DC Plane Crash

[joel]

I had fourth Cousin on that plane.

 

[mml373]

Some new info: & Some that conflicts earlier information.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political...nother-jet-aborted-landing-1-day-over-chopper

One thing I noticed is that so many talk radio shows had people talking about this disaster. The facts aren't fully out, yet, and I don't see why everyone must be subjected to commentary on this tragic event before an investigation is complete. It's like mental masturbation, just blathering about hunches all day long, plus more "no new news" at the top of the hour news.

 

[mml373]

Also interesting that as soon as it happened, Army said, "No high-ranking officers were onboard. That seemed a strange announcement.

I don't think so. High-ranking officials fly on helicopters all over Washington, DC, all the time. Seemed a pretty reasonable thing for them to say to allay the concerns of all the swamp creatures that one of their cronies might have been aboard.

 

[teeceetx]

That helicopter trajectory was just like that of a missile ... it never veered off course, even when it was clearly going to collide.

And I'll repeat ... something else was going on here ... this was not just a tragic accident!

 

[Magus]

Agreed, it stinks to high heaven, and now we also have a med-flight down.
All those poor kids.

 

[Haertig]

That helicopter trajectory was just like that of a missile ... it never veered off course

Do aircraft often veer off course if they see no reason to? I thought they usually traveled in straight lines as much as possible.

even when it was clearly going to collide.

This would tend to support the conclusion that they didn't realize they were about to collide with anything. Didn't see it, were focused on another close by aircraft and missed the one right in front of their face.

 

[Supervisor42]

Do aircraft often veer off course if they see no reason to? I thought they usually traveled in straight lines as much as possible.

This would tend to support the conclusion that they didn't realize they were about to collide with anything. Didn't see it, were focused on another close by aircraft and missed the one right in front of their face.

One of the intelligent media people (yeah, I realize that is an oxy-moron ) mentioned that the chopper was gaining altitude, and when one does, it goes tail-up, and nose down.
They wouldn't be able to see something in their flight path above them.

 

[zoomzoom]

One of the intelligent media people (yeah, I realize that is an oxy-moron ) mentioned that the chopper was gaining altitude, and when one does, it goes tail-up, and nose down.
They wouldn't be able to see something in their flight path above them.

Ummm, that doesn't sound right to me. When tail goes up and nose is down, you're DESCENDING, not ASCENDING. It's controlled by the cyclic stick.
But what do I know. I only worked on utility/attack military helicopters for my stint in the Marines.

 

[Haertig]

Ummm, that doesn't sound right to me. When tail goes up and nose is down, you're DESCENDING, not ASCENDING. It's controlled by the cyclic stick.
But what do I know. I only worked on utility/attack military helicopters for my stint in the Marines.

I'm pretty sure Super is referring to this typical manner of helicopter takeoff:

I would imagine that most helicopter ascents/descents are done from a fairly level attitude when not actively engaged in initial takeoff trying to build up forward speed, or final descent with forward motion just prior to touching down.

I believe helicopters can drive themselves forward and down with the tail up. You see them doing this "in the movies" all the time when they're chasing dinosaurs and stuff like that. I can't say I've ever "seen a movie" where the helicopter is ascending with it's tail down though, except when moving rapidly backwards possibly, trying to get away from a dinosaur.

 

[zoomzoom]

That's ascent. The helicopter in this incident was more-or-less flying level. A couple hundred feet of altitude is just a second or 2 on the collective stick.

Damn dinosaurs. They've ruined many a good helicopter.

 

[Supervisor42]

...
Damn dinosaurs. They've ruined many a good helicopter.

...It was the drones, I tell ya'!!

 

[teeceetx]

Part of the mystery is solved.

They've finally identified the 3rd pilot of the chopper.

https://www.the-sun.com/news/13434244/soldier-plane-dc-crash-rebecca-lobach/

The female pilot identified as Rebecca Lobach.

Now they must explain how a chopper flying at 200 ft collided with a plane flying at 325 ft!!

 

[Michele My Belle]

For those on this forum who may not know, I have been a "commercial" pilot for roughly 40 years. When in "controlled" airspace, you do NOT tell pilots "Maintain visual spacing". I could be wrong, but I don't think you can enter controlled air space without a transponder. And said transponder turned on, and squawking the code you were given. That (transponder) tells your altitude, and heading and other important information, like your aircraft "type" (and its capabilities).

If the chopper would have had their transponder turned on........ATC would have given them new heading and "cleared" to a new altitude.

They could have told the "short final" jet to abort the landing and enter the flight pattern.

Exactly. The chopper requested "visual separation", taking responsibility for separation from other aircraft.
The planes were lined up in a series, and the chopper was looking at the plane behind them and not the one in front of their face.

 

[Proud Prepper]

Oh FFS. How can anyone listen to Alex Jones? he's gone as nuts as Glenn Beck was a few years ago.
At least Glenn unscrewed his head and dumped the crap out for the most part.

But Alex Jones has been right!

 

[Sourdough]

Exactly. The chopper requested "visual separation", taking responsibility for separation from other aircraft.
The planes were lined up in a series, and the chopper was looking at the plane behind them and not the one in front of their face.

I wonder what the instructor was doing, that he did not see the plane. Why did he allow her to fly at that altitude. I think he was operating the radio communication with ATC not her. (slight chance I am wrong about radio).

