Limestone County teachers learn how to use batons, pepper spray...

[rbbeers]

We need a LOT more of this...

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2016/01/limestone_county_teachers_lear.html

 

[EasyCZ_tfa]

Good on them!

 

[Supervisor42]

We need a LOT more of this...

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2016/01/limestone_county_teachers_lear.html

Want more?
Screw batons and strobe lights, here in Marshall county they are getting guns:
http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2018/02/rep_will_ainsworth_rounds_up_s.html

"Parents, students and the public would not be told which teachers are certified to carry weapons, but law enforcement would know", Ainsworth said.

Marshall County Sheriff Scott Walls and DeKalb County Chief Deputy Michael Edmondson spoke in support of Ainsworth's bill. Walls said school resource officers, who are police officers assigned to duties at schools, are important but do not provide enough protection..."Law enforcement certainly supports this bill and other bills that will help us protect our children," Walls said.

The Bad Guy gets to guess which ones are packing.

Ainsworth, a Republican who is running for lieutenant governor, called his bill a commonsense approach to protecting children.
Fuckin'-A!:green man:
That's one gun law we WILL pass!
You can kiss that "Gun-Free-Zone" killing field **** goodbye!

 

[Supervisor42]

That's one gun law we WILL pass!

The keyword is "allow".
It doesn't require anybody to do anything, it doesn't forbid anybody from doing something.
Today's paper:

And when he wants to thank the "thousands" that contacted him; that be us.

 

[Ten ese]

We need a LOT more of this...

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2016/01/limestone_county_teachers_lear.html

Sure. Bring pepper spray and a baton to a gun fight.

 

[rbbeers]

Sure. Bring pepper spray and a baton to a gun fight.

Scenario...

You attend a 4th of July picnic at a local park. It's a beautiful day and there are at least 1,000 people of all ages celebrating. Several pavilions are crowded with family and friends. In one of the large pavilions, a group of about 50, spanning 4 generations, are having a wonderful time. Suddenly, a large dog runs runs into the middle of the pavilion, 'clamps down' on a small girl's leg, and starts shaking her.

Shoot the dog... in a crowded 'dynamic' situation?!?!

Or, use pepper spray?

A firearm is but one of many self defense tools and is inappropriate in a multitude of real world scenarios.

While a teacher (or anyone in a self defense situation) may momentarily have 'a good shot', the situation can transition to 'no shoot' very quickly.

Within range, pepper spray is just as effective as a handgun. But, spraying an innocent with pepper spray has far less severe consequences.

Best regards,
:smilie flag:
Bob

 

[havasu]

Many of our officers used our high potency pepper spray as a taco sauce. I would say it is at maximum 10% effective for disabling anyone.

 

[rbbeers]

Many of our officers used our high potency pepper spray as a taco sauce. I would say it is at maximum 10% effective for disabling anyone.

Excerpted from The Effectiveness and Safety of Pepper Spray (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/195739.pdf)...

“A 1999 study that examined 690 incidents of pepper spray use concluded that pepper spray was effective 85 percent of the time, according to the broadest definition of the term “effectiveness.” None of the arrestees in these incidents died in custody. Other studies have reported lower and higher effectiveness rates, but effectiveness is a subjective term and its definition varies across studies.”

In other words, the performance of pepper spray is on par with that of handguns.

Best regards,
:smilie flag:
Bob

 

[CrackbottomLouis]

Batons and pepper spray to respond to an active shooter situation? Ridiculous. Allowing teachers to be armed anonymously? Good. The reason these idiots shoot up schools is because they don't fear the consequences enough. Arm the teachers that want to be armed so that people know there is armed defense but not who to target first, quit giving them infamy by making a public spectacle of them, and give them a 1 way ticket to the chair without a lot of fuss. That'll clear this mess up with a quickness.

 

[Dutchboy]

Gotta agree with Mr. Mark, aka havasu, as he speaks from experience as do I. There are plenty folks out there who will not react or respond to OC! It just does not affect them in any way whatsoever, and I've observed this many times throughout my career.

Furthermore, OC is a "less than lethal" use of force, it is not on par with handguns! If someone is firing bullets at you, it is highly unlikely that your gonna point and spray them with OC, unless it's coming out of a water cannon and you can shoot it from across the street!!!

 

[rbbeers]

It just does not affect them in any way whatsoever, and I've observed this many times throughout my career.

Many respond to being shot with a handgun the same way. Hence, my post #8.

Sure. Bring pepper spray and a baton to a gun fight.

Batons and pepper spray to respond to an active shooter situation? Ridiculous.

What's truly 'ridiculous' is misrepresenting the effectiveness, limitations, and inherent dangers of... and the training required to proficiently use... the various self defense tools.

Obviously, I'm wasting my time here... and will do so no further.

Enjoy your forum.

Bob

 

[havasu]

Bob, a forum is to converse, exchange ideas, talk good and bad. Nobody has the correct answer for this issue, but getting mad and taking your marbles home is not a solution at all, so get back here and continue this debate.

