Anyone had group of 100+ for more than 10 years?

[Jim Costa]

Good Morning Dave-V. Thanks for letting me off the hook gently. In preparing our group I was reminded of my High School days. I was an avid reader as a child but never read the school books assigned to me. I hated school but loved learning - go figure. But in working on our project I was reminded of Algebra exams I took. It was somehow obvious to me that none of the possible answers were right!

In my later years, one of my favorite writers, Robert Kiyosaki, author of Rich Dad, Poor Dad financial advise series once said, "Never fall in love with your investment." You will find you can't make rational decisions about it. That is indeed a danger for all of us, we get our emotions tied up in ourselves.

This thread also reminds me of a book I found in a yard sale. It appears to have been a publication of a student's dissertation. It was a study of various problem solving experimental seminars conducted bringing in persons from different areas of expertise. They eventually produced the following results.

Surgeons complained of cutting body parts (vessels, tendons, muscles etc) in crowded spaces (wrist) and trying to put them back together quickly in all the blood and time constraints. The phone company said we do that all the time in the field with bundles of wires by color coding them. The eventual result was color coded surgical clamps.

A fireman complained that if they could force more water through their fire hoses they could extinguish the fire faster. The surgeon said we do that now using chemicals to thin the blood making it more slippery. This resulted in "Slippery water" where soap is added to water to make it flow better through the fire hoses.

One of the last quotes from the seminar was someone from the cattle industry who summed up his seminar experience. He said before the seminars if he were put in charge of unloading a rail car of cattle he would have devised a method of teaching them to walk down a plank, but now he would just grease the plank and shove them down it.

Another book that impacted my life was on business planning and analysis. The author hit me hard when he said "If you think your business is running smoothly you haven't look closely at it for a while." What he meant is we all make decisions and set procedures in motion, but over time people change, come and go, other events occur and pretty soon your procedure is out of touch.

Thanks so much to all of you folks here. You have re-educated me to continue to examine all of our decisions one more time just to see how they all fit together. Things change over time. My trip here has been profitable, thanks again for the conversation folks.

 

[Dave V]

Yep, speaking of decisions - we re-evaluated the decision to move all our generators off of the top of the parking deck where we felt they were less secure to the secure trench but failed (somehow?!) in the heat of urgency to not consider sufficiently the more likely threat of flooding!

Emotion definitely leads to some bad decisions and "group-think" contributes. We're so agreeable with each other that no one was trying to be devil's advocate!

All generators are now back on top but now with improved security and their enclosure has been Faraday caged so all the advantages offered by moving them below ground have been duplicated. This all came at a hefty price that we wouldn't have accrued had we been paying attention. We want to be able to be agile in decision making, but we'll remember this mistake to help us make future decisions of magnitude.

 

[Disturbed1970]

Yep, speaking of decisions - we re-evaluated the decision to move all our generators off of the top of the parking deck where we felt they were less secure to the secure trench but failed (somehow?!) in the heat of urgency to not consider sufficiently the more likely threat of flooding!

Emotion definitely leads to some bad decisions and "group-think" contributes. We're so agreeable with each other that no one was trying to be devil's advocate!

All generators are now back on top but now with improved security and their enclosure has been Faraday caged so all the advantages offered by moving them below ground have been duplicated. This all came at a hefty price that we wouldn't have accrued had we been paying attention. We want to be able to be agile in decision making, but we'll remember this mistake to help us make future decisions of magnitude.

Having someone play Devil's Advocate on every major decision is crucial. We actually assign someone for each project, as the "Designated *******."

