You helped push me past my hesitation, so we're adding 3 small scale experiments we've been considering for a while and we'll see if any are worth the effort or difficulties?! Fortunately, we have both adults and teens interested in taking on the projects and they are tasked with showing the math as to whether we expand or abandon each. The first is "fish farming" (a tough sell for me,) then a small number of chickens, and lastly, a small number of rabbits. My concern for all is the recycling of the waste in our closed environment. Feed storage shouldn't be a problem, but we'll only keep a little ahead so we don't waste a bunch until we determine which of the experiments we want to scale up (if any...or maybe all?!)
Anyone had group of 100+ for more than 10 years?
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You helped push me past my hesitation, so we're adding 3 small scale experiments we've been considering for a while and we'll see if any are worth the effort or difficulties?! Fortunately, we have both adults and teens interested in taking on the projects and they are tasked with showing the math as to whether we expand or abandon each. The first is "fish farming" (a tough sell for me,) then a small number of chickens, and lastly, a small number of rabbits. My concern for all is the recycling of the waste in our closed environment. Feed storage shouldn't be a problem, but we'll only keep a little ahead so we don't waste a bunch until we determine which of the experiments we want to scale up (if any...or maybe all?!)
Any of these things have worked so far?!
Hi Folks, I'm new at this site. Our fall back retreat in Florida has been completed for several years.
We are 40 adults (not counting the young'uns). We can handle 20 more adults easily.
Our link is below. See Group Survival tab for what and how we did it.
By the way, don't scold me. All references to location are red herrings other than the city.
I have been searching for years for another group to learn from but have yet to find any at all until now.
It would be great if I could see your approaches to organization and leadership. Thanks.
We are 40 adults (not counting the young'uns). We can handle 20 more adults easily.
Our link is below. See Group Survival tab for what and how we did it.
By the way, don't scold me. All references to location are red herrings other than the city.
I have been searching for years for another group to learn from but have yet to find any at all until now.
It would be great if I could see your approaches to organization and leadership. Thanks.
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Our group has been going for over 20 years, with no issues, so our methods work for us. That said, it very well may not work for others, as our dynamic is different.
The original 16 families involved had known each other for a long time. Many of us served together, several of us had worked together on a major PD, and been involved in gunfights together. Those kinds of relationships.
Requirements for new members are extremely stringent, and the entire process to be invited takes over a year, and requires a couple of votes, one of which must be unanimous.
The organization is kind of parliamentarian, with each family having a representative. There are SME's for various things (think Department Heads), which have a ton of leeway in their specialties. As an example, we have a Doctor in charge of Medical, who oversees all of the other medical personnel, when it comes to medical issues (quarantine procedures, staffing of the clinic, medical training for the rest of the group). These SME's report to the Council regularly to keep them up to date on issues, request funding, etc.
Our bylaws are extensive, and were all voted on by the membership. Family reps may change - but their vote is binding to the family in question. As an example, my wife may be the Rep for my family, but if she is unavailable to attend, I can go in her place. Whatever vote I make on issues is honored by her, and anyone else in my family. Most families hold mini-elections every year or so, to determine who they want representing them.
Realistically, the Council acts very much like a Board of Directors, with their only real purpose being to receive reports from the various SME's, oversee finances, and approve major purchases. The assigned SME's are really the ones in charge, and depending on the situation, different SME's will be the one everyone turns to.
If there is a security threat, the current Security Head has final say. In a medical emergency, the Medical Head does.
Now, we're all grownups, and this is a voluntary alliance, so the actual departments all work in a very democratic fashion. Our Security Head will not be ignoring our former SF guys when it comes to issues they are experts in, as an example. Our Medical Head won't ignore input from the other doctors or nurses, or medics. But, once a course of action is determined, the Heads are in charge of getting it done, with the ability to delegate.
If I am working on a construction project, I'm doing what the project managers want. If I'm helping in one of the fields, I do what our farming folks say.
It requires a large degree of trust that our SME's are, in fact, subject matter experts. They wouldn't be part of the group if they weren't, so that part is easy.
We currently have two full generations that have, or are growing up as part of the group, and we have a very solid training/mentoring program for them.
We have baseline standards for everyone, and specialty standards for specialists - everyone needs to be capable of hitting certain shooting benchmarks, with people who specialize in Security having more stringent standards. Everyone needs to have 1st responder/TCCC/CPR certs at a minimum, with EMT-B being highly encouraged. Medical specialists are required to have EMT-B to start.
