Started looking for a BOL

[Mountain trapper]

With me, it is the wife that prevents the move to an isolate spot. I am curious why so much land it needed (100 + acres)? is this much land needed for commercial living / farming -- you need to make a living from the land? I am planning for enough to feed a family of say 10 or 12 but I an looking to do this with much less land. Not criticizing anybody, just curious about the different plans.

It depends on where the land is located to determine how much is needed to support a family. Where I live it takes 20 acres to feed 1 cow. And that doesn't take in to account the land that it takes to raise enough hay to feed that 1 cow over winter. Water is also scarce out here. I have over a half mile of buried water lines, a pond and springs to provide water to our livestock and garden/orchard. Unless the land is irrigated even 100 acres isn't very much in some parts of the country. Remember, without adequate water, no amount of land is worth anything.

 

[tmttactical]

@Arcticdude

I do agree that water is th actual life blood of all life forms. Now I don't plan to raise big critters, just rabbits and maybe a few chickens. I am a desert creature, so I do plan to capture every available drop of water that falls on my structures. I also don't get much rain fall, about 12 inches per year, so I must store as much as possible. I don't know your annual rail fall, so I would't even begin to make suggestions. With the described water needs, how is it possible to make the cattle business profitable? As for raising enough food to feed a family, traditional method would be difficult. Above ground crops do take a substantially larger amount of water. Below grade greenhouses (no, I don't sell greenhouse) can help mitigate the water usage. I also plan to re-cycle gray water for irrigation of food crops and black water for orchard type trees and for thorn type hedges -- no root crops. Rabbit poop can also make a high quality fertilizer. How do the small farmers /ranchers deal with your area weather / climate issues?

 

[Mountain trapper]

@Arcticdude

I do agree that water is th actual life blood of all life forms. Now I don't plan to raise big critters, just rabbits and maybe a few chickens. I am a desert creature, so I do plan to capture every available drop of water that falls on my structures. I also don't get much rain fall, about 12 inches per year, so I must store as much as possible. I don't know your annual rail fall, so I would't even begin to make suggestions. With the described water needs, how is it possible to make the cattle business profitable? As for raising enough food to feed a family, traditional method would be difficult. Above ground crops do take a substantially larger amount of water. Below grade greenhouses (no, I don't sell greenhouse) can help mitigate the water usage. I also plan to re-cycle gray water for irrigation of food crops and black water for orchard type trees and for thorn type hedges -- no root crops. Rabbit poop can also make a high quality fertilizer. How do the small farmers /ranchers deal with your area weather / climate issues?

Water is always an issue here. The annual rainfall at our elevation (5,000') is about 26", of which 90% falls as snow. We depend on a heavy mountain snow pack to keep the lakes and rivers full. Our weather is probably the most important thing that we all deal with. Like most others around the area, I start preparing for winter in August. Sometimes sooner. Right now we have about 6" of snow on the ground with more expected next week.
In this area most ranchers have at least some irrigated pasture/hay ground, and most of their cattle graze on open range land leased from the Forest Service or BLM.
I'm planning on drilling a new well next spring to provide water for the house, garden and orchard. Our existing well is over a 1/4 mile away and over a hill. After the new well is drilled I'll use the old well to irrigate a few acres.
My property was originally part of a large ranch that was used for grazing cattle, growing dry land hay and timber. In the old days they even grew potatoes on this property to sell to the local mines.
This property is surrounded 100% by National Forest, which means nobody will ever build within miles from us.
I bought this place several years ago with the intent on giving it to my kids some day. But neither one are interested. Now I'm hoping maybe the grandkids will want it.

 

[tmttactical]

@Arcticdude

The annual water coming in the form of snow is a real killer. It is difficult to collect snow and then wait for it to melt. Wells are your only real chance, you can dig big dry ponds and push / pile snow in them but again a lot of work for minimal results. I am sorry the kids are not interested but I do have hopes for the grandkids. Right now the economy is going good and it is difficult for the younger folks to buy into the future problems. It is real nice not to have future neighbors. My selected property has no appeal for future development but that could change. I certainly hope not. My projections, barring a natural disaster, is the collapse is about 20 years away. It should take the free lunch crowd at least that long to circumvent the courts and bankrupt this county, So maybe all your plans will still save your grandkids. My situation is very similar to yours. Kids are not ready to give up their current life styles but maybe the grand kids will see the writing on the walls. Time will tell.

