Treeless Survival

[joel]

We cut five acres of grass & weeds for loose hay, not baled, one summer. I can not imagine cutting by hand on my knees & hauling on my back to the hay barn or roof.

 

[elkhound]

Only "Slightly" relevant to this thread (but was very educational for me). I wish I could show some photos that DO NOT exist of these root formations. I have spent this past summer learning about root systems of trees that their entire root system only goes down about 5" and runs near the surface. What is interesting to me, a near six decades woodfire user, I never thought about the root systems. Truly never gave them any thought, was only interested in logging application. This post is going to be non-sensible without photos.

I can often work these trees that are 4" to 5" diameter out of the shallow ground with no tools just rocking them back & forth for a few minutes each day, till they just leave the ground, including the total root system down to the smallest thinnest tiny hair root. I then set the entire tree in a barn to dry out. Maybe my point is the dried root wad including the tiny hair roots would be great for fire, and I have long considered roots worthless pain in the butt.

 

[Hooch]

I like watching videos on how people survive and live in harsh places like Siberia and Mongolia and there is one somewhere in the stans..
The folks in Mongolia use the camel turds as firewood
I like polypropylene but it gets rank after awhile..I guess if one is surviving so what right..but damb..lol..
I need to get more cold weather tops n bottoms tho..I wear mine out here untill they shredded and full of holes. But I can never have too many pairs..

 

[sonya123]

See, it's one aspect many miss in higher elevation or treeless areas. With some water they might grow a crop of alfalfa for hay but often they grow a grain, either wheat or barley, and feed chaff to livestock to then get fuel to cook with from poop. It's a complete system of survival.

Much of the east coast was stripped to the dirt of trees in many areas back in the day because they used it for smelting the big old furnaces for ores, from iron to lead, etc.

here is something else, a lot of our property is forest, but it is extremely difficult and probably dangerous never mind time consuming to turn these trees into firewood. You have to cut them down with a large chainsaw ( son does this mostly) , I can't even hold that chainsaw and use it properly because it is too heavy. Then you have to cut the tree up into small pieces, then you have to somehow transport if off a steep mountain , then you have to split is ( that one is fairly easy compared to the rest of the stuff, I can even do that with a ax) THEN you have to stack it, then you have to carry it inside when you want to make a fire. People think " oh, we have lots of trees, we can just use them for firewood and stuff" but it REALLY is not that easy at all

 

[Magpie]

Agree with Sonya, its hard work cutting trees, normally husband does it here. For the bigger picture, I don't think I'd want to survive in a place without trees, and certainly can't imagine it. Surrounded here.

 

[elkhound]

here is something else, a lot of our property is forest, but it is extremely difficult and probably dangerous never mind time consuming to turn these trees into firewood. You have to cut them down with a large chainsaw ( son does this mostly) , I can't even hold that chainsaw and use it properly because it is too heavy. Then you have to cut the tree up into small pieces, then you have to somehow transport if off a steep mountain , then you have to split is ( that one is fairly easy compared to the rest of the stuff, I can even do that with a ax) THEN you have to stack it, then you have to carry it inside when you want to make a fire. People think " oh, we have lots of trees, we can just use them for firewood and stuff" but it REALLY is not that easy at all

I have talked a good bit over the years with Gary Walker who use to be on old forum and designs various masonry stoves/rocket cook stoves etc. He and i talked about how when getting older the advantages of these types stoves as they use smallest of wood that dont need splitting and how it takes advantage of storing up all the btu's from that wood that can possibly be.

Having a wood lot thats on rotational coppiceing schedule keeps the wood you are cutting small and very limited splitting and fits the amount you need daily as well. Another advantage as it can be cut with a silky saw or bow saw with no need for a chainsaw and also from wood just picked up from mature trees dropping limbs.Some pines have large cones and make a hot fire as well.I have used them to cook with in a chimney type rocket cooker.A lightweight pack basket or just a frame can pack a decent load that still light enough for anyone to get back home with.

The pack frame also goes back to one of items @Sourdough harps on along with the sleeping bag.All of this has caused me to rethink my design for my new place i hope to build and have it so it runs on little heat to stay warm and if i having troubles as i age i just say screw it and crawl in sleeping bag and not die.I want walls to be extra thick say 8inches or maybe even a foot.Sadly my architect friend who designed stuff all over the globe was killed a few years ago so i lost access to all his outside the box design and knowledge.I have one fellow who can help but he is now 75 plus so i am looking towards building designers on Alaska as they design and come up with new and better solutions.If it keeps cold out surely it keep the heat out as well in hot summer too.

 

[Sourdough]

plus so i am looking towards building designers on Alaska as they design and come up with new and better solutions.If it keeps cold out surly it keep the heat out as well in hot summer too.

