to do more so the youngsters survive.
The perfect climate and land fertility is nice but what if that isn't going to happen? I stock winter coats and boots in various sizes for people I haven't even met yet.

Gardening in less than ideal places is possible with soil amendments...or locating the garden next to rivers in places like where I am in montana.

I guess my point is a small group should be able to survive in most situations that are warmer than arctic... But it does take foresight and planning and cooperation.

Near where this photo was taken are the ruins of a catholic boarding school for the children of the blackfeet tribe. The sisters and jesuits lived there and raised their own livestock and chickens for food as well as gardens. The sisters did most all the work....

 

[Tirediron]

Two of my neighbors both said that people who usually want a 1/4 or 1/2 beef all wanted whole beef this round. No body that I know is spending on anything they don't have to. One neighbor has already mentioned wanting on the rototilling list (i have a nice tiller for one of my little tractors that does a really nice job) and we don't start till late april early may.
Right now it looks like things will slowly grind to a halt, and that will make it harder for people to realize that they need to be self sufficient.
Elkhound is right, this will probably be a Do with what you have situation, not a when I get the idea thing

 

[lonewolf]

for a start any sort of homestead or rural community would be very different in the UK than it would in the US, the UK being smaller than the US, an Island vs a Continent.
however during WW2 British people kept Rabbits and Chickens to supplement their rations, and that is the point, in Britain post collapse we will be keeping smaller animals, not everyone will be keeping cattle and even if they did we could keep Dexter cattle which are a smaller breed and good for both milk and meat. personally with only me and the wife cattle would be the last thing on my list.
as for growing food its more about successive sowings than actual quantity as I know from my own veg growing, and storing the grown food for winter use, its about food production for our own use rather than any kind of financial reward.

 

[UserNameTaken]

This topic is interesting to me, because in some ways it's the premise of my "Desert of Blood" story, if anyone here has read it on another site. It's in final edit, hoping for Amazon release around Memorial Day. It's a lead in to book two, where "Mike" the hero, is part of a well established, well funded "invitation only" survival ranch community, vs a composite of my own HOA community - a disparate mix of the middle class, some well prepped, others clueless, and how they come together or not, vs the ghetto gang(s) of the low income area, with rural dry ranch homesteaders trying to make it work.

We researched this for several years for ourselves, hoping to either set something up like @montanabill envisions, or perhaps buy property nearby and affiliate with an established group. Which kind of harkens back to Mel Tappan and his Rogue River, Oregon survivalist "mecca" of the 1970's.

My experience has been very few "intentional communities" survive beyond a few years. I've posted about this several times in the past. "The Farm" in TN is maybe the best example. Started by 300 hippies in the 70's, who pooled resources, they now have around 250 members on 1,700 core acres and another 4,000 owned by members and affiliates. It's run by a Board of Directors, has multiple businesses. Of course they are largely pacifists, so might not fare well in a real WROL situation.

The others we looked at were mostly cults. Google "Avalon Gardens Eco Village" in southern AZ (then add the word scandals). It comes complete with a silken robe wearing Guru, and a tax exempt "Church of Urantia." Basically you give Gabriel all your money and possesions, vow corporate greed is bad (OK I'm down with that part... LOL) and get to toil on his land until you die... or wise up and bail.

The Amish and Mennonite communities are of course the "gold standard" for making community work. But they revert to the core principals: family, shared religious beliefs, community standards that members grow up surrounded by. On a massive scale is the LDS church, though it is far from a mutual aid group due to size. But outside of the tourist and urban centers along the I-15 true Mormon communities are more closed off to non Mormons. Kind of like a clan up a Kentucky hollar, it takes a generation or three to integrate into the community. Israeli Kibbutzes have had long term success overall, but is a specific group within a religion. All these work for certain kinds of people, others maybe not so well.

We also looked at several smaller, I guess you'd call them co-op groups of around 6-10 people, with the thought of perhaps buying land nearby, and affilating, but they all either failed to meet our requirements (basically no drugs, crazy people, or lack of honesty or profitable operations). Some were bring your 1973 Minnie Winnie and work for free, others were seeking cash infusions because their business models didn't work.

Then of course there's the Fortitude Ranch franchise, and the "Bunker Town" in SD, aka how to profit off fears of the apocaplyse. So in the end we did nothing, now I'm getting too old to realistically be able to uproot everything and build from scratch and not sure how much good I'd be to a group as I get older and the rest of me falls apart. My wife though, is like the female version of "The Professor" from Gilligan's Island, with degrees in science and computer science. She's the one who can make gassifiers and hydro power function, she's hand built two geiger counters, can shoot anything from a Glock to a machine gun (like 40 classes at Front Sight) and generally restore society from memory. She can't make potatoes grow...