 

[Dave V]

Our new gunsmith came on board in December with big plans for our firing range.
He has moved lightning fast, obviously knows the right vendors to get what he wants and is extraordinary at getting our fabricators to do what he needs and make the transportation arrangements. We have more that 100 containers stored with our fabricators (for future dwellings,) and these containers, while almost new when we purchased them (during the Obama years,) are now at least 10 years old. They have to be cleaned up and custom prepared during these times of labor shortages, but somehow, he already has the end two units on the road to be installed next week! I’m not looking forward to the on-site welding and noise, but I think it will be worthwhile. His plan is to modernize our 25 yard, 4 position range to a 100 yard, 4 position range. That means moving our “retail row” containers somewhere else (he’s already got it done!) and modifying our existing range made up of six 40-foot containers (2 wide and triple connected) and replacing it with 16 (!!) 40-foot containers (2 wide and 8 lengthwise.)
My understanding is that only the outside edge of the eight containers along the inside of the facility has to be reinforced and a wall from ground to ceiling will be built after the containers are in place and welded.
He SAYS it will be insulated so well that you might be able to hear a plinking sound if you're at the wall and at the end where the backstop is and no firing noise at all. (I will believe this when I see/hear it!)
The ventilation system is also being completely redone and there will be negative air pressure inside the range. The new backstop area (which will now be deeper than before) has a bullet capture system that decelerates the bullets, so they don’t vaporize and then automatically collects them for recycling.
The ventilation output is behind the backstop and is being vented into the nearby woods. He says the lead vapor will be extremely low because of the capture system. We had no idea what we were missing, I can’t wait!

 

[Disturbed1970]

Our new gunsmith came on board in December with big plans for our firing range.
He has moved lightning fast, obviously knows the right vendors to get what he wants and is extraordinary at getting our fabricators to do what he needs and make the transportation arrangements. We have more that 100 containers stored with our fabricators (for future dwellings,) and these containers, while almost new when we purchased them (during the Obama years,) are now at least 10 years old. They have to be cleaned up and custom prepared during these times of labor shortages, but somehow, he already has the end two units on the road to be installed next week! I’m not looking forward to the on-site welding and noise, but I think it will be worthwhile. His plan is to modernize our 25 yard, 4 position range to a 100 yard, 4 position range. That means moving our “retail row” containers somewhere else (he’s already got it done!) and modifying our existing range made up of six 40-foot containers (2 wide and triple connected) and replacing it with 16 (!!) 40-foot containers (2 wide and 8 lengthwise.)
My understanding is that only the outside edge of the eight containers along the inside of the facility has to be reinforced and a wall from ground to ceiling will be built after the containers are in place and welded.
He SAYS it will be insulated so well that you might be able to hear a plinking sound if you're at the wall and at the end where the backstop is and no firing noise at all. (I will believe this when I see/hear it!)
The ventilation system is also being completely redone and there will be negative air pressure inside the range. The new backstop area (which will now be deeper than before) has a bullet capture system that decelerates the bullets, so they don’t vaporize and then automatically collects them for recycling.
The ventilation output is behind the backstop and is being vented into the nearby woods. He says the lead vapor will be extremely low because of the capture system. We had no idea what we were missing, I can’t wait!

Triple check the ventilation. It's one thing for the theory to look good on paper. It's another for it to play out in the real world.

I work fulltime as an instructor on the range for my PD. The PD just built a multi-million dollar semi enclosed range, using the biggest name in the business to do it. They ran all the math, looked at the hundreds of ranges they had built elsewhere, and assured us the lead and noise levels would be no different than our outdoor range.

Fast-forward to several months later, and all of us are dealing with elevated lead levels, and several have chronic headaches from the blast. Granted, the ones with the headaches are using the cheapest combo of ear pro they can find (foamies under Walmart muffs), but still...

I am now running Ops Core AMPs with NFMI plugs, and an Ops Core SOTR when I am on the range. No headaches, and lead levels plummeting. Still, not an optimal solution.

 

[Dave V]

Yes, eliminating the lead vaporization, the negative pressure, and the beefed-up ventilation, (and NOT recirculated) is what sold me. We've got kids using the range and none of us want anyone to get stupider from lead exposure! The extensive noise baffling is supposed to eliminate a lot of the noise, but everyone will be wearing at least 30+dB NRR ear protection. Most use 3M 7500 masks with P100 filters.

 

[Jim Costa]

I can see I've fallen in with professionals here.

I am not a real gun person and we have a small group that prefers not to train unless it is time to get serious.

Therefore, we inventoried half a dozen 22 rifles and lots of quiet (subsonic) ammunition.
I heard a rumor that we have homemade silencers for them.
This combination makes less sound than a BB gun.
When we activate non-shooters will be trained on the 22s first.