 

[lonewolf]

I have 6 places I can relocate to if we have to leave here, I don't expect to have to as we are in "the middle of nowhere" according to some people already, I don't own these places they are abandoned. I am constantly looking to buy my own land but the prices down here are silly expensive, saw a piece advertised last week-got land a stone building and a couple of shed type barns but its £10 thousand more than I've got so i'll just keep looking, and saving.

 

[brandx]

With me, it is the wife that prevents the move to an isolate spot. I am curious why so much land it needed (100 + acres)? is this much land needed for commercial living / farming -- you need to make a living from the land? I am planning for enough to feed a family of say 10 or 12 but I an looking to do this with much less land. Not criticizing anybody, just curious about the different plans.

I like the isolation that more land gives.

 

[lonewolf]

I can get isolation without needing to own the land, it comes with location not ownership.

 

[OldCoot]

How much land anyone NEEDS will vary greatly on your climate/rainfall and if you will raise farm animals. Also depends on how wooded the place is. Around here, even really good land might still be 25-50% woodland... which is a good thing for gathering fuel & for wildlife. Also plan on rather large gardens. Yes, today with all sorts of tools, equipment & endless chemicals and fertilizer, one can grow a lot on one acre. Can't be done during a crisis without all these modern conveniences. Also garden land will need to be rotated so that you don't grow the same crop in the same spot over & over. That greatly depletes the soil plus increases insect & disease pressure. Also while rotating crops, some of the garden land will need to lay unused for a year, to allow for nature to recover.

For anyone contemplating heading out to the country to survive a crisis, or hoping to become self reliant, I suggest reading the book Collard Greens: Growing Up on a Sandhill Subsistence Farm in Louisiana During the Great Depression. It paints a clear picture on how farm families were able to survive during a horrible crisis.
https://www.amazon.com/collard-greens-Subsistence-Louisiana-Depression/dp/1434394360

 

[OldCoot]

I can get isolation without needing to own the land, it comes with location not ownership.

Exactly.

 

[Doreena]

Call me paranoid, but I want more land than I physically need to have my homestead because if I bought what I really need, I would be afraid that the land I don’t control might be sold off and developed, or I could get a really bad neighbor...I am partnering with some folks I trust to offset the cost of the land.


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[lonewolf]

whilst it is possible for developers to buy land in the UK it dosent come with planning permission, agricultural land is different to building land, and its not that easy to get the necessary consents, most building land comes within town or city development plans and most agricultural land is outside of residential limits.
its done like that so we cant all just buy bits of land and build anything we want on them, if we could we'd all be doing it.

 

[OldCoot]

Call me paranoid, but I want more land than I physically need to have my homestead because if I bought what I really need, I would be afraid that the land I don’t control might be sold off and developed, or I could get a really bad neighbor...I am partnering with some folks I trust to offset the cost of the land.

Understand. Life is all about trade-offs. Understand though in a rural environment the odds of a development going in without city services is not likely at all. Since most of us aren't super wealthy, one has to choose how best to allocate resources. So by using more of your money for additional land to be used mainly as a buffer from others, what have you given up for that bit of assurance? Question becomes, what else could that money have been used for? So in one case, person A purchases 100 acres but really can't improve it now... but hopes to at some future time. Person B, with the same money purchases 20 acres, hires a dirt guy to remove some trees, clean up the property some and put in a pond. Then this person fences in the property and maybe starts an orchard with long lasting fruit trees, nut trees, grapes & berries.

I'm also not into partnering with anyone... especially family. Even these folks can let you down. What happens when one passes away or moves or just decides to sell their property? Unless you have spare money to buy it, you just might still end up with someone you don't like right next to you. Also, even 100 acres really isn't all that big & doesn't buy much isolation. You will have neighbors no matter what. My experience is rural neighbors are all just good folk. As a group, I think much better than city folk. I like having friends and neighbors close by. In my case, due to the layout of my 20 acres, our house is on the crest of a hill within 200' of one neighbor. On the other parts of my property you could go miles without reaching a neighbor. That is just how land sometimes works... you don't always build your impregnable castle dead center of your estate.