Anyway, I'm hoping this thread will do well.

https://thefarmcommunity.com

 

[montanabill]

The last two comments bring up the point of what are you going to do this growing season...
Gardening is great but trying to dig up your lawn and plant squash isn't going to work immediately without a influx of dirt and amendments and fencing to keep critters and hungry people out.
On my way into town I can go thru a subdivision and every now and then I see a nice garden patch with tomatoes and corn and various other crops growing....Would those folks sign on to oversee a much larger garden if it meant a safe place for them and their dependents?
What would it take for lodging for people...If you could live someplace where it was safe to sleep thru the night would you need the 5BR 3 bath...centrally heated place or would a small easily heated/cooled glorified storage shed work...
I just watched a short film on Barrow AK where the visitor was being shown around by a local. They stopped in front of a small but insulated shed and the guide pointed out that two couples lived in the single room building...No plumbing and they used plastic buckets for a toilet and the town service picked up the full buckets when they were set out front... Most people lived off the gov subsidy and played bingo....But they survived. The lifespan increased after they banned booze and only allowed pot...

What kind of ground rules would it take for a farm to succeed, human workers will be needed and some sort of housing and food supply for the workers.
How much security would your fantasy farm need? My plan includes at least one person awake 24 hours a day armed and watching and ready to sound the alarm..

Great post UserNameTaken.....I too have researched and followed various intentional communities thru the years..
In our area the Hutterites do well as farmers....they allow tractors and trucks and have vans for going to town.. Very tight knit and very patriarchal controlled society..
As far as the run down motorhome for housing i will have you know my minnie winnie is a 1998 and the roof does not leak .
So with all your research what type of homestead do you think would work or is that coming up in the next book...I watched "Homestead" the movie and altho it had some pointers on what not to do and covered interpersonal problems I think for most people like me it would scare me away from even trying something like that...
The survival farm in the original patriots book was interesting if a little far fetched, some good points covered but not too much on the actual running and cooperation.
The ranch in "lucifers Hammer" inferred a lot and touched on the power struggles within a group. In some respects the gritty reality came thru for me.

 

[Haertig]

The thing is, having a lot of land would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having a lot of money (gold, whatever) would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having a large stockpile of emergency supplies would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having many useful skills and knowledge/experience would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having animal stock and vegetable gardens would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, living in the perfect climate/environment/location would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, belonging to a good survivalist group would be a benefit after society ends.

The thing is, most people only have one, maybe two (in the rare case), of these things.

So everyone is going to be "making do with what they have", no matter what.

 

[Tirediron]

The thing is, having a lot of land would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having a lot of money (gold, whatever) would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having a large stockpile of emergency supplies would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having many useful skills and knowledge/experience would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, having animal stock and vegetable gardens would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, living in the perfect climate/environment/location would be a benefit after society ends.
The thing is, belonging to a good survivalist group would be a benefit after society ends.

The thing is, most people only have one, maybe two (in the rare case), of these things.

So everyone is going to be "making do with what they have", no matter what.

you are right, about having to make do, but not having learned at least some basic skills and practiced them is not really something to shrug off.
But everybody has a set of goals, some are very short term.
I have a lot of barterable skills, for a "less consumer based world.
I would not want to try a commune style anything, because some people are fairly convinced that they are more equal.
I also see a lot of the thats the way we have always done it. when shown an easier way.
thus a lot of people will have a really rough time trying to live a subsistance life style.

 

[Amish Heart]

The last two comments bring up the point of what are you going to do this growing season...
Gardening is great but trying to dig up your lawn and plant squash isn't going to work immediately without a influx of dirt and amendments and fencing to keep critters and hungry people out.
On my way into town I can go thru a subdivision and every now and then I see a nice garden patch with tomatoes and corn and various other crops growing....Would those folks sign on to oversee a much larger garden if it meant a safe place for them and their dependents?
What would it take for lodging for people...If you could live someplace where it was safe to sleep thru the night would you need the 5BR 3 bath...centrally heated place or would a small easily heated/cooled glorified storage shed work...
I just watched a short film on Barrow AK where the visitor was being shown around by a local. They stopped in front of a small but insulated shed and the guide pointed out that two couples lived in the single room building...No plumbing and they used plastic buckets for a toilet and the town service picked up the full buckets when they were set out front... Most people lived off the gov subsidy and played bingo....But they survived. The lifespan increased after they banned booze and only allowed pot...

What kind of ground rules would it take for a farm to succeed, human workers will be needed and some sort of housing and food supply for the workers.
How much security would your fantasy farm need? My plan includes at least one person awake 24 hours a day armed and watching and ready to sound the alarm..

Great post UserNameTaken.....I too have researched and followed various intentional communities thru the years..
In our area the Hutterites do well as farmers....they allow tractors and trucks and have vans for going to town.. Very tight knit and very patriarchal controlled society..
As far as the run down motorhome for housing i will have you know my minnie winnie is a 1998 and the roof does not leak .
So with all your research what type of homestead do you think would work or is that coming up in the next book...I watched "Homestead" the movie and altho it had some pointers on what not to do and covered interpersonal problems I think for most people like me it would scare me away from even trying something like that...
The survival farm in the original patriots book was interesting if a little far fetched, some good points covered but not too much on the actual running and cooperation.
The ranch in "lucifers Hammer" inferred a lot and touched on the power struggles within a group. In some respects the gritty reality came thru for me.

Wow! In Barrow? One of our daughters did a few months travelling ultrasound work there, she went twice..once in spring and once in summer. It's rough weather there! I did notice that in the original Patriots book. I kinda wanted to know more.