 

[havasu]

By the way, you posted OC as being 85% effective per your study. Effectiveness is far different than disabling someone. Yeah, your eyes may burn with a direct 2 second blast into the eyes, but I will still be able to overcome this and take you out. This concludes that OC is effective, because my eyes burned a bit.

I am asked all the time if I recommend OC spray for women and my reply is, "don't waste your money." If you want a less lethal defensive tool, my recommendation is to get a pistol grip taser, that shoots darts. Even then you have a maximum of two shots into an accurate location, with hopefully only a thin layer of clothing, because with anything thick, it will not penetrate and not work.

 

[Dutchboy]

Bob, I am truly sorry that you feel as if you are wasting your time with this discussion, as you are not! It is just that, a discussion and nothing more. People are going to have different opinions and beliefs.

I certainly agree with you that the use of batons and OC can be, to some degree, effective defensive tools. However, batons & OC are as I noted, "Less than lethal" forms of defense and not on par with handguns. You are correct in that there have been those who were shot with handguns, that did not stop their aggression. However, multiple or repeated shots to a person will most likely stop that aggression, if for nothing else, just bleeding out!

If you are one of those who are not affected by OC, no amount of the stuff is going to work, unlike bullets!

As for batons, they are in fact "close quarter" defensive tools and are useless to someone who is shooting from any distance of 5 feet or more.

As a 28 year career Law Enforcement Officer, I fail to see the effectiveness of batons and or OC in an active shooter incident! Simply put, one does not bring a baton or OC to a gunfight!

 

[rbbeers]

Bob, I am truly sorry that you feel as if you are wasting your time with this discussion, as you are not! It is just that, a discussion and nothing more.

I don't see a true 'discussion' happening. What I expect is to be browbeat with 'years of experience' into accepting that 'guns are the only answer'.

My position is that anyone properly trained to use a firearm in high stress situations would be a tremendous asset to have 'on site' during an active shooter scenario.

Unfortunately, many (most?) civilians will NOT pursue the training required to allow 'good' unconscious armed responses to such a chaotic and dynamic event. So, effective LESS LETHAL responses may be the 'right' response and must be available during such events. (Refer to post #6.)

My guess is that it's easier to stop an active shooter than a brown bear... and the prescribed response to a bear attack is guess what?

PEPPER SPRAY!!!

https://foxlabs.com/

If all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail... but all things aren't nails. And, not everyone wants to use a hammer.

Bob

 

[havasu]

Bob, I agree with you. But this is not a bear, nor it is a normal, sensible human being. This is someone who has their mind set to do as much damage as humanly possible, until they are neutralized. Our police dogs were the same way. I've known K-9's that have had their front paw cut off, and they still attacked and neutralized the bad guy. Only after their adrenaline rush was gone, did they drop and die. Also, remember, some folks are very sensitive to OC, me, not so much. You hit me in the eyes, and I will only get more pissed off and instead of only hurting you, I would probably kill you. This is why I never recommend OC to young females.

 

[rbbeers]

Havasu,

I understand.

But, insisting that 'guns are the answer' and other self defense tools are 'ridiculous' is... well... ridiculous.

The best we can do is support the masses as best we can... which includes helping them prepare to whatever level of response they're willing to execute.

Many of my immediate family members (including two teachers) like to shoot guns, but are not sufficiently trained and practiced to use them in high stress situations and have stated that they won't attempt to do so except at very close range. They'd much rather use a canister of 'riot control' pepper spray (25' range) and a baton (or bat).

I have no problem with the 'proficient' being armed, but many have no interest in becoming proficient. Furthermore, many simply refuse to be armed. And, these 'protectors' must be afforded the means to protect themselves and those for whom they're responsible.

Self defense is absolutely necessary... 'guns or nothing' is absolutely 'ridiculous'.

Bob

 

[Ten ese]

It seems to me that the most obvious aspect of this debate is being totally overlooked.

That is the DETERRENT EFFECT of making it publicly known that teachers, and other personnel in the school are ARMED WITH GUNS. These school shooters are cowards. They shoot up schools, because there is no threat of immediate and painful death for them.

The deterrent value of batons and pepper spray can be effectively demonstrated as about "0" if you look at the crime going on in England, in the streets with non-firearm police vs. areas where armed with firearms guards are posted.

Better yet, compare the number of school shootings in Israel to the number in America. The Israelis don't screw around with security, or BS "Gun Free Zones" where their children are concerned.

 

[Dutchboy]

It is duly noted that any and all of my subsequent responses to rbbeers, aka Bob, should not be construed or interpreted in any way as "Browbeating"!

 

[Ten ese]

I will be certain to note that any and all subsequent responses to rbbeers, aka Bob, should not be construed or interpreted in any way as "Browbeating"!

I thought this Talk Firearms Forum catered to grownups.

 

[Dutchboy]

I thought so as well Ten ese. However, it seems that my responses or posts are interpreted as "browbeating" or forced to accept as is, without any counter opinions and or beliefs!

As for this particular thread, I think I'll just take my marbles and go home as again, I don't want to be seen as "browbeating"!

