TEOTWAWKI 1- No Electricity Forever What Can You Do to Cool Your Shelter?

[EdwardGein]

Hi,

Just joined and I will be asking a series of questions basically for preparing for TEOTWAWKI and will be labeling them numerically for reference. Unless I stipulate otherwise, my questions will not be on short term SHTF but on TEOTWAWKI. Some questions/answers for TEOTWAWKI also may be the same/applicable for SHTF but I appreciate your input to be primarily for TEOTWAWKI.

Power Grid is Permanently Down & No Electricity Forever - Anything You Can Do to Cool Your Shelter so its comfortable especially when its hot outside?

Other than residing in a moderate climate area or even a cold area where you can use fireplaces to heat things up is there anything one can do to making things cooler in your Shelter if electricity no longer exists and thus air conditioning is no longer available? I am assuming, please correct me if I'm wrong, that solar panels could not power up air conditioning.

 

[SheilaT.]

You writing a book?

 

[Undertaker]

Solar panels can power AC units. Check this solar powered AC Unit out on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Solar-Powere..._QL65&qid=1473688284&ref_=mp_s_a_1_12&sr=1-12

 

[EdwardGein]

LOL Yeah a book in my mind. Thanks for the link on that Solar Air Conditioning Unit. Reviews were not that good but at least I know these things exist now.

 

[Brent S]

Hi,

Just joined and I will be asking a series of questions basically for preparing for TEOTWAWKI and will be labeling them numerically for reference. Unless I stipulate otherwise, my questions will not be on short term SHTF but on TEOTWAWKI. Some questions/answers for TEOTWAWKI also may be the same/applicable for SHTF but I appreciate your input to be primarily for TEOTWAWKI.

Power Grid is Permanently Down & No Electricity Forever - Anything You Can Do to Cool Your Shelter so its comfortable especially when its hot outside?

Other than residing in a moderate climate area or even a cold area where you can use fireplaces to heat things up is there anything one can do to making things cooler in your Shelter if electricity no longer exists and thus air conditioning is no longer available? I am assuming, please correct me if I'm wrong, that solar panels could not power up air conditioning.

With the right amount of solar panels you could run any air conditioner. At least during the day, which should be all you need the ac for. To do solar right though you need batteries. The problem with batteries is in about three years or so they need to be replaced. Might be hard to do in a grid down scenario.

Another option is the idea behind a root cellar. The temp is always the same underground. Digging in will give you controled temperature. I've seen homes cut into a hillside. Do this along with good insulation on the exposed parts and you don't need ac. Another option I saw was a guy buried a long pipe under ground. It snaked it's way underground to increase its length underground. One end had a mesh screen on it above ground to keep creepy crawlies out, and the other end came into the house. He had a small solar powered fan on it to move air through the pipe, cooling it as it did.

I haven't tried this yet, but think a cool creek could be made to cool a house. If you take a truck radiator and flow the cold creek water thru it, it would cool just like a regular ac condenser, just not quite as well. As for getting the water to the radiator a ram pump would move the water up to it using the flow from the creek to power it. To get a fan to move the air through the radiator use the force of the water after it flows thru the radiator to turn it. That water then could flow back to the creek or use it to flush toilets, water garden etc. All this is fairly easy technology. The efficiency and ease and low cost of an electrically powered ac is why you don't see stuff like this.
One other thing comes to mind. Look up zeer pot. It is a mini referigerator used by poor regions with no access to electricity. Simple technology using evaporation to keep your food cool.
All this is simple and doable technology. No one does it as it's too easy to just flip a switch and get what you need. The problem is if shtf or whatever, it will be much harder to get the things needed to build these things. Without electricity working with materials will be much more difficult. My suggestion is for setting up systems now and work the bugs out of them before you need them.

 

[Silent Earth]

(1) If you have gravity fed water supplies you can rig sprinkler to continuously spray water onto the house roof and the evaporation process will help pull down the interior temp
(2) Put a screen up across the frontage of your house that receives the most direct sunlight to stop or reduce the direct light from reaching the house thus cutting the radiation to the home.
(3) Using LARGE tarps and something to act as spacers put an elevated tarp cover over your roof NOT in contact with the roof, this works very well to screen the roof from the suns direct radiation
(4) Students Air Con , IE for a ROOM if you have any power even twelve volts power a fan to blow air over a large bowl of water, this will pull down the temp slightly.
(5) Plant a line of trees in from of the sun receiving side of the house to screen the house from the worst of the suns ray
(6) As five but use elevated earth berm
(7) Build underground or move into your storm shelter in the hottest periods.

