Stair lighting and structure upgrade

[Peanut]

Well, it’s raining outside so the stair upgrade has begun. This is the old canning room, shelves built around two walls. Now it’s just storage, the catch-all room. The 4ft florescent light is toast (top left, 1st pic). It only works via a switch at the entrance. Gonna replace it with a 4ft Led shop light. The stairs (3rd pic) have a small light, high on the right wall with a switch at the top of the stairs. The house is a duplex and wired separately, upper and lower floors.

I’m gonna wire the shop light and stair light onto one circuit along with both switches. The switches will be upgraded to 3-ways so either switch will turn on/off both lights.

Have to replace the landing on the stairs first. It’s 50yr old, half inch particle board. I’ll use half inch plywood. The landing supports need upgraded too. I’ve got a 2x4 in the shop I’m going to sacrifice for that purpose.

Today began with moving junk… took an hour just to clear out a work area. Ran power cords and positioned a couple of drop lights so I’m not working in the dark.

Funny, realized as I worked this morning that I laid the the block for these support columns. I was 13yrs old, supervised of course, I'd forgotten all about it.

 

[Peanut]

I got the old particle board off the landing. I had 2 joists that were too short, pulled both of those out.

Next problem, both risers on the back wall were cut off at the bottom to allow for a sump pump pvc drain pipe that dad added years later. Neither riser goes to the floor to support the landing. They’re just nailed to the cinderblock wall. However, the front of the landing is supported to from floor.

I’m going to lowes for 2, 2x8’s. They have kiln dried 2x8x8’s for $8. Also have 2x8x16’s pressure treated for $20. If their saw guy is there I'll get the pressure treated and have it cut in half. If not the kiln dried will have to do.

I need two pieces 39” long to sister to the front of the back wall supports. This will support that side of the landing and negates moving the drain pipe. I also need two pieces 35” long to act as joists for the landing surface.

 

[Peanut]

Went to town and bought a 2x8 and a 2x10, 8ft long, they were next to each other on the rack. Got some nails and a few joist hangers also. Calling it a day.

 

[Peanut]

Okay, now all 4 corners of the landing are supported from the floor with 2x10's. As well as the stringers.

Now I'm ready to hang two joists across the top (red lines in bottom pic). I bought a 2x8 last night, don't know why. That's over kill by a long shot. (I tend to over build)

I'm putting a solid piece of 1/2 inch plywood down on top. I'm thinking 2x4's should be enough to prevent any sag. Thoughts? or should I go with 2x6's?

 

[Neb]

Okay, now all 4 corners of the landing are supported from the floor with 2x10's. As well as the stringers.

Now I ready to hang two joists across the top (red lines in bottom pic). I bought a 2x8 last night, don't know why. That's over kill by a long shot. (I tend to over build)

I'm putting a solid piece of 1/2 inch plywood down on top. I'm thinking 2x4's should be enough to prevent any sag. Thoughts? or should I go with 2x6's?

View attachment 167834View attachment 167835

Do you ever expect any extreme weight on the landing?

I would go with 2x6

Ben

 

[Haertig]

I'm not a carpenter or builder. But I've never seen flooring supported with 2x4's. I'd go for larger. And 1/2" plywood for the deck? I'd go with 3/4".

You don't have to be an engineer to build something. You only have to be an engineer if you want to build it just barely strong enough.

 

[Peanut]

It's not going to carry any more weight than an old man with a basket of laundry. There's a 90 turn at the landing and another 90 at the top. It was not designed for moving heavy objects. Big objects upstairs go in or out the back door. Downstairs they go out the front onto the porch.

But I'm thinking a 2x6 is the way to go. Just have to make another trip to town.

 

[Peanut]

Had to go to the big town for a 2x6 and hangers… and a couple more errands. Sort of a wasted day but I did cut and hang one joist after I got home. I’d never used hangers before. Not complicated but a pain to use in this tight space. Getting in a position where I could swing a hammer wasn't easy. Still better than not using them.

I used 12d nails, not a problem on the left side. But on the right side I cut the nails in half with bolt cutters then sharpened them. No choice nailing against a cinder block wall. Got 4 short nails in the hanger and 3 long ones as toenails. Its solid, good to go! Repeat tomorrow for the other short joist...

 

[Weedygarden]

I have nothing to add relative to the rebuild, but more about stairs and safety.

When I was teaching for Denver Public Schools, we would get a one page printout every month with safety tips. One monthly tip was to hold the railing when using stairs. That would be kind of hard to do with a laundry basket in your hands, or when carrying things. Because of my fall on stairs when I was a young adult, I am very careful about stairs.