It's very hard to explain in a (relatively) short post, as it is fairly intricate, but those are the highlights. We have an extremely eclectic group of professionals, so finding SME's that can get any project done is pretty easy.
The original 16 families involved had known each other for a long time. Many of us served together, several of us had worked together on a major PD, and been involved in gunfights together. Those kinds of relationships.
Requirements for new members are extremely stringent, and the entire process to be invited takes over a year, and requires a couple of votes, one of which must be unanimous.
The organization is kind of parliamentarian, with each family having a representative. There are SME's for various things (think Department Heads), which have a ton of leeway in their specialties. As an example, we have a Doctor in charge of Medical, who oversees all of the other medical personnel, when it comes to medical issues (quarantine procedures, staffing of the clinic, medical training for the rest of the group). These SME's report to the Council regularly to keep them up to date on issues, request funding, etc.
Our bylaws are extensive, and were all voted on by the membership. Family reps may change - but their vote is binding to the family in question. As an example, my wife may be the Rep for my family, but if she is unavailable to attend, I can go in her place. Whatever vote I make on issues is honored by her, and anyone else in my family. Most families hold mini-elections every year or so, to determine who they want representing them.
Realistically, the Council acts very much like a Board of Directors, with their only real purpose being to receive reports from the various SME's, oversee finances, and approve major purchases. The assigned SME's are really the ones in charge, and depending on the situation, different SME's will be the one everyone turns to.
If there is a security threat, the current Security Head has final say. In a medical emergency, the Medical Head does.
Now, we're all grownups, and this is a voluntary alliance, so the actual departments all work in a very democratic fashion. Our Security Head will not be ignoring our former SF guys when it comes to issues they are experts in, as an example. Our Medical Head won't ignore input from the other doctors or nurses, or medics. But, once a course of action is determined, the Heads are in charge of getting it done, with the ability to delegate.
If I am working on a construction project, I'm doing what the project managers want. If I'm helping in one of the fields, I do what our farming folks say.
It requires a large degree of trust that our SME's are, in fact, subject matter experts. They wouldn't be part of the group if they weren't, so that part is easy.
We currently have two full generations that have, or are growing up as part of the group, and we have a very solid training/mentoring program for them.
We have baseline standards for everyone, and specialty standards for specialists - everyone needs to be capable of hitting certain shooting benchmarks, with people who specialize in Security having more stringent standards. Everyone needs to have 1st responder/TCCC/CPR certs at a minimum, with EMT-B being highly encouraged. Medical specialists are required to have EMT-B to start.
It's very hard to explain in a (relatively) short post, as it is fairly intricate, but those are the highlights. We have an extremely eclectic group of professionals, so finding SME's that can get any project done is pretty easy.
Thank you Disturbed. Is it possible to get a redacted copy of your Bylaws and a rough group size if possible?
Thank you for the time you put into the post.
Attached is our Leadership Chart.
Thank you for the time you put into the post.
Attached is our Leadership Chart.
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This is a link to PDFs of our Organizational setup. The Bylaws are light.
Look at sections 7 and 8 for other organizational documents if you wish.
Attachments | pensacolapreppers Org Docs
Look at sections 7 and 8 for other organizational documents if you wish.
Attachments | pensacolapreppers Org Docs
Redaction is not an option. We operate under multiple LLC's and their names are all over the bylaws. Any specifics, any video, and any pictures have to be cleared prior to release. I can say we are running a membership of over 100 adults at this time, and I might be able to answer individual questions, depending on what they are - as long as they do not touch on location, names, frequencies, or security specifics.
I understand. If no Bylaws how about a rough organizational chart perhaps?
