Tactical walking tips for bugging in or out
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I agree, with children the situation changes, depending on terrain traveling at night would not be practical but one would have to weigh the dangers between day and night travels.
Maverick that sure is a pretty Lynx. Up in the Dakota's they had a snow cat similar that is a cousin of the Lynx. Way back in the early 80's, the 5th Fighter Squadron that flew the old F-106 Delta Darts (with the nuclear typed missiles) were named the "Spitten Kittens"...the cat was their squadron mascot and they even kept them in a very nice little zoo on base. The Army/Air Force Veterinarian's took care of them. So that was a very nice picture.
I've been waiting to respond to this thread. Traveling at night regardless if you have night vision goggles is extremely challenging, in some situations, if your not alert could be very dangerous. I have some understanding now of where Maverick lives and I would say, that I would be walking at snails pace at night, even if I were alone. I know you live in Middle Tennessee, Pslam's but not sure if its in the mountainous region, I'd opt to follow the same rule of thumb if the terrain is the same as Maverick's area, even though knowing both regions, I think the challenges of where Maverick lives, are multiplied because of the series of sharp crevices, steepness of the volacanic formed mountains and the predators up the ante so to speak in dictating movement in that region. That is not to say that the Appalachian's don't offer some challenges, but it would like comparing the lower 48 wilderness to Alaska. I'm only saying this from my experiences during my military survival training in that region and having been in the Afghanistan, where some of the mountains there created challenges that changed our operational thinking. A good friend of mine, will attest to this since he did four tours in Afghanistan and was very well trained in mountain warfare as part of the 1oth Mountain Divisions deployments. Maverick is right, when traveling in his neck of the woods at night, the reverse might be true, you are no longer the hunter, but the hunted. A pack of hungry wolves is just as dangerous than the two legged ones. Out in Texas, I've seen the results of what a pack of coyotes can do to cattle, lesson learned in respect goes out to them.
As far as traveling with small children...your simply not going to be able to keep the pace that you would if your just hiking for leisure. First and foremost, traveling in near silence and avoiding pitfalls such as entanglements, brush are just as difficult on an adult, but with a child, not only are you going to have someone that is tired, but their emotional displacement is based on fear of the unknown...traveling at night compounds this issue. One of my highest injury rates during sick call hours followed night patrols, many of our inexperienced toops came back in with sprained/twisted ankles, knees or foot problems, not to mention the cuts that were mentioned above. How do you think that will impact your groups movements at night and slow you from reaching your objective.
As far as patrolling or working your way to a known objective based on your needs after SHTF, hopefully, you've at least tried to examine the ground between point A and B. In fact if you can't travel it with your eyes closed, then maybe that might be something you'd want to place on your "What to Do List". Ever walk into your pharmacy or grocery store? Have you tried to imagine how you would negotiate it if you had to apply noise and light discipline (no lights). If you haven't try, remember where Walmart likes to place their end caps and their lovely little displays in the main walk ways, if you don't, do. This lesson is no different than traveling to your BOL.
Pick a spot along your BOL. Jim gave me idea about 3 months ago regarding rail options...Gazrok has mentioned it too, in his posts. I picked a spot near a good size town and did a physical reconnaissance of the pitfalls/danger areas of using the rail line to avoid the road that skirts this town. Its negotiable, but has pitfalls and would require slow navigation because of the potential for our vehicles ruining some tires. Ultimately, either causing us to dismount, repair or abandon those vehicles. With that said, we know from that point, decisions would have to be made regarding having to plan a "foot" exfil to the BOL.
I thought Northern Raiders points were all very valuable. I enjoyed them very much and they were a great review. For those that haven't done so or missed something in your own planning...might want to make a quick pencil change. His thoughts will be missed here.
As everyone has said, were not getting younger and the environment will dictate the rate of travel. I am optimist and a realist that traveling by night might be a bit less conspicuous, but delay and possibly endanger our group as a whole is something I am not willing to risk. For me, it is the reason, I spend much of my planning time, running the point A to point B and alternative routes both at day and night. Too add realism to some of the scenarios, I've added stress to it, by not sleeping for 72 hours before making a run. It not only adds to the realism of stress we might face, but allows for your brain to be on the cusp of exhaustion and have to make decisions correctly...of course the hardest part is the evaluation part of taking the feedback of what you screwed up on as a result of the decisions. The harder you train, the less bleeding you will do.