I looked and see that you do have a railing to hold onto. I think that I am seeing a 90 degree turn in the stairs. I think that many basement stairs have that.

I'm house sitting and also am feeding a cat at another house close to the house sitting job. I have had to go into the garages in both of these houses, to dispose of trash. Both have a two step rise and both made me feel so uncomfortable. Not far to fall, but they both felt a little unsafe. No railing, and the steps are a little slippery. Both of these homes are less than 10 years old.

It is too easy to fall.

 

[Peanut]

@Weedygarden first pic... The upper section has rails on each side. From the landing down, only one side has a rail. Also...

@Haertig pointed out that 3/4 inch plywood would be a stronger surface for the landing. Yes, but it would cause a trip hazard.

Bottom pic you can see the paint line of the old 1/2inch particle board surface. The first step of the lower section was built to match that 1/2" surface. Putting in 3/4inch plywood surface would put a 1/4" 'bump' where the landing and that first step meet.

Not so much a problem going down but definitely an issue when going up the stairs. Especially for the 90yr old man who'll be using these stairs. That's why I'm putting in a half inch thick surface. So the first step of the lower section will be perfectly smooth and match the landing.

Besides, you could park a car on this landing supported with 2x10's. I think a 1/2" plywood will be fine.

 

[Haertig]

Putting in 3/4inch plywood surface would put a 1/4" 'bump' where the landing and that first step meet.

No, you wouldn't want a bump there. 1/2" should be perfectly fine for supporting people. I was thinking thicker for supporting things that may be traveling to/from the basement - like heavy gun safes, water heaters full of old sediment, etc.

A second handrail, if you can attach it securely to the outside stringer and/or that cinder block corner pillar, might be of help to the 90yr old as well. Continuous handrails on both sides for the entire staircase and landing would be ideal. Make sure everything is well lit too. I hope I will still be able to climb stairs when I'm 90!

 

[Peanut]

Phase 1 of this job is complete. The landing is repaired and the thin carpet like material is properly stapled down. The plywood surface was the hardest part, no 2 edges were the same length. But I got it right first try, didn't have to do any trimming.

Phase two is replacing upper an lower light switches and wiring them to both lights so the lights can be turned off/on from the top or bottom of the stairs. Currently the top switch and light are on a separate circuit from the bottom switch and light.

 

[Neb]

Wiremold raceway?

Ben

 

[Peanut]

Wiremold raceway?

Ben

No, no building codes out here. Besides both switches and lights are already wired. I just have to change the configuration. Separate the upper switch and light the upper power source and connect it to the lower circuit so either switch will turn on/off the lights.

With only one major change. I'm replacing the lower 4ft florescent light with a 4ft led shop light.

 

[LadyLocust]

@Weedygarden first pic... The upper section has rails on each side. From the landing down, only one side has a rail. Also...

@Haertig pointed out that 3/4 inch plywood would be a stronger surface for the landing. Yes, but it would cause a trip hazard.

Bottom pic you can see the paint line of the old 1/2inch particle board surface. The first step of the lower section was built to match that 1/2" surface. Putting in 3/4inch plywood surface would put a 1/4" 'bump' where the landing and that first step meet.

Not so much a problem going down but definitely an issue when going up the stairs. Especially for the 90yr old man who'll be using these stairs. That's why I'm putting in a half inch thick surface. So the first step of the lower section will be perfectly smooth and match the landing.

Besides, you could park a car on this landing supported with 2x10's. I think a 1/2" plywood will be fine.

View attachment 167974


View attachment 167976

Whatever that is hanging there (and in former pix) creates a silhouette of a mans face on the wall. Sorry but saw it last time and it’s still there so mentioned it

 

[montanabill]

I have a split entry in my house so you walk in the front door to a small landing and have a half flight down and a half flight up...What I did was fix it so I have a light on all the time in the stairs area. Modern led lights draw so little that it is really worth while to maybe avoid a fall.
I also built a sleeping loft over the up stairs and got a lot of use out of hangers.
I used a drill and deck screws to attach the hangers to the wood.

 

[Peanut]

The only thing I did to this mess was cut out the electrical tape from the connections. I was worried it might come apart when I cut the tape but it didn’t.

There is a 20amp feed from the fuse box, 12-2 wire

There is a connection for a 2 plug wall outlet

A connection for a single pole switch and a florescent light

A 2nd connection for 2nd single pole switch and a 2nd florescent light.

Anyone want to guess how many errors there are in this rat nest in the ceiling?