When proficient we will march them through the woods before daybreak to a creek a mile away
and let them bang away with their own weapons.
The amount of firing should insure they are unmolested. After dark they will return to base.

We have several laser pistols for continuous training on handguns.
They can dry practice on their own handguns for reloading, safety operation, etc.

We have defensive positions already built that require at most 30 yard firing for all but sniper platforms.
All forward positions will have spare shotguns in case a weapon needs field cleaning.

Upon activation we will color- code rifle stocks & handgun handles so if one picks up a weapon he knows what ammo to reload with.

 

[Jim Costa]

. . . And then we have our Gate Whacker for the bilnd person in the group.

We got an old 5 station Football Tackling machine (you can fabricate very easily).
Each upriser pipe is 3 feet from the next, for a total distance of 15 feet, the width of our driveway gate.

The wacker will be moved to our side of the gate.

We installed a $30 12 Gauge Shotgun Alarm to each upriser,
pointing forward. A 3/4 inch galvanized pipe, 2 inches longer than the shell,
is slid over each shell.

Keep spare sleeves so you can reload quickly and search the ground later.
If shooting starts the guard pulls a cord firing all five #8 bird shot shells at the intruders,
who are squeezed in by fake sections of barb wire fencing creating a bottle neck at the gate.

A second pull-cord fires five rounds of buckshot just in case.
The pull-cords are in camouflaged painted PVC pipes.

Why risk your life when it can be automated?

For the gun pros, a third cord is a safety that must be released first.

 

[Disturbed1970]

Yes, eliminating the lead vaporization, the negative pressure, and the beefed-up ventilation, (and NOT recirculated) is what sold me. We've got kids using the range and none of us want anyone to get stupider from lead exposure! The extensive noise baffling is supposed to eliminate a lot of the noise, but everyone will be wearing at least 30+dB NRR ear protection. Most use 3M 7500 masks with P100 filters.

I'm sure you know this, but NRRs are not additive. Adding earplugs to ear muffs gives 5 extra NRR. So, if your muffs offer 30 NRR, adding 30 NRR plugs does not give you a total NRR of 60, but rather 35.

We have lots of baffling. It does nothing for the concussive force. Just fyi. We are actually considering requiring suppressors for patrol rifles. Shotguns can only be shot on our open-air range.

At the BOL, we have a significant range footprint. One 2000 yd UKD range, one 1000 yd KD range, one 300 yd range, and four 50 yd ranges. Then two 360-degree ranges, a livefire shoothouse, and a NLTA (Non-Lethal Training Ammunition, aka Simunitions or UTM) village. All except for the shoothouse and village are open-sky.

When we shoot rifles in the house, or inside vehicles, suppressors are used. NLTA are already hearing safe.

 

[Disturbed1970]

Also, I highly recommend D-Lead products for cleanup. You will have lead dust, regardless of what system you use. Male sure whoever cleans it up is in full PPE (Tyvek suits, masks, gloves), that the PPE is deconned after use, that you don't sweep the range (use a HEPA filter shopvac), and that you wash hands usong cold, not hot water afterwards.

 

[DrHenley]

Most of the lead vapor comes from shooting open base FMJ bullets and conventionally lubed lead bullets. Part of the base of the bullet gets vaporized by the heat and pressure of being fired. Switch to TMJ (Total Metal Jacket), hollow points or plated, and use powder coated lead bullets instead of conventionally lubed lead bullets.

In recent years the high muzzle blast cartridges like 25-06, 270, 30-06, 9mm, 454 Casull etc. just don't get shot much anymore. Instead I'm either shooting low velocity large caliber cartridges, or high velocity low powder capacity cartridges. In handguns I'm primarily shooting 44 Special (home defense), 45 ACP and 45 Colt. In rifles one of my favorites is lower level (Trapdoor Springfield safe) loads in 45-70...you'd be amazed how much damage a 300 grain hollow point at 1600 fps can do. And my other favorite a 6.5mm Wildcat that comes close to 6.5 Creedmoor performance with 10 grains less powder. 6.5 Grendel is similar to the wildcat but a couple hundred FPS slower. And like the wildcat I shoot, the Grendel is an extremely tame round, both for recoil and muzzle blast. Your ears will adore it...