 

[havasu]

Enforce laws and metal detectors at all the doors and windows? There is no good answer, I'm afraid.

 

[rbbeers]

It seems to me that the most obvious aspect of this debate is being totally overlooked.

No, the misrepresentation of the effectiveness and value of self defense tools other than 'guns' is what was 'totally overlooked'.

"Gun Free Zones"

... are indeed BS.

It is duly noted that any and all of my subsequent responses to rbbeers, aka Bob, should not be construed or interpreted in any way as "Browbeating"!

I like a true discussion... what I don't like is "This is the way it is because I have 'experience'."

I have 'experience' as well. But, if my position doesn't stand on its own merits, then, in my opinion, my position is worthless. The position is either good or bad... my 'experience' has nothing to do with it.

I thought this Talk Firearms Forum catered to grownups.

I love 'discussing issues' with grownups. But, in this 'discussion', reading...

Sure. Bring pepper spray and a baton to a gun fight.

... isn't quite what I had in mind.

'Self defense' is much more than 'guns or nothing'.

Bob

 

[Ten ese]

......As for this particular thread, I think I'll just take my marbles and go home as again, I don't want to be seen as "browbeating"!

Now, that is just as "unacceptable" as the previous comment about leaving the discussion.

We all are subject to "outside" influences that may make our typed communications less than optimal. Without the nuances of voice inflections, pronunciation, and facial expressions, this medium is tedious for a definitive discussion on ANY topic.

Sometimes the emoticons help. Sometimes, we have to reach a bit deeper for vocabulary words that come closer to conveying our true thoughts.

Back in the days of the Founding Fathers, penmanship, and written construction were paramount, for those engaged in political discourse. Meanings had to be exact, because the letters of state were sent some distances, and were often maintained as permanent records.

This day and age, folks are pretty sloppy with their language use, sentence construction, grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. Putting a whole thought together, BEFORE typing it, is a technique that requires practice, and lot of proof reading/self editing to get the desired effect.

Sometimes we just have a bad day, and get rubbed the wrong way. I reserve judgement until I have seen a sustained pattern in someone's communications on a Forum.

 

[Ten ese]

No, the misrepresentation of the effectiveness and value of self defense tools other than 'guns' is what was 'totally overlooked'.
Bob

Now you are just attempting to convince us your original statement was right, without showing us some hard data on the actual, real life value of defending children with pepper spray and batons vs firearms.

If pepper spray and batons are so dang effective at thwarting armed (with guns) maniacs, then why do the Police, the Military, the Border Patrol, the FBI, the Sheriffs, etc., etc. etc. carry GUNS?

 

[rbbeers]

Now, that is just as "unacceptable" as the previous comment about leaving the discussion.

We all are subject to "outside" influences that may make our typed communications less than optimal. Without the nuances of voice inflections, pronunciation, and facial expressions, this medium is tedious for a definitive discussion on ANY topic.

Sometimes the emoticons help. Sometimes, we have to reach a bit deeper for vocabulary words that come closer to conveying our true thoughts.

Back in the days of the Founding Fathers, penmanship, and written construction were paramount, for those engaged in political discourse. Meanings had to be exact, because the letters of state were sent some distances, and were often maintained as permanent records.

This day and age, folks are pretty sloppy with their language use, sentence construction, grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc. Putting a whole thought together, BEFORE typing it, is a technique that requires practice, and lot of proof reading/self editing to get the desired effect.

Sometimes we just have a bad day, and get rubbed the wrong way. I reserve judgement until I have seen a sustained pattern in someone's communications on a Forum.

Let me make it clear...

By my perception, the Limestone County teachers were making a tremendous stride to protect our kids.

Yet, the responses were 'most uncomplimentary'.

Basically, they were 'you stupid shits... guns or nothing'.

And, by my perception, the comments were from 'heavyweights'... those who should actually appreciate such efforts.

Well... if THAT"S what this forum is about... then I have no use for it.

Bob

 

[Dutchboy]

Ten ese, I was just being sarcastic, childish, silly or whatever you want to call it.

This ole "Porker" ain't goin nowhere!

 

[havasu]

As I said, this is a great question and I appreciate it. As a father to 3 children and 6 grandkids, how do we protect them? The way I see it, nothing short of rebuilding all of our schools which funnel in and funnel out at the same place, with metal detectors and armed security, nothing else will work.

 

[Ten ese]

Let me make it clear...

By my perception, the Limestone County teachers were making a tremendous stride to protect our kids.

I'm no "heavyweight" on this Forum, and I've NEVER been an LEO, BUT I do know human nature, and these Limestone County Teachers are doing a bunch of "feel good" exercise that is only going to give them a false sense of confidence that will most likely get them, and the kids they are "protecting" killed if they ever face the same situation, again.

 

[Ten ese]

As I said, this is a great question and I appreciate it. As a father to 3 children and 6 grandkids, how do we protect them? The way I see it, nothing short of rebuilding all of our schools which funnel in and funnel out at the same place, with metal detectors and armed security, nothing else will work.

Eliminating the "killing fields" would work. The Israelis have done a marvelous job of protecting their school children.