The guy who helped dad wire this house 50yrs ago worked for the phone company so pulling cable was done well. Dad was a great tool and die maker but electricity wasn't his forte!

 

[Neb]

The only thing I did to this mess was cut out the electrical tape from the connections. I was worried it might come apart when I cut the tape but it didn’t.

There is a 20amp feed from the fuse box, 12-2 wire

There is a connection for a 2 plug wall outlet

A connection for a single pole switch and a florescent light

A 2nd connection for 2nd single pole switch and a 2nd florescent light.

Anyone want to guess how many errors there are in this rat nest in the ceiling?

The guy who helped dad wire this house 50yrs ago worked for the phone company so pulling cable was done well. Dad was a great tool and die maker but electricity wasn't his forte!

View attachment 168085View attachment 168086

Yikes!

Not in a junction box.
The switches should have a pair to the switch where the hot is switched and the neutral wired through to a pair going to the load.
No grounds?

The side of my house purchased from my Uncle Jim's estate did that kind of stuff with plumbing. Gas lines plumbed in a loop. Old Dove dishwashing liquid bottle used as an adapter for the waste line from the kitchen sink.

I call them "Uncle Jimerisms". When I tell my wife about them she responds "Your relatives!"

Have you tried out Wago wire connectors yet?

Ben

 

[Peanut]

I started rewiring the house I live in about 20yrs ago (lower duplex). All of the wiring was junk. Nothing in the house was grounded properly. Not a 3-prong outlet in the house when I started.

I divided it into stages as needs and cash allowed. First came the living rm and my bedrm at one end of the house. I had to make sure those rooms were properly wired and grounded for all my modern electronics. I also needed 220v for airconditioning.

Next came the kitchen, needed extra outlets for modern appliances. In stage 3 I did the 2nd bedrm, bath and the 3rd little bedrm (which is actually a toolrm).

This will be the 4th and final stage, the last 2 rooms. The laundry rm and storage rm with the stairs. There are 2-20amp circuits, only showed pictures of one.

@Neb No, I haven’t tried Wago wire connectors. I just looked them up on the net, seems to be what I needed years ago.

Have you used them? Work fine with solid copper wire? Can I combine 12gauge and 14gauge circuits? How about longevity?

Thinking of going to town tomorrow for some. Then I can also go back and redo stage 3. Still not happy with how it turned out. Wago’s would have made it so much simpler.

 

[Neb]

I started rewiring the house I live in about 20yrs ago (lower duplex). All of the wiring was junk. Nothing in the house was grounded properly. Not a 3-prong outlet in the house when I started.

I divided it into stages as needs and cash allowed. First came the living rm and my bedrm at one end of the house. I had to make sure those rooms were properly wired and grounded for all my modern electronics. I also needed 220v for airconditioning.

Next came the kitchen, needed extra outlets for modern appliances. In stage 3 I did the 2nd bedrm, bath and the 3rd little bedrm (which is actually a toolrm).

This will be the 4th and final stage, the last 2 rooms. The laundry rm and storage rm with the stairs. There are 2-20amp circuits, only showed pictures of one.

@Neb No, I haven’t tried Wago wire connectors. I just looked them up on the net, seems to be what I needed years ago.

Have you used them? Work fine with solid copper wire? Can I combine 12gauge and 14gauge circuits? How about longevity?

Thinking of going to town tomorrow for some. Then I can also go back and redo stage 3. Still not happy with how it turned out. Wago’s would have made it so much simpler.

I can't personally comment on longevity but check out the specs.

24-12 gage solid or stranded!

I had a few scary finding in my house.

A sub panel was installed for the back of the house. Instead running a line from the fuse box, they cut the cord from an electric range and wired that to feed the sub panel. When I found that I literally unplugged half of the house.

A front porch was added to the front of the house. That resulted in the service entrance passing through the roof!

Nuff for now.

Ben

 

[Peanut]

Thank You @Neb Those Wago's are great! Glad you told me about them. So easy to work with!!!! Made the pain in the butt part of wiring simple and safe.

I had to go up in the 2nd floor ceiling and trace wires today. Took most of the morning to isolate the stairway switch and light.

Taking a break... need to decide if I need to replace the 12/2 stairway wires with new 14/2. I'm putting in led light fixtures so 14/2 is plenty large enough. But feeding and fishing new wire through the walls can turn into a nightmare.

Thinking I have to do it though. These old 12/2 wires actually came out of the old house that was built in the 50's. Some wire was salvaged after the tornado in '74 and used in this house. Insulation looks okay but can't really know if they'll be safe for another 40yrs.