Shotgun or 223 indoors is out of the question...too loud. I use a 45 ACP home defense carbine. With a much longer barrel than a handgun it pushes what is normally a 850 fps load in a handgun to a devastating 1000 fps (45 Colt level), and does it with much less noise than the handgun.

 

[Dave V]

The fish team is working with Carp and Tilapia. I've actually never eaten either. Their criteria include how quickly they grow, but also how good they taste.

On the fish, the Carp are growing a lot faster than the Tilapia so unless there's a big difference in taste (we won't know for a few months) it seems like the Carp may win out in their contest?!

 

[user 7000]

On the fish, the Carp are growing a lot faster than the Tilapia so unless there's a big difference in taste (we won't know for a few months) it seems like the Carp may win out in their contest?!

Carp is best prepared in patties like Salmon used to be when I was a kid. Smoked is also good. Looking forward to seeing further results on this.

 

[DrHenley]

Carp is best prepared in patties like Salmon used to be when I was a kid. Smoked is also good. Looking forward to seeing further results on this.

Maybe if you cook it until the bones are soft enough to eat. Personally I don't like picking out all the hundreds of tiny bones. My wife does, strangely...she said it's "fun."

I actually had a phobia of swallowing fish bones at one time.

Now, if it is a 30 pound carp like I caught one time...it had bones big enough to pick out.

 

[user 7000]

Never had an issue with bones, nor have I known anyone that did.

 

[DrHenley]

Never had an issue with bones, nor have I known anyone that did.

Well, now you do.

 

[GeorgiaPeachie]

Well, now you do.

I’m with DH! I hate bones in fish!

 

[user 7000]

Well, now you do.

But I don't know you.

 

[Dave V]

Maybe if you cook it until the bones are soft enough to eat. Personally I don't like picking out all the hundreds of tiny bones. My wife does, strangely...she said it's "fun."

I actually had a phobia of swallowing fish bones at one time.

Now, if it is a 30 pound carp like I caught one time...it had bones big enough to pick out.

My understanding is, they will just be a few pounds (not 30!) when we eat them. Easy to catch with a net although it's possible we can make great sport out of fishing for the little ones?! As far as taste goes, again I haven't eaten one yet, but in clean water, they're supposed to be comparable to salmon, which would be great with me! They're using Silver Carp, so they should be pretty tasty. I understand bones are an issue. They "say" they can be handily deboned. We'll see about taste and bones when they harvest the first batch in several months.

 

[Dave V]

We have a number of families with kids in one of the services. I'm sure no one would broadcast anything they weren't allowed to, but one soldier told his Mom to "please get to the facility," so she and about a dozen families are already in their container homes inside the facility. Many work from home anyway, so with their laptops, they won't miss a beat.

It wasn't something I actively fought against, but I'm not sure it's necessary yet - but all classes from our school will meet in one of the facility conference/chow rooms for the remainder of this week. It's going to be a lively place with many staying inside 24/7 for the duration of uncertainty.
On the bright side, the food is always better when we have company!

Hopefully cooler heads prevail and both sides will withdraw soon?!

I sure was NOT planning on spending my evenings this week with 52 other people. The good thing is, everyone has lots to keep themselves busy, and no worries about the kids accidentally messing something up because all projects are manned or locked up. I've been pretty busy at the store next door during the day, but I hear things are running pretty smoothly. I'm wondering if this Ukraine stuff is going to drag on for weeks and if so, we're going to have to start using advance menus with everyone placing their meal orders a couple days in advance like we did the first six month of last year when we had our off-the-grid simulation with 49 who never left...but we could plan for everything.

With this Ukraine thing, everything is up in the air. This week we've had buffets at every meal - I LOVE IT, but it's wasteful and we can't keep doing it. This week, we've just grabbed what we need next door at my grocery, but if school is held here another week, they will need to let go of the "this is just like a sleep-over" mentality and start working their stewardships and pulling their weight. I don't mean to sound cranky, but I have a hard time with lack of planning.

