How Long Would Society Last During a Total Grid Collapse?

[montanabill]

In montana they have a saying....whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting over.

 

[Weedygarden]

I have been thinking that if a person lived close to a big lake or reservoir, you could potentially pipe water from the lake to your home as opposed to hauling water like some people do. There are many aspects of this that I have no idea of how to engineer, but that is why there are engineers! I had one thought, if there was no power to transfer the water: would a hand pump at home be one way to pump the water from the lake or reservoir to the home?

 

[elkhound]

the simplest is a cistern that catches rain water and you handpump into bucket to carry into home. it can be a wide array of ways to set one up from IBC totes to buried and be all manual no power pitcher pump to 12volt pumping water into your house pipes.....best is a spring with no moving parts...next is a drilled well with handpump..wide range of them from shallow to deep well handpumps.

best is spring water piped to holding tanks then it runs out of them into house. hopefully all above your home on hill to give great pressure. my family has a multi 1000gallon holding tank made of block and cement.

i will put one in my new home when i built but it will be a hybrid system that will be filled by my well or run off water from roof and operate manual and power pump.500 or 550 gallon tank i can go a long time on that much water...if i use the outhouse and not flush it all down toilet etc.

 

[montanabill]

Lots of variable in water supply, if the grid is down that means there will be lawlessness...not a good time to be out pumping away in the open.

A manual pump will only pump (suck up) from about 25 feet down...deep well hand pumps are avaiable and are pricy so get yours now.

Weather and sunlight. we get sever cold here, even my septic system is 5 feet down. tanks would have to be in the ground or in the house basement to not freeze. All lines would have to also be underground....no heat tape off grid.

Rain catchment. we only get 12 inches of rain a year and some of that is snow that does not melt quickly. Theoreticly catching rain off a large enough roof would be worthwhile but any lines can freeze solid between the roof and tank.

Just things to consider..

 

[Mountain trapper]

Why would I do that? The system is gravity fed. It costs nothing. A pump and the fuel to run it does.
The whole goal is to be as self sufficient as possible, not as convenient as possible. If I wanted convenient and perfect water pressure and other stuff, I wouldn't live here

Sorry, I thought you mentioned that you didn't have much water pressure. I didn't realize that adding a simple pressure pump would be taking away any self sufficiency. My mistake.

 

[sonya123]

Sorry, I thought you mentioned that you didn't have much water pressure. I didn't realize that adding a simple pressure pump would be taking away any self sufficiency. My mistake.

it's fine, we only don't have pressure when someone is filling up a tank or something at the bottom. I actually ( with help of my son) sort of measure and calculated the system one time and it's not great but functional. To redesign the entire system you would need a professional survey, a real construction plan with proper design ( pipe sizes, slopes, valves, flow rates would need to be figured out for a better system) . I could design it, but lack equipment and construction crew and personally I think it's fine as is. Not worth the effort . I am more worried it will dry up one day

 

[Tacitus]

I have been thinking that if a person lived close to a big lake or reservoir, you could potentially pipe water from the lake to your home as opposed to hauling water like some people do. There are many aspects of this that I have no idea of how to engineer, but that is why there are engineers! I had one thought, if there was no power to transfer the water: would a hand pump at home be one way to pump the water from the lake or reservoir to the home?

Well, if they could do it 2000 years ago, they could do it now without electricity, right?! Might take some time to complete, though.

The Pont du Gard was part of a Roman aqueduct that extended over 31 miles in length and carried 44,000,000 gallons of water a day.

 

[Weedygarden]

Well, if they could do it 2000 years ago, they could do it now without electricity, right?! Might take some time to complete, though.

The Pont du Gard was part of a Roman aqueduct that extended over 31 miles in length and carried 44,000,000 gallons of water a day.

Yes, but many of these things that we need to do to be off grid do take time and LOTS of work. I saw that water has been diverted for running water for several millennium. We would need the right decline from the source, pipes to refine the flow, and if no decline, some way to move it, such as a hand pump, if there was no power source. I do know that farmers and ranchers have solar chargers out in their fields to keep stock tanks filled. Solar panels, and all the pieces have a life span, so a hand pump would be helpful.

"One of the oldest known plumbing systems was created by the ancient Egyptians around 4000 – 2500 B.C. Since their lives depended on the ebb and flow of the Nile River, Egyptian engineers created and used a very intricate piping system to keep the water flowing where it needed to go."

 

[Tacitus]

Another problem...the Romans weren't trying to provide water for millions or tens of millions of people in each city.

 

[Aerindel]

What would be the point if failure of the ROL had led to mayhem, destruction and depopulation?

Self defense.