I. Infrastructure
A. Power
1. Microhydro
2. Solar
3. Wind
4. Generators
5. Batteries
B. Water
1. Purification
2. Acquisition
a. Wells
b. Springs
c. Ponds/streams
d. Rain cachement
3. Storage
C. Waste Management
1. Septic
2. Incinerators/burn pits
3. Recycling/reuse
4. Burial
II. Security
A. Training (Initial/Sustainment)
1. Physical Fitness
2. Firearms
a. Handgun
b. Rifle
c. Shotgun
3. Empty hand
4. Small Unit Tactics
5. LP/OP Procedures
6. Physical Security Procedures
7. FPF Procedures
8. Vehicle Operations
9. E&E
10. Squad communications
11. Basic Reconnaissance
12. RON Procedures
13. Equipment familiarization
14. TCCC/CPR
15. Field Fortifications
16. Basic CQB
17. Combat Climbing Operations
18. Area Denial
19. Survival
20. Advanced Training
a. Advanced Reconnaissance
b. Sniping
c SIGINT
d. Advanced CQB
e. K9
f. Waterborne Operations
g. Electronic Specialist
h. Investigations/Interviews
i. Surveillance/Counter
B. Hide/LP/OP/Defensive Structure Maintenance
C. Physical Security of Infrastructure/ Buildings
D. Security Patrols
E. Unknown Contact
F. Convoy Security
G Member Rescue/Recovery
H. Electronic Equipment Placement/Monitoring
III. Medical
A. Training (Initial/Sustainment)
1. TCCC/1st Responder/CPR
2. Team Medic Training
3. AED
B. Clinic
C Quarantine/Pandemic Procedures
D. Medical Records Maintenance
E. Dental
IV. Admin
A. Legal
1. Maintain LLC's
2. Point of Contact
3. Recruit Background Investigations
4. Member Contracts
5. Legal Audits
6. Member Representation
B. Accounting
1. Maintain Group Accounts
2. Assist Security and Legal with background investigations.
3. Tax Issues
C. I.T.
1. Maintain Intranet/ Digital Library
2. Information Security/CounterSec
3. Hardware/Software Maintenance/Installation.
D. Acquisitions
1. Responsible for finding large-purchase deals
2. Organizes/Monitors Scavenging
3. Oversees Inventory Control
E. PR
1. Work with Legal as Point of Contact
2. Diplomacy
V. Construction/Mechanical
A. Responsible for all Construction/Maintenance
B. Responsible for all Vehicle Repair/Maintenance
1. Roads
2. Buildings
a. HVAC
b. Plumbing
c. Electrical
d. Structural installation/repair
3. Permanent Defensive Structures
4. Graves
5. Heavy Equipment
6. Range Maintenance
VI. Transportation
A. Responsible for all major deliveries to BOL
B. Responsible for moving large groups or items
VII. Food
A. Farms
B. Greenhouses
C. Livestock
D. Hunting/Fishing
E. Oversee inventory Control of Kitchen Supplies/Spices/Seeds/Food Stores
F. Run Communal Kitchen
G. Veterinary Services
VIII. Lifestyle
A. School
1. Provide education for children
2. Maintain inventory control of supplies/educational materials
B. Pool/Rec area Maintenance
C. Barber/Hairdressers
D. MWR
1. Maintain recreational/exercise equipment
2. Plan events
3. Decorate
4. Stock/run the bar
5. Maintain tanning beds
E. Counseling
F. Religious Services*
IX. Communications/Intelligence
A. Setup/Maintain TOC/Comm Center
B. Maintain/Test Communications Equipment and TTP's
C. Devise Communications Security Plan
D. Program all Group Radios
E. Monitor/Analyze Open-Source Intelligence
F. Maintain/Update Threat Matrix
G. SIGINT
H. HUMINT
* There is no group religion. We don't care what religion someone is, or even if they are religious. We have a "no trying to convert others" rule in effect. We do have a couple Pastors and a Priest in the group who are available for anyone seeking spritual guidance.
EVERYONE is expected to work 40 hrs a week. If there isn't anything to do in your "specialty," there is a job board with a giant list of stuff. Our Doctors are regularly working in the greenhouses, or, if checked-off, running patrols/standing a post. We have a nurse that fell in love with wrenching on cars.
The above is from memory, so I may be missing a couple things. What is listed is the fit-for-public version.
At our Christmas gathering this past Wednesday, we welcomed our new Gunsmith, his wife, and two teenagers and our new Locksmith/Carpenter, his wife and 3 kids! Both are "Masters" in their fields, both retired military, and both have much needed skills for our growing community! We ate far too much (I did anyway!)
I saw Dr Henley’s post about the movie “Don’t Look Up” and it reminded me of another disaster movie we watched a few evenings ago... "How It Ends"
How It Ends - Official Trailer – Netflix
Aside from all the REALLY STUPID things the character "Will" did, this movie made me think "what if" we had a Mega-tsunami that covered the peninsula with hundreds of feet of water (maybe the one that could come from a Canary Island landslide?)