 

[Neb]

Thank You @Neb Those Wago's are great! Glad you told me about them. So easy to work with!!!! Made the pain in the butt part of wiring simple and safe.

I had to go up in the 2nd floor ceiling and trace wires today. Took most of the morning to isolate the stairway switch and light.

Taking a break... need to decide if I need to replace the 12/2 stairway wires with new 14/2. I'm putting in led light fixtures so 14/2 is plenty large enough. But feeding and fishing new wire through the walls can turn into a nightmare.

Thinking I have to do it though. These old 12/2 wires actually came out of the old house that was built in the 50's. Some wire was salvaged after the tornado in '74 and used in this house. Insulation looks okay but can't really know if they'll be safe for another 40yrs.

Provided the old wires aren't stapled inplace or run through holes in the studs, I use the old wire to pull in the new wires. The key to that working is being very neat about the splice. I put loops in the ground wires and crimp the loops tightly. The white and black are cut staggering their length. The the whole splice is taped up straight and tight with no bumps to get caught up in the holes. Then pull out the old and new wire replaces the old.

I ran all new wire in my place. At one point I saw a cloud of wire dust cutting back and old wire. Latter I read the label on the cable.

Tech-bestos

Ben

 

[Neb]

Provided the old wires aren't stapled inplace or run through holes in the studs, I use the old wire to pull in the new wires. The key to that working is being very neat about the splice. I put loops in the ground wires and crimp the loops tightly. The white and black are cut staggering their length. The the whole splice is taped up straight and tight with no bumps to get caught up in the holes. Then pull out the old and new wire replaces the old.

I ran all new wire in my place. At one point I saw a cloud of wire dust cutting back and old wire. Latter I read the label on the cable.

Tech-bestos

Ben

I found an old sample of the splice. Let me get some pictures.

Ben

 

[Neb]

I found an old sample of the splice. Let me get some pictures.

Ben

Wrapped up splice.

Close up of the old wire end.

After removing the tape. See loops.

Staggered wire lengths image 1

Staggered cut image 2

I hope that helps.

Ben

 

[Peanut]

Up in the attic the old wire insulation looked okay. But when I pulled the switch out of the wall.... the insulation was turning to powder. That settles it... I'm pulling new wire tomorrow.

Talk about a pain... I had to destroy the metal wall box to get it out. It was one of the really old type that screwed together instead of being one piece. Someone assembled it in the wall!!!!

The screw heads were inside the 1" v-joint pine so the box wouldn't slide out the front. I took really large channel locks and crushed the long sides together so those pesky screw heads would clear the pine boards.

The reason to pull the box out... it's much easier to feed new wire down the wall without a box in the way.

Pesky old box... whats left of it!

 

[Neb]

Up in the attic the old wire insulation looked okay. But when I pulled the switch out of the wall.... the insulation was turning to powder. That settles it... I'm pulling new wire tomorrow.

Talk about a pain... I had to destroy the metal wall box to get it out. It was one of the really old type that screwed together instead of being one piece. Someone assembled it in the wall!!!!

The screw heads were inside the 1" v-joint pine so the box wouldn't slide out the front. I took really large channel locks and crushed the long sides together so those pesky screw heads would clear the pine boards.

The reason to pull the box out... it's much easier to feed new wire down the wall without a box in the way.

View attachment 168267

Pesky old box... whats left of it!

View attachment 168272

There should have been a clamp for the wire inside that box.

After removing the 2 screws securing the box it should have pulled out of the wall. May have been tight. There are replacements for that box that have wings on the sides that will pull the box into the wall.

The screw together boxes can be ganged together to allow multiple switches.

Are you planning for two wires one in one out of that switch box?

Ben

 

[Peanut]

There should have been a clamp for the wire inside that box.

After removing the 2 screws securing the box it should have pulled out of the wall. May have been tight. There are replacements for that box that have wings on the sides that will pull the box into the wall.

The screw together boxes can be ganged together to allow multiple switches.

Are you planning for two wires one in one out of that switch box?

Ben

I have several of the new plastic boxes, doubles and singles. Didn't need to save the old box. Just needed it out of the way.

I'm using 14-2 but it's a 3-way switch, just have to add a pigtail/jumper to ground the switch.

 

[Peanut]

I’m feeling so lucky I should go buy a lottery ticket. Only took me an hour to feed new 14/2 wire from the first floor to the upper stairway light switch and upper wall light. This saved me about $50 in wire. Not to mention climbing around in attic and feeding new wire from the top, a royal pain in the butt.