Historically, when countries collapse, the world works very hard to prevent it, not out of compassion, but because a large country will not simply sit there and starve to death, it will lash out, in any way it can, to survive, while at the same time, become a stronghold for terrorists, etc.
In one of the more realistic prepper fiction books I read, the US collapses due to bad economy and civil war, becomes a lawless failed state...and then very quickly order is restored by a joint Chines and Russian force which take over the government and establish a vicchy style interm government.

They are successful, and soon the US can feed itself again, becoming an massive work farm, exporting food to....China and Russia....

Of course, for this to happen, the US would have to suffer a unique problem...without the rest of the world having it as well.

The thing people often forget about a CME, is that its world wide. Every country in the world, with a destroyed grid....at the same time. It would be a classic bootstrap problem, which is not something we've had to face in the modern world. I really think in the event of a CME, the lights wouldn't be back on in our time.

 

[Aerindel]

Why would I do that? The system is gravity fed. It costs nothing. A pump and the fuel to run it does.
The whole goal is to be as self sufficient as possible, not as convenient as possible. If I wanted convenient and perfect water pressure and other stuff, I wouldn't live here

You can have both. There is no reason to convenance, while keeping the relability of the gravity system. Then you can use the extra time saved....to better prep.

I have a gravity flow system myself (lifted by hydraulic ram) but I use a cheap DC, solar powered pressure pump to bring up the pressure so I can use a washing machine, dishwasher etc.

There is a balance you have to strike. Doing things the hard way has value in self sufficancy....but it also costs you time and energy that you could be spending on being even better prepared.

 

[lonewolf]

Self defense.

Historically, when countries collapse, the world works very hard to prevent it, not out of compassion, but because a large country will not simply sit there and starve to death, it will lash out, in any way it can, to survive, while at the same time, become a stronghold for terrorists, etc.
In one of the more realistic prepper fiction books I read, the US collapses due to bad economy and civil war, becomes a lawless failed state...and then very quickly order is restored by a joint Chines and Russian force which take over the government and establish a vicchy style interm government.

They are successful, and soon the US can feed itself again, becoming an massive work farm, exporting food to....China and Russia....

Of course, for this to happen, the US would have to suffer a unique problem...without the rest of the world having it as well.

The thing people often forget about a CME, is that its world wide. Every country in the world, with a destroyed grid....at the same time. It would be a classic bootstrap problem, which is not something we've had to face in the modern world. I really think in the event of a CME, the lights wouldn't be back on in our time.

 

[Aerindel]

Well, if they could do it 2000 years ago, they could do it now without electricity, right?! Might take some time to complete, though.

The problem is, 2000 years ago, they had hundreds of years of experience building up to it.
If we lost electricity now, it could be much much worse than going back in time before we had power, it could be going back to pre-stone age (how many people today even know stone age technology, let alone roman?)

 

[lonewolf]

people are so used to having electricity that they will be unable to live without it.
society would disappear fast once the power grid shut down.

 

[Mountain trapper]

We've managed to live for all of history without electricity, up until a relatively short time ago. We'll manage to live without it again. Sure, many people have become spoiled, lazy, and soft with all of our modern "conveniences", but most will adapt.
Society will be rebuilt. What the new society will look like will depend on how many of the spoiled, lazy and soft people survive.

 

[lonewolf]

it will take a long time for society to be rebuilt post collapse, probably centuries.
without technology everything will have to be done by hand and that will take a long time.
unless people can learn to start again civilisation will cease to exist.
we will have small tribes of people, each settlement will be remote and far from the next one and the numbers will be very low.
thinking people will adapt is crazy, people cannot adapt if they dont know what to do in the first place, experience and knowledge is needed and this will be rare. people without knowledge will make mistakes and some mistakes will be fatal.

 

[ssonb]

If you want an ideer on how complex and interconnected a developed civilization is find a series that I believe was on the history channel back in the nineties called " Connections "
It delves into how almost all modern items are not developed spontaneously but were made possible by earlier decisions and tech.
Did you know that the space shuttles boosters size was determined by the measurement on what the width of horses *****!!

 

[Mountain trapper]

Sure it will take a long time and a lot of hard work. It will also depend on where one lives. The inner city entitlement class will scream and cry and riot and wait for the government, but they will be quickly put down. The bed wetting girly men will curl up in the corner sucking their thumbs clutching their cell phones and laptops and starve.
Some people tend to forget that most people in our country, outside of the major cities, are very independent and will be capable of surviving and rebuilding. Remember, the infrastructure will still be here too. Much of the necessary knowledge will still be there, or available.
Some people also tend to forget that there is still horse drawn farm equipment all over the country, so farming will still go on, just at a much smaller scale. We won't be trying to feed the world anymore.
Much of the US still has a pioneering spirit. We'll do fine. The strong will survive.

 

[TENNGRIZZ]

We've managed to live for all of history without electricity, up until a relatively short time ago. We'll manage to live without it again. Sure, many people have become spoiled, lazy, and soft with all of our modern "conveniences", but most will adapt.
Society will be rebuilt. What the new society will look like will depend on how many of the spoiled, lazy and soft people survive.