I understand preppers aren't trusting souls but sometimes (most times) the best strategy is to build friendships with your neighbors. Help each other with projects and mutual security during normal times. Lend each other tools and occasional manpower. I have found this is not so easy in an urban environment but completely natural in a rural one. So my suggestion is not to fear neighbors but to cultivate them as you would a crop. Spend time with them, help them when it is needed. Worship with them and maybe root on their kids at sports events. Guess I look at it different than most here. I see neighbors ( a few, not a whole subdivision) as a resource in a rural environment... not a liability.

 

[lonewolf]

I personally don't like or trust others, as for lending tools forget it, let them buy their own, I've had too many broken or never returned tools to do that again.

 

[Maverick]

@Arcticdude

The annual water coming in the form of snow is a real killer. It is difficult to collect snow and then wait for it to melt. Wells are your only real chance, you can dig big dry ponds and push / pile snow in them but again a lot of work for minimal results. I am sorry the kids are not interested but I do have hopes for the grandkids. Right now the economy is going good and it is difficult for the younger folks to buy into the future problems. It is real nice not to have future neighbors. My selected property has no appeal for future development but that could change. I certainly hope not. My projections, barring a natural disaster, is the collapse is about 20 years away. It should take the free lunch crowd at least that long to circumvent the courts and bankrupt this county, So maybe all your plans will still save your grandkids. My situation is very similar to yours. Kids are not ready to give up their current life styles but maybe the grand kids will see the writing on the walls. Time will tell.

Besides having wells Snow packed keep the creeks/streams/rivers flowing through the summers. It’s not like collecting the snow ourselves and waiting for it to melt, it works in unison with the seasons, we have good and bad times but that comes with the territory. Also having that much land also assures one access to the above ground water and that no other builder can cut the flow of water off it also assures the water isn’t contaminated by development. Of course the flow of water above ground isn’t the only reason, grazing fields needs rotating. There are more reasons than above and I just listed the highlights.

Like I said earlier when the land was purchased it was just a little over $40 a acre today an acre is going for $2546 in these parts so the grand kids future is secured as long as they do it right.

 

[Doreena]

Understand. Life is all about trade-offs. Understand though in a rural environment the odds of a development going in without city services is not likely at all. Since most of us aren't super wealthy, one has to choose how best to allocate resources. So by using more of your money for additional land to be used mainly as a buffer from others, what have you given up for that bit of assurance? Question becomes, what else could that money have been used for? So in one case, person A purchases 100 acres but really can't improve it now... but hopes to at some future time. Person B, with the same money purchases 20 acres, hires a dirt guy to remove some trees, clean up the property some and put in a pond. Then this person fences in the property and maybe starts an orchard with long lasting fruit trees, nut trees, grapes & berries.

I'm also not into partnering with anyone... especially family. Even these folks can let you down. What happens when one passes away or moves or just decides to sell their property? Unless you have spare money to buy it, you just might still end up with someone you don't like right next to you. Also, even 100 acres really isn't all that big & doesn't buy much isolation. You will have neighbors no matter what. My experience is rural neighbors are all just good folk. As a group, I think much better than city folk. I like having friends and neighbors close by. In my case, due to the layout of my 20 acres, our house is on the crest of a hill within 200' of one neighbor. On the other parts of my property you could go miles without reaching a neighbor. That is just how land sometimes works... you don't always build your impregnable castle dead center of your estate.

I understand preppers aren't trusting souls but sometimes (most times) the best strategy is to build friendships with your neighbors. Help each other with projects and mutual security during normal times. Lend each other tools and occasional manpower. I have found this is not so easy in an urban environment but completely natural in a rural one. So my suggestion is not to fear neighbors but to cultivate them as you would a crop. Spend time with them, help them when it is needed. Worship with them and maybe root on their kids at sports events. Guess I look at it different than most here. I see neighbors ( a few, not a whole subdivision) as a resource in a rural environment... not a liability.

I can’t argue...I look for a settled, farming ...maybe on family lands...close by. But I cam concerned about adjacent land use as well. For example, the use of sprays on crops, landfills that also leach chemicals, as well as the less likely densely populated development. I would like a buffer between me and whatever...