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth107/node/1609We tend to think we are prepared for many potential emergencies with our heavily shielded facility, our multiple sources of energy, and our hefty food and water supplies...but really, could we survive being submerged underwater? I’d like to believe so, but I’m not sure.
How It Ends - Official Trailer – Netflix
Aside from all the REALLY STUPID things the character "Will" did, this movie made me think "what if" we had a Mega-tsunami that covered the peninsula with hundreds of feet of water (maybe the one that could come from a Canary Island landslide?)
https://www.e-education.psu.edu/earth107/node/1609We tend to think we are prepared for many potential emergencies with our heavily shielded facility, our multiple sources of energy, and our hefty food and water supplies...but really, could we survive being submerged underwater? I’d like to believe so, but I’m not sure.
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Just when we completed upgrades that made me feel a little more secure, some stupid movie comes along to shatter any contentment.
If the peninsula was covered by a wave of water 100 plus feet high, here are some positive and negative facts:
If the peninsula was covered by a wave of water 100 plus feet high, here are some positive and negative facts:
- Our ground is quite porous and the water would probably recede within a few days.
- Our facility has been designed to be completely sealed from water and our air vents are all sealable.
- We have a self-contained source of filtered air good for about 30 days when fully occupied.
- We already have a good number of spare solar cells stored safely inside the facility (In case an EMP were to destroy our entire external solar array.)
- Because ALL of our power generation is external, we have no INTERNAL energy source except for battery back-up, (that doesn't bode well for the months of chaos on the outside that would follow.)
- Our rooftop solar panels could be smashed by debris in the fast moving water if not ripped from the rooftops.
- Our natural gas generators would be underwater for perhaps weeks.
- The tunnel from our school is water-tight but does NOT have a water-tight hatch on the school side
- Our sub-zero freezer in the basement of the grocery (which we depend on for frozen meats and vegetables) would probably be ruined and along with that, our chances for long term survival.
- Preventing the grocery basement from flooding - not built/designed to be watertight.
- Moving the freezer inside the facility.
- Building a new sub-zero freezer INSIDE the facility.
- If the surface water recedes, we could use battery power to pump the water out of the generator trench, school tunnel, and grocery basement. (no guarantee any of the generators would work properly.)
- We could/should move at least one of our natural gas generators inside (off-line and unconnected) so that it could be moved outside (probably rooftop) to replace a damaged generator...it would supply power almost immediately. Comically, we just moved ALL the generators into the trench from the rooftop, but fortunately the gas-line is still in place, capped off. If the wave destroyed the gas lines coming into the facility and/or the State’s pipeline infrastructure, we'd have to focus all our resources on solar using our spares and any recoverable cells.
- Make sure high capacity pumps are ready to empty the basement of water.
- Make sure the freezer is water-tight, have the parts to repair the refrigeration unit, and run drills with our HVAC guy to install/repair the freezer the moment the water is pumped out.
- Install pumps to quickly evacuate the water from the school tunnel OR install a water-tight door on the school side. (or both.)
Regardless, such a wave COULD severely affect our long-term viability. There would be no surviving (large) wildlife to hunt on the outside, so unless we were successful in repairing enough of our energy capacity, we and any other survivors (perhaps those in sturdy high-rise buildings?) might eventually be dependent on the generosity of unaffected regions of the country coming to our aid?
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Dave,
Long time since I have talked to you! How is your fish and chickens doing?
I think you are making a problem that is not exist with the big wave. You will not have this problem I think, but maybe leave one generator on the roofs if possible?
Long time since I have talked to you! How is your fish and chickens doing?
I think you are making a problem that is not exist with the big wave. You will not have this problem I think, but maybe leave one generator on the roofs if possible?
Clair,
Fish hard to tell yet, rabbits much better than expected, chickens - lots of eggs already but we have yet to actually eat a chicken raised from chick to full grown. To be determined.
Yes, I agree, the wave scenario may be much ado about nothing, but I don't want to trap us in a tomb because we ignored that possibility. So we will plan for it.
I feel the same that I do not want to bury my people because I do something stupid.
I fear
total dark or
no air or
huge water amount pouring in or
all 3 at one time.
My fear is poetry?
We need many backups for all these before I am feeling safe inside.
It will be the spring time before we can work on these for this year!!
total dark or
no air or
huge water amount pouring in or
all 3 at one time.