 

[Michele My Belle]

I wonder what the instructor was doing, that he did not see the plane. Why did he allow her to fly at that altitude. I think he was operating the radio communication with ATC not her. (slight chance I am wrong about radio).

The helo complying with the 200 foot altitude protocol, alone, would have saved them. The helo between 300 and 400 feet was in error.

 

[Sourdough]

The helo complying with the 200 foot altitude protocol, alone, would have saved them. The helo between 300 and 400 feet was in error.

I don't understand why they were allowed to have the transponder turned off.

 

[Neb]

The helo complying with the 200 foot altitude protocol, alone, would have saved them. The helo between 300 and 400 feet was in error.

I heard chopper pilot say 100 ft could a blast of wind.

There a mystery about what ATC saw re: the chopper altitude. The transponder was squawking the chopper lower.

I have it many times said...

Anyone can screw up but for a disaster, an engineer has to be involved.

Ben
Retired Engineer

 

[Hardcalibres]

I don't understand why they were allowed to have the transponder turned off.

The BH was on a COG (continuation of Government) training exercise.

That means it was simulating evacuation of senior gov personnel.

 

[Hardcalibres]

I heard chopper pilot say 100 ft could a blast of wind.

There a mystery about what ATC saw re: the chopper altitude. The transponder was squawking the chopper lower.

I have it many times said...

Anyone can screw up but for a disaster, an engineer has to be involved.

Ben
Retired Engineer

The tower data shows the helo at 200 feet and the airliner at 325 feet.

The tower normally gets this data from transponder responses......which come from the instruments in the aircraft.

......and yes....even if that had been correct......125 feet is not much of a separation.

There was at least something wrong with some combination of altitude instrumentation/systems in the tower, helo and airliner.

 

[Haertig]

Anyone can screw up but for a disaster, an engineer has to be involved.

Kind of like, "Anyone can design something that is strong enough. It takes an engineer to design something that is barely strong enough."

 

[Michele My Belle]

The tower data shows the helo at 200 feet and the airliner at 325 feet.

The tower normally gets this data from transponder responses......which come from the instruments in the aircraft.

......and yes....even if that had been correct......125 feet is not much of a separation.

There was at least something wrong with some combination of altitude instrumentation/systems in the tower, helo and airliner.

If the helo was at 200 instead of colliding with the aircraft at 325 feet....then it would have been tight, but still a near miss.

 

[Sourdough]

The BH was on a COG (continuation of Government) training exercise.

That means it was simulating evacuation of senior gov personnel.

Do you know when that information was released.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Do you know when that information was released.

about 36 hours ago.

https://news.sky.com/story/black-ha...h-with-passenger-plane-officials-say-13300782


They have got the data from the tower and the airliner FDRs.

The helo FDR is still being processed/downloaded. It was waterlogged........but probably still recoverable.

 

[Hardcalibres]

If the helo was at 200 instead of colliding with the aircraft at 325 feet....then it would have been tight, but still a near miss.

I very much doubt the helo was at 200 feet.......it was in reality, at much closer to the same altitude as the airliner.

But the instrumentation providing indicated altitude to the tower showed their altitude as 200 feet....... and so it may have also been telling the helo crew they were at 200 feet.

The accident may have been caused by something as dumb as not resetting the area QNH on the altimeters in the BH....... because they were using a truncated takeoff checklist for a COG task/mission.

In COG.....time is of the essence.....seconds count.

The crew is simulating trying to get senior leadership clear of DC with nuclear weapons inbound.

With that as their mindset, they were quite likely climbing quite aggressively off the deck.

 

[Michele My Belle]

Trump read the FAA's hiring target favoring Disabilities (DEI) for trainees for air traffic controller. prior to his press conference:

 

[Supervisor42]

I very much doubt the helo was at 200 feet.......it was in reality, at much closer to the same altitude as the airliner.

But the instrumentation providing indicated altitude to the tower showed their altitude as 200 feet....... and so it may have also been telling the helo crew they were at 200 feet.

The accident may have been caused by something as dumb as not resetting the area QNH on the altimeters in the BH....... because they were using a truncated takeoff checklist for a COG task/mission.

In COG.....time is of the essence.....seconds count.

The crew is simulating trying to get senior leadership clear of DC with nuclear weapons inbound.

If they collided, the chopper was obviously at the same altitude as the plane.
You can argue with the transponders all you want, but it won't change the facts.
...And it is obvious which one was where it shouldn't be.

 

[Hardcalibres]

If they collided, the chopper was obviously at the same altitude as the plane.
You can argue with the transponders all you want, but it won't change the facts.
And it is obvious which one was where it shouldn't be.

Once you are talking about <100 feet, the size of the aircraft and their moving parts becomes significant.

Considering the size of both aircraft, they needed to be within about 30 feet or so of the same altitude to hit.

The rate of climb of a Blackhawk is up to 27.4 feet per second.......for a COG mission, they are going to be doing most of that.

The time involved in the mistake that occurred is going to be a few seconds.

The question I would be asking is why do that mission so early in the evening?

If they had done it a few hours later.......there would have been almost no other traffic.

I would bet it was about not getting noise complaints.

Actions have consequences.

 

[Snowman]

Just Curious, what Altitudes are shown in the picture for that Helo...?!?

 

[Michele My Belle]

Just Curious, what Altitudes are shown in the picture for that Helo...?!?

View attachment 172774

200, 200 ,200 , 300, 300, 350