 

[EdwardGein]

Like the idea of building underground but let's say it was 105 degrees outside, what would you guess roughly would be the temperature inside your shelter at the underground level?

 

[Maverick]

http://www.hotspotenergy.com/DC-air-conditioner/

 

[Maverick]

Like the idea of building underground but let's say it was 105 degrees outside, what would you guess roughly would be the temperature inside your shelter at the underground level?

Depends how big the shelter is how deep and how many bodies the shelter going to house, filtration and airflow. Your question doesn't have an easy answer generally speaking 10deg F below outside temps but again 'how deep'? the deeper the cooler to a certain point, too deep you you begin to experience geothermal heating. If you consume 2500 calories a day (man) your body would emit to what equals 120w for a women 2ooo calories a day would emit 97w. Science needs to be applied to underground shelters including consumed oxygen per sq foot for each person and the filtration sized accordingly, not enough filtration then the air becomes thinner thus warmer.

It's not cut and dry as most would think

 

[Silent Earth]

Like the idea of building underground but let's say it was 105 degrees outside, what would you guess roughly would be the temperature inside your shelter at the underground level?

Usually it hovers around the mid 50s Fahrenheit all year round unless you are up in the permafrost region, In the US the people to ask are those who still have root veg cellars in use, I believe they are consistant within a couple of degrees in the mid 50s all year round.

Dunno about the US but in much of Southern Europe and the near East many build what we Brits crudely call UPSIDE DOWN houses with the bedrooms downstairs or in the basement, and the living rooms up on the first floor. its always cooler on the lower floors.

 

[Silent Earth]

Houses in hot climes are often designed with very thick walls to keep heat out in the summer and to act as heat sumps in the winter, a few better designed ones see the house internal passageways designed to act as venturis so that the how air is drawn out of the house by the passing cool air at the north side.

 

[Mountain trapper]

In my case I'm living in the mountains above 5,000' and the house will be shaded by the trees. All of our electricity will come from solar and wind and I'm not expecting to need AC here. We usually get a good breeze year-round which will help keep it cool in summer. Heating will be with wood, water heater and cooking is with propane.

 

[jontte]

buildning it half underground doesn't mean you have to do it like a bunker but with the insulation against water,there's something to be careful about and do it properly.

 

[EdwardGein]

Some useful information, thanks. If you had a choice, would you be better off living once TEOTWAWKI started in a freezing area like North Dakota where chances are you would be the most isolated security wise from people than a moderate temperature area like San Francisco which would minimize as much as possible the problem with hot weather and no electricity?

 

[Brent S]

Some useful information, thanks. If you had a choice, would you be better off living once TEOTWAWKI started in a freezing area like North Dakota where chances are you would be the most isolated security wise from people than a moderate temperature area like San Francisco which would minimize as much as possible the problem with hot weather and no electricity?

No doubt, being isolated away from large population areas is wise in the first year or so. At some point joining with others for security and sharing the work load will be important, but I'm still thinking being away from everything is the way to go.

 

[Silent Earth]

In my case I'm living in the mountains above 5,000' and the house will be shaded by the trees. All of our electricity will come from solar and wind and I'm not expecting to need AC here. We usually get a good breeze year-round which will help keep it cool in summer. Heating will be with wood, water heater and cooking is with propane.

Oh here is one I remember from Alaska, twas a TV show years ago and the dude lived in a modern log cabin. what they did was stack the winter supply of firewood 4 rows deep across the frontage of the cabin floor to roof that was facing the worst of the weather and as the winter progressed the wood pile insulated the house from the worst effects of the winter and the supply only dwindled as spring approached.

 

[Silent Earth]

Some useful information, thanks. If you had a choice, would you be better off living once TEOTWAWKI started in a freezing area like North Dakota where chances are you would be the most isolated security wise from people than a moderate temperature area like San Francisco which would minimize as much as possible the problem with hot weather and no electricity?