My fear is poetry?
We need many backups for all these before I am feeling safe inside.
It will be the spring time before we can work on these for this year!!
I figured with all the flooding throughout the country/world, someone would have had experience with water submerged pumps?
We have great local resources, but none I've found to help with a generator that gets submerged. Looks like the answer is to NOT let it happen in the first place.
Flood Damaged 75kw Generator- Economics of resurrecting? | Smokstak® Antique Engine Community
We have great local resources, but none I've found to help with a generator that gets submerged. Looks like the answer is to NOT let it happen in the first place.
Flood Damaged 75kw Generator- Economics of resurrecting? | Smokstak® Antique Engine Community
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It took a lot of effort to move all of the generators down to the trench, but the best solution is probably to move two of the generators back up to their original locations above the parking deck. They won't be as secure, but the wiring and gas lines are already in place. This is definitely one of those "don't put all your eggs in one basket" lessons.
A little over a month and a half into our "live food" experiments, there are no results yet.
We've set success criteria and teams will have a full 6 months to prove their food source is sustainable and desirable as a food source.
Each team is working with two breeds. They must choose between those two breeds and show they're getting good yields.
The chicken team is using "Turkens" and "Plymouth Rocks." These chickens have to lay enough good-sized eggs and some will be eaten as meat. Those Turkens are the ugliest chickens I've ever seen, but I've been assured they are worth having.
The fish team is working with Carp and Tilapia. I've actually never eaten either. Their criteria include how quickly they grow, but also how good they taste.
The rabbit team has these monster big rabbits called Flemish Giants and also Palomino (having never owned a Palomino horse, I can't say if they look similar?!) Rabbits are famous for breeding quickly, so litter size and amount of weight produced in the least time will be important.
Sometime in May we'll know which food source or sources we'll keep pursuing (if any?) and which we'll abandon (if any?!)
I hope all three succeed because I would prefer all of these fresh!
We've set success criteria and teams will have a full 6 months to prove their food source is sustainable and desirable as a food source.
Each team is working with two breeds. They must choose between those two breeds and show they're getting good yields.
The chicken team is using "Turkens" and "Plymouth Rocks." These chickens have to lay enough good-sized eggs and some will be eaten as meat. Those Turkens are the ugliest chickens I've ever seen, but I've been assured they are worth having.
The fish team is working with Carp and Tilapia. I've actually never eaten either. Their criteria include how quickly they grow, but also how good they taste.
The rabbit team has these monster big rabbits called Flemish Giants and also Palomino (having never owned a Palomino horse, I can't say if they look similar?!) Rabbits are famous for breeding quickly, so litter size and amount of weight produced in the least time will be important.
Sometime in May we'll know which food source or sources we'll keep pursuing (if any?) and which we'll abandon (if any?!)
I hope all three succeed because I would prefer all of these fresh!
Dave_V: There is no one right answer because each group is different and are planning for different lengths of activation.
We started with chickens and added rabbits. We have a 40 adult group and can easily expand to 60 adults (not counting crawlers.)
One day I explored how much chicken and rabbit food we needed to store the day before TSHTF for the critters. I realized we would have trouble locating that much food. Then I realized the life of the food bags was limiting (assume 3 months ).
I then explored cost & time to raise meat critters for 40 adults. It was staggering.
We immediately gave away our rabbit cages & equipment as you cannot free range rabbits. They will run off.
In doing the math don't forget to keep some warm depending on your location and any location, electrical light for the chickens in the winter to keep them laying. Don't forget the flock molts as a group and goes on strike when it does. If you free range without supplemental food (cracked corn) the chickens stop laying.
Our plan was to free range chickens when the food ran out. But then we again hit the three year life of our large flock.
One would have to spray paint a spot on laying chickens so you could identify dinner or go to leg bands to record birthdays.
But calculate how many critters your group plans to eat a month and then back into how much food inventory for all of them to be raised will be required. It is staggering knowing you only get one trip to the feed supply store and if you wait too long you will be shut out and end up with no protein.
Once a cost analysis was made on meat (protein) raising we retired the chickens and focused on canned protein and beans and rice.
Of course, this is not as romantic but is much more accurate in planning.
Our goal is getting out of the life boat alive and not as cannibals. Some nourishment health issues are acceptable and can be managed by vitamins after several months.
Again Dave, this is not the one and only final answer. It is just things you might want to factor in.