I understand your premise but I definitely don't agree, but I do admire your enthusiasm and optimism for humanity. It's only going to get worse and then it's going to get worse than that. Bad news doesn't get better with time. Hope is Not nor should it ever be a course of action.

 

[lonewolf]

different over here, most small towns and villages are just commuter hubs for the cities.
there arent any farm horses any more, some riding horses but no draught animals.
the survival rate here will be lower than in the US, the population is lower to start with, and most people havent a clue where food comes from.

 

[Neb]

If you want an ideer on how complex and interconnected a developed civilization is find a series that I believe was on the history channel back in the nineties called " Connections "
It delves into how almost all modern items are not developed spontaneously but were made possible by earlier decisions and tech.
Did you know that the space shuttles boosters size was determined by the measurement on what the width of horses *****!!

James Burke

Was on PBS in late 70s

We purchased the series on disk.

Railroad track spacing goes back to Rome and chariots.

Ben

 

[ssonb]

Thank ya feller, I knowed it was from some egumikacu....ejumac.. Oh ferget it it was a skoolin show.

 

[Neb]

Thank ya feller, I knowed it was from some egumikacu....ejumac.. Oh ferget it it was a skoolin show.

Episode 1 is what got me started prepping before prepping was invented.



It also influenced my decision to study physics, electrical engineering and material science engineering. Knowledge allows us to avoid mistakes in the process of rebuilding.

Ben

 

[TMT Tactical]

Time, tools and knowledge will determine the survival rate and the rate for society rebuilding. Time will be the killer, literally. Remember, three day without water and three weeks without food. A sudden national / international grid down and the clock starts the countdown. With our just in time delivery system, how long before the stores and warehouses are emptied out? Stored frozen and refrigerated supplies will go bad very quickly. There will not be much in the way of riots, as there will not be any form of transportation or the ability to contact others to gather for a riot. No active protests. There will local looting and mayhem but no more organized looting. In the cities, it will be every man for themselves. Fires will run rampant, due to careless people and the unchecked pyromaniacs. Again time will be working against any government / law enforcement / military being able to mitigate the chaos. The individual prepper in the cities will be screwed, as they will not be able defend what little they have. Suburban prepper will suffer the same fate. Only rural preppers will have any chance. Eventually, society will start to rebuild but that will be decades if not generations.

 

[Aerindel]

It could take.....literally forever to rebuild civilization. Depending on how far back we are knocked.

There are many species, and resources that mankind used to get where where are now....that simply no longer exist.

If you think of civilization climbing a ladder, what we have done is cut out some of the rungs behind us as we climbed. Knocked back to the bottom, there may be no way up again.

This is an unknown, we only have our timeline to use as reference. We don't know if the ladder we used is the only one we could have used or not. Maybe we can skip some steps next time. Maybe not.

 

[Hardcalibres]

It could take.....literally forever to rebuild civilization. Depending on how far back we are knocked.

There are many species, and resources that mankind used to get where where are now....that simply no longer exist.

If you think of civilization climbing a ladder, what we have done is cut out some of the rungs behind us as we climbed. Knocked back to the bottom, there may be no way up again.

This is an unknown, we only have our timeline to use as reference. We don't know if the ladder we used is the only one we could have used or not. Maybe we can skip some steps next time. Maybe not.

Good analogy.......here is another.

A man becomes a billionaire over decades.....but then something goes wrong and he goes bankrupt.

Surely since he knows how to become a billionaire and has already done it before......he can just do it again.

But they almost never do.....because he has changed.....the world has changed.......virtually everything that matters has changed.

Humans are very poor at turning the clock back.......history has proven that.

 

[lonewolf]

we have come so far as a society, much further than previous civilisations, that we have much further to fall .
nations are so intertwined these days that if one nation falls they all fall.

 

[ssonb]

The human race has survived quite a few collapses that were so bad that the species itself was in danger.
The black ages after the fall of the Roman empire does not count that societal upheaval was just a regional episode the Chinese, Arabic and South American cultures this change had very little effect upon them.
Now when you have a global upheaval for many decades the sole effort of any of the collections of survivors is reduced to the basics that we all discuss here
Water, fire,food,shelter and protection. Under those circumstances engineering enterprises are sometimes reduced to building bows,arrows and napping stones in other areas someone may have saved and passed down the basic skill on blacksmithing.
A lot of us think "Hey we could just salvage a lot of the old tech and get a jumpstart."
It seems that when these events happened even our archeological digs and research finds only dust,ashes,bones and bits and pieces that only contribute more questions and mystery to the very ancient human experience.
It seems that the cataclysmic events like these so shock the human psychological makeup that there is an effect that resembles a collective amnesia.

 

[elkhound]

 

[Magus]

Civilization is overrated.