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[lonewolf]

i'd like to get as far out as I can, no neighbours-certainly not near ones but preferably no one at all, i'm okay where I am but I do have neighbours and i'd like to be where i'm alone.

 

[OldCoot]

I can’t argue...I look for a settled, farming ...maybe on family lands...close by. But I cam concerned about adjacent land use as well. For example, the use of sprays on crops, landfills that also leach chemicals, as well as the less likely densely populated development. I would like a buffer between me and whatever...

You can control or mitigate these concerns by the land selection process. I wouldn't like to be adjacent to a huge farming operation, with all the chemicals and noise from equipment. I chose an area where the land is mostly used for cattle grazing and hay fields for those cows. Very peaceful.

 

[lonewolf]

hill farming country is best, no crops just cattle and sheep or pigs.

 

[Mountain trapper]

I can get isolation without needing to own the land, it comes with location not ownership.

But there isn't much you can do with land that you don't own. My property is surrounded by over a million acres of National Forest and State Forest lands, except for what I lease from the FS, I can't legally do anything permanent on any of that land.

 

[lonewolf]

we have a national park and other land not far from us, some people have something called "commoners rights" which are ancient grazing rights.

 

[TexasFreedom]

I used to be ok with neighbors 20 ft away. My comfort increased to neighboring property being outside a shotgun range from the homestead. I'm now considering a neighbor's property should be outside a small rifle's range. Not a 50 cal, but between a 22 and 223 from your homestead. And that's assuming any trees are cut down to give you line-of-sight.

Regarding National Forests, that sounds great, NOW. Until they decide they want to do something with the land. Or they tell you want you can/can't do. Sorry, no big brother within that rifle shot.

 

[Maverick]

I used to be ok with neighbors 20 ft away. My comfort increased to neighboring property being outside a shotgun range from the homestead. I'm now considering a neighbor's property should be outside a small rifle's range. Not a 50 cal, but between a 22 and 223 from your homestead. And that's assuming any trees are cut down to give you line-of-sight.

Regarding National Forests, that sounds great, NOW. Until they decide they want to do something with the land. Or they tell you want you can/can't do. Sorry, no big brother within that rifle shot.

Not much they can do here at Gifford Pinchot NF, big brother hasn't been an issue between the property and GPNF.

 

[tmttactical]

How much land anyone NEEDS will vary greatly on your climate/rainfall and if you will raise farm animals. Also depends on how wooded the place is. Around here, even really good land might still be 25-50% woodland... which is a good thing for gathering fuel & for wildlife. Also plan on rather large gardens. Yes, today with all sorts of tools, equipment & endless chemicals and fertilizer, one can grow a lot on one acre. Can't be done during a crisis without all these modern conveniences. Also garden land will need to be rotated so that you don't grow the same crop in the same spot over & over. That greatly depletes the soil plus increases insect & disease pressure. Also while rotating crops, some of the garden land will need to lay unused for a year, to allow for nature to recover.

For anyone contemplating heading out to the country to survive a crisis, or hoping to become self reliant, I suggest reading the book Collard Greens: Growing Up on a Sandhill Subsistence Farm in Louisiana During the Great Depression. It paints a clear picture on how farm families were able to survive during a horrible crisis.
https://www.amazon.com/collard-greens-Subsistence-Louisiana-Depression/dp/1434394360

Thanks Oldcoot, I have just added the book to my list. I am curious about the part of leaving a plot fallow for one year. Do you have to do that with a rotated crop greenhouse environment or is that just something required in open field type farming?

 

[tmttactical]

I like Oldcoot's layout for his intended use. I like Arcticdude's layout for his intended plans. We each have to select our intended use and then find the property that meets that plan and that we can afford. My selected location meets my plan and my budget but I did have to hunt for a couple years to find it. 5 acres on a mountain ridge that does not have any commercial value is better than 300 acres surrounded by the possibility of residential development, from a prepper stand point. From an investors point of view, I would want the 300 acres. Again know what you want, then start the hunt. Prep now and sell later , one type of property and location. Prep now and for all time, another type of property and location. No right or wrong, just what you want and need.