Maybe figure on an "optional" access by low grade ramp. For human & dog ingress & egress. Also, you can slide things up a ramp that you could never lift.

Last week I needed to move a chest type freezer and had pondered for a few weeks how one old man could accomplish that task alone. I took an old piece of carpet, put the carpet side down.

I taped the lid down on the freezer, carefully worked it onto the carpet, and very slowly dragged it to a different dwelling. It dragged easily; the challenge was it wanting to roll off sideways.

 

[Hooch]

I have talked a good bit over the years with Gary Walker who use to be on old forum and designs various masonry stoves/rocket cook stoves etc. He and i talked about how when getting older the advantages of these types stoves as they use smallest of wood that dont need splitting and how it takes advantage of storing up all the btu's from that wood that can possibly be.

Having a wood lot thats on rotational coppiceing schedule keeps the wood you are cutting small and very limited splitting and fits the amount you need daily as well. Another advantage as it can be cut with a silky saw or bow saw with no need for a chainsaw and also from wood just picked up from mature trees dropping limbs.Some pines have large cones and make a hot fire as well.I have used them to cook with in a chimney type rocket cooker.A lightweight pack basket or just a frame can pack a decent load that still light enough for anyone to get back home with.

The pack frame also goes back to one of items @Sourdough harps on along with the sleeping bag.All of this has caused me to rethink my design for my new place i hope to build and have it so it runs on little heat to stay warm and if i having troubles as i age i just say screw it and crawl in sleeping bag and not die.I want walls to be extra thick say 8inches or maybe even a foot.Sadly my architect friend who designed stuff all over the globe was killed a few years ago so i lost access to all his outside the box design and knowledge.I have one fellow who can help but he is now 75 plus so i am looking towards building designers on Alaska as they design and come up with new and better solutions.If it keeps cold out surely it keep the heat out as well in hot summer too.

I break out my 0 degree North face bag in winter here..a few blankets on top and I'm pretty cozy on days I work and don't have the time or energy to start up my wood stove.

I've decided I want to do a hybrid kinda underground earthship/ basement hobbit home. Cool in summer, cozy in winter, small stove if I need it. Overenginerred metal roof like a quanzit hut roof able to withstand, large hail, crazy wind and extra heavy snow loads that it will shed.
I don't want to fiddle around with being old and worried about snow loads or being warm in winter.

 

[sonya123]

I have talked a good bit over the years with Gary Walker who use to be on old forum and designs various masonry stoves/rocket cook stoves etc. He and i talked about how when getting older the advantages of these types stoves as they use smallest of wood that dont need splitting and how it takes advantage of storing up all the btu's from that wood that can possibly be.

We have a gazzillion pound Pioneer Princess Amish cook stove, and another wood stove that is old , huge and super heavy too. We burn about 6 cords or more of wood in winter. Our house is not efficient despite insulation. It's sort of U shaped with long hallways and lots of windows. Great in summer, never need ac, hard to heat in winter. I finally put up curtains to shut off the area to the hallways to keep the heat in the living area. We now heat the bedrooms with propane space heaters since it is almost impossible to get heat back there

 

[elkhound]

I break out my 0 degree North face bag in winter here..a few blankets on top and I'm pretty cozy on days I work and don't have the time or energy to start up my wood stove.

I've decided I want to do a hybrid kinda underground earthship/ basement hobbit home. Cool in summer, cozy in winter, small stove if I need it. Overenginerred metal roof like a quanzit hut roof able to withstand, large hail, crazy wind and extra heavy snow loads that it will shed.
I don't want to fiddle around with being old and worried about snow loads or being warm in winter.

There ya go with more of that dirty talk on forum again....lol

I thought about an earthship but they are to big i dont know why they dont build smaller ones.I have seen a couple of smaller ones but still to large.

 

[elkhound]

We have a gazzillion pound Pioneer Princess Amish cook stove, and another wood stove that is old , huge and super heavy too. We burn about 6 cords or more of wood in winter. Our house is not efficient despite insulation. It's sort of U shaped with long hallways and lots of windows. Great in summer, never need ac, hard to heat in winter. I finally put up curtains to shut off the area to the hallways to keep the heat in the living area. We now heat the bedrooms with propane space heaters since it is almost impossible to get heat back there

Another part of my design @Hooch and you sonya is real working shudders on outside and insulated curtains on inside and maybe even shudders on inside as well...call me crazy...but its on my mind.

 

[Sourdough]

I am super big on BLACKOUT Curtains. For many reasons, especially "NO" light signature.......post-SHTF.
I am sure I have a few Blackout Curtain threads on this forum. Found some.

https://www.homesteadingforum.org/s...[title_only]=1&c[users]=Sourdough&o=relevance

 

[Hooch]

There ya go with more of that dirty talk on forum again....lol

I thought about an earthship but they are to big i dont know why they dont build smaller ones.I have seen a couple of smaller ones but still to large.