If you need assistance with the calculations email me at [email protected] as I seldom visit this site.
39. Raising Critters For Food. Source
'Taint Worth It.
Our Prepper group has lots of chickens that can be free ranged in time of activation after the chicken food runs out. We have no roosters as they make too much noise. When a hen lays she brags but we don't have neighbors close enough to hear them. That is our plan.
We built a rabbit barn with 15 does and bucks to began producing meat. But we then discovered we could not store enough rabbit food to produce lots of rabbits that would take three months to become dinner. We could not free range them like the chickens because they would not come home at nights as the hens would. So we abandoned that project and gave away the cages.
Here was our deliberate reasoning once we came to our senses. Eggs are sentimental. So too with rabbits unless you are planning for an Adam & Eve long term event.
What we really want is protein. That is the real goal.
The cheapest way to get protein is rice and about 7 ounces (half a can) of beans within 8 hours of each other (or in one meal), each day (per adult). This allows the rice to then become protein. That is why most of the world lives on that stuff! You can buy red, kidney, black, pinto or other canned beans in any of the Dollar stores for about $0.70 per can. This is better than dry beans because anything in a can is fully cooked and requires no energy to eat it, whereas it takes at least an hour and a half to cook dry beans. You do the fuel costs.
So here is the kicker. While you are in the Dollar stores, you can purchase a one pound canned ham (Bristle brand I believe) for $3.00. That meat is cheaper than raising chickens or rabbits for meat! Plus it too is fully cooked.
But also keep in mind you don't have to have protein every day.
Therefore, for us the chickens and eggs will be for fun. But the protein for our estimated stay is next to the forks and can opener. This looked better than running out into the night half asleep and dying to protect the chicken coop. Cans are quiet.
See: Sam’s Club / Costco Type Food For Members.
See Also: Rice Insurance
We started with chickens and added rabbits. We have a 40 adult group and can easily expand to 60 adults (not counting crawlers.)
One day I explored how much chicken and rabbit food we needed to store the day before TSHTF for the critters. I realized we would have trouble locating that much food. Then I realized the life of the food bags was limiting (assume 3 months ).
I then explored cost & time to raise meat critters for 40 adults. It was staggering.
We immediately gave away our rabbit cages & equipment as you cannot free range rabbits. They will run off.
In doing the math don't forget to keep some warm depending on your location and any location, electrical light for the chickens in the winter to keep them laying. Don't forget the flock molts as a group and goes on strike when it does. If you free range without supplemental food (cracked corn) the chickens stop laying.
Our plan was to free range chickens when the food ran out. But then we again hit the three year life of our large flock.
One would have to spray paint a spot on laying chickens so you could identify dinner or go to leg bands to record birthdays.
But calculate how many critters your group plans to eat a month and then back into how much food inventory for all of them to be raised will be required. It is staggering knowing you only get one trip to the feed supply store and if you wait too long you will be shut out and end up with no protein.
Once a cost analysis was made on meat (protein) raising we retired the chickens and focused on canned protein and beans and rice.
Of course, this is not as romantic but is much more accurate in planning.
Our goal is getting out of the life boat alive and not as cannibals. Some nourishment health issues are acceptable and can be managed by vitamins after several months.
Again Dave, this is not the one and only final answer. It is just things you might want to factor in.
If you need assistance with the calculations email me at [email protected] as I seldom visit this site.
39. Raising Critters For Food. Source
'Taint Worth It.
Our Prepper group has lots of chickens that can be free ranged in time of activation after the chicken food runs out. We have no roosters as they make too much noise. When a hen lays she brags but we don't have neighbors close enough to hear them. That is our plan.
We built a rabbit barn with 15 does and bucks to began producing meat. But we then discovered we could not store enough rabbit food to produce lots of rabbits that would take three months to become dinner. We could not free range them like the chickens because they would not come home at nights as the hens would. So we abandoned that project and gave away the cages.
Here was our deliberate reasoning once we came to our senses. Eggs are sentimental. So too with rabbits unless you are planning for an Adam & Eve long term event.
What we really want is protein. That is the real goal.
The cheapest way to get protein is rice and about 7 ounces (half a can) of beans within 8 hours of each other (or in one meal), each day (per adult). This allows the rice to then become protein. That is why most of the world lives on that stuff! You can buy red, kidney, black, pinto or other canned beans in any of the Dollar stores for about $0.70 per can. This is better than dry beans because anything in a can is fully cooked and requires no energy to eat it, whereas it takes at least an hour and a half to cook dry beans. You do the fuel costs.