 

[Dave V]

School starts back Monday AT the school (just 10 units over) so things will ratchet down a bit at the facility. We decided to maintain the increases we made to hydroponic production and give the excess to interested members. A smart move for preparedness, I think.

 

[wheresclair]

School starts back Monday AT the school (just 10 units over) so things will ratchet down a bit at the facility. We decided to maintain the increases we made to hydroponic production and give the excess to interested members. A smart move for preparedness, I think.

My son Lukas is here for weekend. Lukas is talking to people who are trying to see our sinkhole because there is sudden interest everywhere because they think many many more will start forming and they say we may have a methane problem but I think they can give Lukas testing equipment and he will test instead. I think problem is more in arctic and they are just being sure ours will not explode up. I would also prefer not to be blowed up!

You are crazy to let the school children eat all your food and use all your electricity up! I can not think of even having a school next door to go into our place!!

 

[Dave V]

Clair,
I saw Lukas had posted too. I would ask him to stay off of politics here. I think we stay on topic and hope to better our survival communities with the knowledge some of these folk can contribute. Politics has its place, but it will only distract us from improving our facilities and programs. As for having the kids inside of the facility, I don't believe it was necessary, but I was glad to have the short readiness test and I think it was very useful. That said, I got behind at work, so I'm glad we're done for now!

 

[wheresclair]

Agreed, but maybe some of the people here are knowing Lukas is right even if they will not say it.

 

[Dave V]

Just stop talking about it here or go back to that other thread.

I'm here for ONE reason, survival ideas...to be given ideas and maybe to give others some ideas. I can talk politics at work, but I don't find it useful to try to change people's minds or try to punish people I disagree with. I distain politics and pretty much all politicians. It keeps us from getting things done and as Lukas said, gums up ordinary people's lives. Let's focus on our survival community's self-betterment. So, no more politics here please. Go to the political threads.

 

[wheresclair]

Lukas must return to his job tomorrow, so no more politics!
Please write some more about how you do food. You are like restaurant and have menus? Was that you joking? Sometimes I can not tell.

 

[Dave V]

Clair,
I hate to waste anything, especially energy, food, or water. (or ammo - so be a good marksman!) When we first have an increased group size, we have no real feel for providing enough, so we start by having food buffets - serve yourself salad, meat, and dessert layouts. We waste a lot because the excess is hard to reuse. Later we limit the variety and narrow down what has to be prepared by getting requests in advance. It's all done on a phone app and the app will work inside the facility with or without the cellular network being up. (Or we could go to a white board and marker to tally the menu if we had nothing digital working.) The app creates the cook's ingredient requirements and the "whole shebang!" We just got to see it work and it was pretty amazing!
I know you probably just got up, but I gotta go to sleep! So good night!

 

[GeorgiaPeachie]

…as he will find zero sympathy or objective reasoning here.

They won't even try to see both sides,

Excuse me?? YOU come on here demeaning the folks on this site, but have the nerve to WANT ADVICE FROM THEM? Most on here clearly analyze both sides on a daily basis! But you aren’t on here to get to know the members. You are on here to USE THEM!

Meanwhile the lunatic you are embracing is telling people to take the DEATH ***!

 

[Proud Prepper]

Excuse me?? YOU come on here demeaning the folks on this site, but have the nerve to WANT ADVICE FROM THEM? Most on here clearly analyze both sides on a daily basis! But you aren’t on here to get to know the members. You are on here to USE THEM!

Meanwhile the lunatic you are embracing is telling people to take the DEATH ***!

There all about fiction GP. I doubt there's much truth about anything they post.

 

[Dave V]

Back to the Methane....
Clair, you would be smart to let Lukas do whatever Methane testing those people want. Methane gas is colorless, tasteless, and odorless so if there is any, you could be in trouble or dead before you realized what was happening. Lukas is a scientist, so hopefully he can figure pretty much anything out. But if those guys see your facility, it cannot be unseen. Even though I know you've over-built, I think your building codes are even stricter than ours in the US, so they might feel they have to report it if they see it. It would be fun to see their faces though!