Have an enjoyable holiday weekend.
wish I was as well versed with words as my friend above, getting that much info written down so clearly is in my books something special,
but knowing your ground is something very valuable,I've been running around these woods where I live for ages and still I discover something new when I take a slow walk around my place
but knowing your ground is something very valuable,I've been running around these woods where I live for ages and still I discover something new when I take a slow walk around my place
Unfortunately, guys I would love to be in your position that you don't have to leave your home. When we moved here in early 2001 from England, I begged my wife to find a home that was more outside the city limits...she being the small city girl, opted that the kids education came first and she wanted to place them in one of two elementary schools, both dictated by zoning lines within the district. We bought a new home, but since then, the developer has built more homes and were getting back to that same normal number in our current locale. So, while I've discussed some solutions to the issues with my two neighbors who are law enforcement, our home, despite as much as I have tried to harden it, is a target for any loose gang or group of determined people that want to take it. Its totally untenable under normal combat conditions from my long evaluations. With that said, it is why, our only alternative is to bug out, until my wife is done pursuing her career or we run out of water in our lakes.
So I do envy many of you, who have posted that your not bugging out. For me, its no choice, either bug out or die. I prefer as many of you know that I don't want to be on the "X", when the SHTF...hence why I've prepared as best as I can. Personally, I'd love to have a farm like Brent, Gazrok, or Danil54grl. I don't know anything about farming, other than what I've done in my small garden and ponics projects, but I am willing to work hard, no different than I approached anything in life.
For you all that are staying put, I'd make your property so hardened that anyone that knows anything about operating against a hardened and defended position, will think twice. I'm not saying throw you life away, I am saying I'd make it so hard that even a heavily armored force that has gone rogue would think whether it is worth it under more lucrative conditions farther down the road. If you know the lay of the land and your able to make them pay for even a glass of water, by making it very uninhabitable for them, you can always run away and come back. I know some of you say, that you'd jump in bed with or try to make an agreement, but for me, I'd always be wondering how much I would being willing to sell out to them. I know that will be an issue we will need to face when the time comes, because their is no written rule or book. Personally, if I were the OPFOR, I'd be interested more in working things out with those who could provide...but then were not talking about men and women who have been effectively trained in Provisional Reconstruction Teams, Women Engagement Teams or have been trained as Army Civil Affairs teams.
I an envy Mavericks location for my family, maybe not that he is sitting on land that has a potential for an eruption, but something very similar where the lay of the land is his to master and for us outsiders (to not even try and engage). After seeing his locale, even a very well trained group would be at some advantage to him and reading from what I've seen of his posts, one to be respected. As for Jontte, not knowing where in Findland, your located, I imagine as many times you've referred to your forested area and well I knowing about the wicked winters there (read enough lessons learned about the Finnish-Russo wars)....unless I was desperate...better to keep my palms open wide and keeping moving on.
Just my take, but if the event does happen, good luck to all.
my little place is in the outskirts of our capital, I'm lucky in that I'm suurounded by lots of forrest, and that I love to walk there as much as possible, these days also doing some scouting at the same time I enjoy the fresh air.
it's strange to notice that you can look at some place from two differents perspectives; beauty and defence.
as for my winters here, I admit that I didn't enjoy every moment in a ice-cold forrest when doing my service but later on in life I appreciate what they did teach us, how to build a shelter for you so you don't freeze to death and other small things like getting your feet,boots and socks dry, I still use only wool in winter and my winter boots are large enough so that I can use the old finnish flannelcloth and woolsocks combination, did learn that and did it through my service, no problems with my feet.
I would love to live far away from this city as possible but my work and livelihood keeps me here for now.
you know my friends, I'm very greatful to all of you,I've got so much information,motivation from you and I can only hope I'm giving back something to you aswell,but I'll try and keep on trying
it's strange to notice that you can look at some place from two differents perspectives; beauty and defence.
as for my winters here, I admit that I didn't enjoy every moment in a ice-cold forrest when doing my service but later on in life I appreciate what they did teach us, how to build a shelter for you so you don't freeze to death and other small things like getting your feet,boots and socks dry, I still use only wool in winter and my winter boots are large enough so that I can use the old finnish flannelcloth and woolsocks combination, did learn that and did it through my service, no problems with my feet.
I would love to live far away from this city as possible but my work and livelihood keeps me here for now.
you know my friends, I'm very greatful to all of you,I've got so much information,motivation from you and I can only hope I'm giving back something to you aswell,but I'll try and keep on trying
2 Years ago, I didn't know anything about it either, but you can learn. Mistakes make the best teachers. If you would have told me 3 years ago I'd be on a farm with horses, chickens, rabbits (and we're considering goats), I would have thought you mad, but it is what it is....
Kids and old folks both are game changers. So are injuries or other health issues. I know some folks say you can go 3-4 your first day, but then should stop so yo ucan gather your bearings, stay fresh, and make camp if needed. After that, you can hit 7-10 miles per day depending on weather, terrain, and.... Who's doing the trek. For some reason, that always seems to get overlooked. I tell you what... I was hiking 2-5 miles per day for a year or so. Once I loaded out, I still covered the first 2 miles in reasonable time, but fatigue and set in quick after that. Pain can shorten your abilities greatly, too. Even if you're not gravely injured, the pain from seemingly minor injuries can take you out of the game in a hurry. I definitely think that has something to do with how serious your situation is, too. If you're in grave danger, pain disappears in a hurry. If your hiking from something you're not sure of.... That motivation isn't as powerful.