So here is the kicker. While you are in the Dollar stores, you can purchase a one pound canned ham (Bristle brand I believe) for $3.00. That meat is cheaper than raising chickens or rabbits for meat! Plus it too is fully cooked.
But also keep in mind you don't have to have protein every day.
Therefore, for us the chickens and eggs will be for fun. But the protein for our estimated stay is next to the forks and can opener. This looked better than running out into the night half asleep and dying to protect the chicken coop. Cans are quiet.
See: Sam’s Club / Costco Type Food For Members.
See Also: Rice Insurance
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Coming from the outlook of a non accountant.....
Some live Chickens are definitely worth it.
Dave_V:
Consider having members activate with their frozen meat, all oven grills and some with their freezers.
Start eating the frozen supplies before loss of power.
If fear of losing power and weather is right, dehydrate the last of the meat.
In Florida this can be done 9 months out of the year by using a black SUV and the oven racks.
Otherwise use dehydrators or improvise.
The ****** meat can last 3-4 months without refrigeration.
Then go on to dinner critters or the 40 year life fully cooked canned meat.
P.S. If you find yourself more of a vegetarian don't forget the B-12 after a month or two.
Consider having members activate with their frozen meat, all oven grills and some with their freezers.
Start eating the frozen supplies before loss of power.
If fear of losing power and weather is right, dehydrate the last of the meat.
In Florida this can be done 9 months out of the year by using a black SUV and the oven racks.
Otherwise use dehydrators or improvise.
The ****** meat can last 3-4 months without refrigeration.
Then go on to dinner critters or the 40 year life fully cooked canned meat.
P.S. If you find yourself more of a vegetarian don't forget the B-12 after a month or two.
Proud Prepper: You are right. We reduced the flock and planned to give eggs to members in a lineup so all eventually get them.
But currently we gave away the non-laying flock and have not bothered to replaced them. We probably won't.
But currently we gave away the non-laying flock and have not bothered to replaced them. We probably won't.
While stock piling food is a necessity, so is having protein sources and the ability to grow enough food for survival before ones food supplies run dry. We all have to set up a system whereby we are pretty much self sustainable. Yes, if you can secure a connection now with others (whom you Trust) to trade items you need, but don’t grow or raise, then that will work too.
Chickens are easy to free range and providing protein to them with growing sunflowers (sprouting those so you get 7x more food than just eating them)…raise your own bug protein for them. Things like mealworms or earthworms, black soldier flies and even maggots.
Rabbits do not have to be raised in cages and can indeed be “free ranged”. Rabbit tractors work as do colony setups. Having at least 2 different areas to rotate the rabbits will provide food for them. Like chickens, plant the areas you rotate them to with things they will eat.
The time to purchase those Foraging seeds is now.
Chickens are easy to free range and providing protein to them with growing sunflowers (sprouting those so you get 7x more food than just eating them)…raise your own bug protein for them. Things like mealworms or earthworms, black soldier flies and even maggots.
Rabbits do not have to be raised in cages and can indeed be “free ranged”. Rabbit tractors work as do colony setups. Having at least 2 different areas to rotate the rabbits will provide food for them. Like chickens, plant the areas you rotate them to with things they will eat.
The time to purchase those Foraging seeds is now.
Here is a good example of what to grow for chicken forage.
“This mix contains:
Ryegrass
Fescue
Clover
Mustard
Daikon radish
Buckwheat
Peas
Purple top turnip
“This perfect chicken forage mix will increase their intake of xanthophylls and omega three. Chicken owners are aware that healthy chickens produce bright orange yolks as this is a sign of a happy and healthy hen. By giving your chickens plenty of this forage mix, you will start seeing this change in the yolks and even a denser, harder eggshell. Orange yolks are a clear indication of a well balanced and highly nutritious diet. Recent studies show chickens that free range or forage on proper elements produce eggs with higher levels of vitamin A, D and E and much more. Hens that produce this quality of eggs is what you want to be feeding to your family.