Sir, Neither I would look to be living where there is a regular reliable CLEAN running water with sufficient fall to power a micro hydro system and sufficient tree cover for fuel, climate is not a major issue in my book, but harvestable and useful resources are plentiful are. Survivalism is about THRIVING in a TEOTWAKI situation not just existing. North Dak small population large open areas, San Fran is where my wife is flying to tomorrow and though it came out favourably in George Stewarts EARTH ABIDES it has many issues that would concern me greatly Part of southern CO and Eastern Washington would appeal to me but I'm sure many of the American guys here can list other good areas. If you have decent sunlight or fast moving water or plenty of wind, or geothermal you CAN soon have electricty.

 

[Gazrok]

People did live before AC. We'd just have to get used to it. Open some windows, etc.

 

[EdwardGein]

Sir, Neither I would look to be living where there is a regular reliable CLEAN running water with sufficient fall to power a micro hydro system and sufficient tree cover for fuel, climate is not a major issue in my book, but harvestable and useful resources are plentiful are. Survivalism is about THRIVING in a TEOTWAKI situation not just existing. North Dak small population large open areas, San Fran is where my wife is flying to tomorrow and though it came out favourably in George Stewarts EARTH ABIDES it has many issues that would concern me greatly Part of southern CO and Eastern Washington would appeal to me but I'm sure many of the American guys here can list other good areas. If you have decent sunlight or fast moving water or plenty of wind, or geothermal you CAN soon have electricty.

 

[EdwardGein]

But what about if there is no more power?

Sir, Neither I would look to be living where there is a regular reliable CLEAN running water with sufficient fall to power a micro hydro system and sufficient tree cover for fuel, climate is not a major issue in my book, but harvestable and useful resources are plentiful are. Survivalism is about THRIVING in a TEOTWAKI situation not just existing. North Dak small population large open areas, San Fran is where my wife is flying to tomorrow and though it came out favourably in George Stewarts EARTH ABIDES it has many issues that would concern me greatly Part of southern CO and Eastern Washington would appeal to me but I'm sure many of the American guys here can list other good areas. If you have decent sunlight or fast moving water or plenty of wind, or geothermal you CAN soon have electricty.

 

[Silent Earth]

But what about if there is no more power?

How could that possibly occur? , I know of no scenario where it would be impossible to find some method of generating power?

 

[EdwardGein]

How could that possibly occur? , I know of no scenario where it would be impossible to find some method of generating power?

Don't you need electricity to run all these systems? Obviously I'm not an expert on this stuff so feel free to tell me otherwise

 

[Silent Earth]

I dont understand your question? if you have fast flowing water and a drop of 2 meters, wind or sun or geothermal you can generate power ? power and electricity being the same thing.

 

[Maverick]

As Gaz have said 'people lived without A/C'... for thousands of years in some of the most heated climates. Even if you were able to provide off grid power be it wind, solar or hydro one still needs to cover repairs and maintenance given your off grid source won't last forever. There are equipment that really last a very long time exceeding MTF but one would practically need a budget similar to NASA. Perhaps the best question? how much are you willing to spend?

 

[Maverick]

SallyC ask if you are writing a book and you replied "Yeah a book in my mind" There are thousands of books on the subject of alternative energy some really good that was written by engineers that are very educated in this field but yet you are asking us laymen? If you are planning on writing a book would it be better to seek out more knowledgeable forums that's specific to what you're wanting to know?

I'm getting a little confused in your direction here, not exactly sure what you are wanting? Ok, at my age I tend to get confused easily

 

[SurvivorTown]

Been in the AC business for about 20 years now. You best bet is to live in a mild climate and have good ventilation during summer. Its actually much easier to heat your house with solar. With enough solar panels you can run AC but really not practical long term. Battery life probably not more than a few years (you will need a lot of batteries and panels to run AC) then you have breakdowns, parts and maintenance on the AC and solar components. Also there are no reliably tested and proven DC AC units so you will need an inverter as well. I think when the #SHTF we can forget about AC. Its takes and enormous amount of energy, relative to LED lights, etc. and just not practical long term. I live in Florida so its going to be miserable for sure but AC has only been widespread for about 50 years now so I think we will make it. I am much more worried about food in the long run. No power = minimal food production = no grocery stores = very little food long term. Read "One Second After" and I think that would be a fair account of how things will be. Hope this helps!