Lol...isn't bigger better?


Oh I noticed they are pretty big too..I wonder if in order to get all the insulation bennies they have to be that size so all the mass can absorb the energy ?

That's alot of tires to fill too and it isn't easy..but I do love the looks and idea of it all..

I really just want a open space..mostly underground. It doesn't need to be huge either. I'm still working on the idea ..

 

[elkhound]

I am super big on BLACKOUT Curtains. For many reasons, especially "NO" light signature.......post-SHTF.

I am sure I have a few Blackout Curtain threads on this forum. Found some.
https://www.homesteadingforum.org/s...[title_only]=1&c[users]=Sourdough&o=relevance

yes...having double shudders is way to keep bears out or gives you double the chance...plus in my deep wall design it gives me a ledge to set plants on it late winter/early spring to have them ready to go in garden as early as possible and not deal with a greenhouse and all that involves too.

 

[Hooch]

I am super big on BLACKOUT Curtains. For many reasons, especially "NO" light signature.......post-SHTF.
I am sure I have a few Blackout Curtain threads on this forum. Found some.

https://www.homesteadingforum.org/s...[title_only]=1&c[users]=Sourdough&o=relevance

I use them..they do pretty good at keeping heat out too if it's a hot day.

 

[elkhound]

Land of the long day (1952)

https://www.nfb.ca/film/land_of_the_long_day/

 

[elkhound]

 

[Aerindel]

Well, I beg to differ when for thousands of years people often at least traveled to these types of area to gather game and other resources and often to graze livestock even.

They where all nomads, Nobody 'lived' there by choice.

You can survive anywhere.

Some places are just a lot harder than others.

 

[elkhound]

They where all nomads, Nobody 'lived' there by choice.

You can survive anywhere.

Some places are just a lot harder than others.

Some not all....these people had a choice...per first hand stuff and they themselves after being forcibly removed by canadian govt...they told how they they moved to coastlines like other eskimos did and none of them liked it so returned to barren lands as its called.They didnt even like to build the traditional ice igloos we all think of once they learned it from coastals.They held out till it was coldest it would get before building or moving into one.They preferred their caribou skin homes per themselves.

in the end the reason they couldnt stay was europeans destroyed the great caribou herds and diseases they brought. But it talks about how coastal eskimos survived the disease and continued on living where most of these barren lands died out.Dont have full details but apparently it was because they were starving and suffering of malnutrition so bad.It also talks about how they tried living on fish but just couldnt they needed the caribou calories more.

 

[elkhound]

a ramble of various things

Sleeping bags...I just finished watching this years Alone tv show filmed last fall in the McKenzie delta area in NWT of Canada.When it got down tot the last 3 people and winter has started arriving you could see the affect cold had on them.One guy was from Labrador and part native and a commercial fisherman so he had plenty of experience in the cold.The other two were from lower 48.The coldest i seen them say on show was -10f.The Labrador guy never built a fire in his super tiny shelter the others did but said their fires went out and the cold just crept in after fire died out.The winner was guy from Labrador and i believe his cold weather experience along with other native knowledge coupled with him being tough won the show for him and the prize of $500k.He used a snare pole and caught 16 grouse along with all the fish.I believe he had a sleeping bag made in Poland.One of other guys said his big name bag was lacking and wasnt saying the name but said it was not what it was suppose to be.

Technology and adaptation....Around the globe of arctic circle many of the natives live vastly different lives.Take the People of the deer vs. reindeer herders of various countries in northern Europe.Technology could be something as simple as a certain type stitch thats used on kayaks to make hide boats best waterproof they can be that i read about.One is throwing a primitive lance while another has caught and semi domestic the reindeer/caribou to have all resources they need under their control.The Evenki in Siberia are another example still living and thriving.Sidenote on them Jordan Jonas who won Alone show years ago and was first person to kill a big game animal lived with the Evenki for years on and off when younger.When i seen thati knew he had to be tough and no way he didnt learn many skills from them...he did and it showed.

Chip and Agnes Hailstone on tv show..yea i know its a show..but hold on..years before ever was a show i use to see Chip on trapping forums showing all critters they harvested from wolverine to caribou to grizzly.When camera first came out he had a very short clip of a grizzly jumping up in the snow and he killed that grizz running with a mosin-nagant rifle.Anyway all that to say i seen them do an adaption to teepee by lining it with old sleeping bags to hold heat in longer...it was colorful inside and looked like a patch work quilt of sorts. Outside was either caribou hide or canvas..i forget now its been years ago.