271,844 sales|5 out of 5 stars
Chicken Forage Crop Seed Mix for Healthy Hens & Eggs - C4”
“This mix contains:
Ryegrass
Fescue
Clover
Mustard
Daikon radish
Buckwheat
Peas
Purple top turnip
“This perfect chicken forage mix will increase their intake of xanthophylls and omega three. Chicken owners are aware that healthy chickens produce bright orange yolks as this is a sign of a happy and healthy hen. By giving your chickens plenty of this forage mix, you will start seeing this change in the yolks and even a denser, harder eggshell. Orange yolks are a clear indication of a well balanced and highly nutritious diet. Recent studies show chickens that free range or forage on proper elements produce eggs with higher levels of vitamin A, D and E and much more. Hens that produce this quality of eggs is what you want to be feeding to your family.
271,844 sales|5 out of 5 stars
Chicken Forage Crop Seed Mix for Healthy Hens & Eggs - C4”
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- Dec 3, 2017
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For chickens to become full circle protein, you need a rooster, and you need to incubate. I understand that RIGHT NOW it is cheaper to pick up that canned ham, but if you're not one that's just prepping for a month long temp problem, then you need to keep the protein coming.
One of the "kids" on the chicken team majored in poultry science, so I won't be telling her what to do!
It's funny, after reading Jim's post, I was thinking, darn, are we are just fooling ourselves into thinking taste and freshness are important?
I kept reading and I realize it's like he said, there's not just one answer.
We have a bounty of resources, especially electricity, but there's always a scenario where everything fails, then we have to evacuate the facility and move topside. But still, with an entire strip mall at our disposal for shelter, all our stored resources could be moved up to accommodate our needs above ground. The school is particularly defendable and with the direct tunnel to the facility's resources, we could make a pretty strong go of it.
If everything failed below, we would be REALLY glad that we had chickens, rabbits, and fish that we could move above ground! It actually might save our bacon, so that will definitely be a consideration in whether to keep or ditch each of the three.
Speaking of possible wasted resources, during our 6 month off-grid trial lockdown with a really good number of participants, it was the consensus view that our hydroponics team outdid themselves producing great vegetables, including two types of corn. Shown here is an ear from my grocery vs one of our hydroponically grown ears of corn (on the right.) Both taste great but considering the huge increase in the cost of nitrogen, the pain it is to grow (grow lights need to be angled and raised as it grows!) and the amount of space it takes up compared to other vegetables - I wonder if we might be being too emotional (and prideful) about having "real" corn when canned and frozen would do? They grow us some great stuff, but are we putting too many resources where we might better put them elsewhere?
"Food" for thought!
It's funny, after reading Jim's post, I was thinking, darn, are we are just fooling ourselves into thinking taste and freshness are important?
I kept reading and I realize it's like he said, there's not just one answer.
We have a bounty of resources, especially electricity, but there's always a scenario where everything fails, then we have to evacuate the facility and move topside. But still, with an entire strip mall at our disposal for shelter, all our stored resources could be moved up to accommodate our needs above ground. The school is particularly defendable and with the direct tunnel to the facility's resources, we could make a pretty strong go of it.
If everything failed below, we would be REALLY glad that we had chickens, rabbits, and fish that we could move above ground! It actually might save our bacon, so that will definitely be a consideration in whether to keep or ditch each of the three.
Speaking of possible wasted resources, during our 6 month off-grid trial lockdown with a really good number of participants, it was the consensus view that our hydroponics team outdid themselves producing great vegetables, including two types of corn. Shown here is an ear from my grocery vs one of our hydroponically grown ears of corn (on the right.) Both taste great but considering the huge increase in the cost of nitrogen, the pain it is to grow (grow lights need to be angled and raised as it grows!) and the amount of space it takes up compared to other vegetables - I wonder if we might be being too emotional (and prideful) about having "real" corn when canned and frozen would do? They grow us some great stuff, but are we putting too many resources where we might better put them elsewhere?
"Food" for thought!
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Excellent growing of the corn! During a real collapse we will all turn to food with high calories, less space to grow large amounts and types of food that combined together make a well “rounded” diet. Corn in my opinion is a necessity. Not sweet corn. Dent corn. The same field that helps feed the animals also gives you cornmeal, cornbread, tortillas, fried cornmeal, and cornmeal mush. I’ve bought a lot of white dent corn. It is fluffier when cooked. But yellow corn is good too!
Personally, we have decided to not grow corn the first year and instead focus on other vegetables and animals. That is why I’ve stock piled a lot of dent corn. Enough for two years of not growing. But we would certainly be putting corn into the ground at the beginning of the second year!
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