 

[SurvivorTown]

In my case I'm living in the mountains above 5,000' and the house will be shaded by the trees. All of our electricity will come from solar and wind and I'm not expecting to need AC here. We usually get a good breeze year-round which will help keep it cool in summer. Heating will be with wood, water heater and cooking is with propane.

Nice!

 

[EdwardGein]

SallyC ask if you are writing a book and you replied "Yeah a book in my mind" There are thousands of books on the subject of alternative energy some really good that was written by engineers that are very educated in this field but yet you are asking us laymen? If you are planning on writing a book would it be better to seek out more knowledgeable forums that's specific to what you're wanting to know?

I'm getting a little confused in your direction here, not exactly sure what you are wanting? Ok, at my age I tend to get confused easily

I am asking these questions to get a rough foundation so I know what to research more extensively. I wasn't aware this was a layman forum. I assumed people know something about prepping. Is that a mistake by me? One of the things I find hilarious on these Prepper type forums, people seem to get upset at others for asking questions. Well what is the point of a forum but to ask questions and exchange ideas?

 

[Maverick]

I am asking these questions to get a rough foundation so I know what to research more extensively. I wasn't aware this was a layman forum. I assumed people know something about prepping. Is that a mistake by me? One of the things I find hilarious on these Prepper type forums, people seem to get upset at others for asking questions. Well what is the point of a forum but to ask questions and exchange ideas?

Some of the members are in fact very knowledgeable, I was just wanting to know in what direction you were going? No not upset at all. It was a little confusing to me, if it was in regards to writing a book I wasn't for sure how technical it was going to be is all.

If possible I would plan to use solar, wind and hydro combined since most is seasonal outside the Southwest.
There are many variables to cooling a structure, it's not as simply powering an A/C, if the square foot exceeds the output of the A/C then valuable energy is wasted causing wear and tear on the batteries, inverter and the A/C itself thus then add the bodies that will occupy the space so known factors would need to be known, unless one has unlimited resources? In a TEOTWAWKI any off grid power may last 5 to 10yrs maybe 15yrs since battery banks may begin to fail or weaken so what do you do in the case that parts are no longer available, I would seriously plan to make investment for short term powering of equipment and use this time as an transitional period to no power. Unless one can purchase the best of the best equipment running an A/C is going to shorten the MTF of less expensive equipment that's wildly available on the internet. It's fairly easy with the least expense to supply power short term 1 to 2 years but in a TEOTWAWKI we are looking at an expense that's above many of our pay grades here. In my toy hauler and motor home I know it cost me a great sum of money just in maintenance for the A/C, inverters and batteries, in my toy hauler I had 6 batteries at about $400 each, the inverter was $3300 the solar panels on top was about the price of the inverter, after 5 years my batteries started to get weaker to the point it was heating the inverter and cables keeping me from running the A/C unless I ran the generator or connected to the grid. The digital antenna was blown down taking out one of the panels giving me less time on the batteries since it no longer maintain the batteries. Things happen that become very costly unless one can afford the best of the best and even then no guarantee.

It's because of my experiences with the toy hauler and motorhome as reason why I never really gone solar for my house. In New Mexico they have communities on federal and state land out in the middle of nowhere, they are more of nomads and not homeless living without A/C, there were a documentary on them folks they were mostly ex Military in these communities, it gave some insight to coping with the heat

 

[EdwardGein]

Thank you, Maverick. I should add that if TEOTWAWKI started now, I'd be so screwed: No weapons, live in Los Angeles, etc. I'm just hoping that TEOTWAWKI doesn't start for another 5 years so I can be in a better position to survive. I'm OK for at least 6 months in regards to food as I buy 6 months of pasta in advance and have another few months of freeze dried and dehydrated food on hand but there's a lot of basics to pick up/get a rough foundation for in the future. While I don't necessarily think I need a weapon for many instances of SHTF, I realize I definitely will need them to survive TEOTWAWKI. Look forward to your future input.