Back in the day many natives used whatever firearm they could get i seen several using old 222 Remington killing caribou,seals and once in a very old film Eskimo killed a polar bea with one..if i am remembering correctly Eastman the wildlife photographer filmed that scene/hunt.

Learning,skills and knowledge being passed down and adapting is a thing.

 

[sonya123]

Another part of my design @Hooch and you sonya is real working shudders on outside and insulated curtains on inside and maybe even shudders on inside as well...call me crazy...but its on my mind.

they have roll down shudders in Germany, those are great. But never seen anything like it in the US and if they do have them it would probably cost a small fortune. We have a ton of windows

 

[forcast]

Maybe figure on an "optional" access by low grade ramp. For human & dog ingress & egress. Also, you can slide things up a ramp that you could never lift.

Last week I needed to move a chest type freezer and had pondered for a few weeks how one old man could accomplish that task alone. I took an old piece of carpet, put the carpet side down.

I taped the lid down on the freezer, carefully worked it onto the carpet, and very slowly dragged it to a different dwelling. It dragged easily; the challenge was it wanting to roll off sideways.

I understand the days of figuring out how to do it alone. My dog room washer started leaking when I was in the hospital. My son put one of the dog create plastic bottoms under the washer to catch the water. Ya had to use a shop vac to drain the water. Anyway got a new washer. Stupid me didnt have the delivery men hook it up. Now 3 weeks later im trying to think I dont want to bust the create bottom. They are kinda pricey to replace. So I just visit my new and old washer from time to time.

 

[elkhound]

This is very old short film. What i find interesting is how guy gets in edge of water along coast.Today i see folks going ballistic over the slightest getting wet..i know you dont want to get wet in cold but yet all these old film show eskimos in skin boots...i seen the women hanging boots on line to dry and she then had to dip in water to soften them up to wear the next day.The people of the deer said the women would get up in dead of winter and chew on the boots to give flexibility for husbands to be able to get them on and flex to go hunt and provide food for the family.

Also note guy uses a grapple hook or big treble hook to pull seal in after being shot out in ocean.I seen various people both modern and primitive using the same basic set up.I think its an overlooked item and skill especially if you think you might shoot ducks and geese in WROL situation.

 

[elkhound]

This is documentary titled Tuktu- land of a thousand fishes and was filmed in 66/67 and came out in 68.This will show up as a single video but its a playlist and theres 12/13 parts to it. Its full of survival stuff.

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

I live in an old school. It is very well built and insulated except for the windows. Although they are modern double pane glass, they are 4'2" high and 7' wide. There are six this size. The windows are in 3 sections with the middle section opening outwards. The 2 side sections do not move.

We built insulated sliding panels and tracks in front of the windows. The middle section slides over if we want to open the window, or, they can all be removed. We had the same 100° heat this summer as down south. We never had to use an air conditioner. Inside temps never went over 72°F.

We are now building a 2nd set of heavier duty insulated shutters to go over the outside of the windows as well, for winter, to keep an air gap around the metal frames and prevent condensation build up. This should keep heat loss to a bare minimum.

Added benefits are privacy, total blackout and no broken windows.

 

[Aerindel]

they have roll down shudders in Germany, those are great. But never seen anything like it in the US and if they do have them it would probably cost a small fortune. We have a ton of windows

I really like those!

You are right though, they would probably be a thousand dollars a pop here.

 

[Aerindel]

I live in an old school. It is very well built and insulated except for the windows. Although they are modern double pane glass, they are 4'2" high and 7' wide. There are six this size. The windows are in 3 sections with the middle section opening outwards. The 2 side sections do not move.

We built insulated sliding panels and tracks in front of the windows. The middle section slides over if we want to open the window, or, they can all be removed. We had the same 100° heat this summer as down south. We never had to use an air conditioner. Inside temps never went over 72°F.

We are now building a 2nd set of heavier duty insulated shutters to go over the outside of the windows as well, for winter, to keep an air gap around the metal frames and prevent condensation build up. This should keep heat loss to a bare minimum.

Added benefits are privacy, total blackout and no broken windows.

I would just take them out and build walls in the holes.

 

[ClemKadiddlehopper]

Then you lose the options of light and fresh air. These panels can be opened as desired.

 

[Aerindel]

Then you lose the options of light and fresh air. These panels can be opened as desired.

Go outside.

 

[Aerindel]

Go outside.

I joke, but its true that one thing I regret, is that the whole time I was building my house, people kept trying to talk me into more windows and skylights....and I listened.

And then over the years, have found myself walling them up because in the summer its too hot to have them open, I have curtains over them all the time to keep the sun out, and in the winter they are cold spots in the walls.

And mind you, this is even with 'Aerindel Doctrine' windows that are all small and narrow to start with.