Great thread.
distance=motivation, most of could propably do quite good but have kids with you, that's something to think about.
how could you do it to your kids like an adventure trip?? less they are frightend better they do...
how could you do it to your kids like an adventure trip?? less they are frightend better they do...
Some earlier points just reinforce how important it is to travel fairly light. I mean, you need gear, but the more laden you are, the slower you will travel, and less miles per day. I really don't think 10 miles a day is unrealistic for myself, alone, and motivated to get home to my loved ones. That's basically about 6 hours of walking total per day, so plenty of time for rest, sleep, eating, etc. So, my 40 mile trek will take me about 4 days or more. Assuming I'm not able to even budge out of work via vehicle....when in reality, I'll certainly drive as far as I can before going on foot.
If I had to bug out on foot, I would head for my oldest daughter's house. By google maps, taking roads, it is 20 miles away. But, as the crow flies and staying off road, it is less than 10 miles. There are deep woods and even some swamp that route so the time to do it might exceed staying near roads. I've been studying the geographical map to determine the best way to go which involves some staying near roads and some trekking through woods and fields - because some of the roads are too close to the busiest parts of this town.
With my age and health, it would easily take me 2 days to get there by foot if I'm carrying anything. In summer's heat, maybe even 3 days. Unfortunately, I can remember a time when I could have gotten there in less than a day and that's depressing.
With my age and health, it would easily take me 2 days to get there by foot if I'm carrying anything. In summer's heat, maybe even 3 days. Unfortunately, I can remember a time when I could have gotten there in less than a day and that's depressing.
Problem with crossing fields, is that farmers may tend to shoot first and ask questions later, especially in a known SHTF situation. So, something to be wary of. Though, if a field isn't fenced in, you should be ok....
Oh, I guess I forgot to mention that the field is part of the property where I'm going. It's over 1000 acres - a hog farm owned by father and son - my son-in-law works for them. I'd just have to cross most of it because their home is on the other side from me.
If you want good exercise, trek the pacific crest trail 2,660 mile long, goes from cali to canada, I don't live far from the trail and spent a week on it on the washington portion of it packing 60lbs, today however I may be pushing it, my BOL is almost 80 miles away, doing 5 miles a day wouldn't be bad but it would take close to 16days, I would hate to trek that just to find out 'oh, false alarm' even by horse I would only do 10/15 miles a day (no need to be in a big hurry)
Its not just moving swiftly to be safe but you need to move SILENTLY and as unobserved as possible, with kit rattling, kids talking, clothes rustlings, panting, wheezing etc in an environment devoid of noise creating vehicles a family will make a lot of attention attracting noise.
Shape, Shine, Shadow, Sound, Silhouette, Skyline will all get you dead. It does not matter how fit you are, or how much gear you can carry, or how tough you are, or how well armed you are. If you are SEEN it only takes one kid with a single shot 22 rimfire on his home ground to get lucky and you are buzzard food. Firepower and Speed are for when things go tits up, silence, stealth, non detection are what sees your WHOLE group get to your destination.
Shape, Shine, Shadow, Sound, Silhouette, Skyline will all get you dead. It does not matter how fit you are, or how much gear you can carry, or how tough you are, or how well armed you are. If you are SEEN it only takes one kid with a single shot 22 rimfire on his home ground to get lucky and you are buzzard food. Firepower and Speed are for when things go tits up, silence, stealth, non detection are what sees your WHOLE group get to your destination.
I don't think its a good idea for a civilian group to set time limits of getting to the BOL or next checkpoint, it makes more sense to take as long as necessary to arrive at your destination completely undetected.
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yeah,time limits can prove a bad idea.but yet,sometimes.a person or group has to set a time limit,just so they can get home.or to the BOL safely enough...but yet,no matter what anyone of us believe and/or think when it comes to getting there quickly or slowly as possible. i believe there'll be times when a person has to move quickly just to remain safe..and there'll be times a person has to move slowly to remain safe...then there's times a person will have to stay put for a certain length of time,until all possible threats are far enough away to continue on to the location they're heading to..
Stay ahead of the Zombies but behind the refugees, especially at the minefields
yeah.let them go through the minefields first..this way you have a good path to take afterwards...
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If I had to walk to the property going the road rout would take 12 to 14 hours, if I had to by-pass the roads all together it would take up to 3 days if not longer depending on weather. I am thinking of putting together a GHB specifically for this 22 mile off road trek, totally a different bag concept then what I already have, so having a specific time limit wouldn't work in my case because of the variables and challenges.
Saw enough in Germany and Ulster to realise I would rather take 3 days going cross country than follow the road, call me a coward but I would rather be a living coward than a dead hero Plan sensibly for the longest route and the longest sensible length of time. Better to arrive after a week shitting in the woods than to be "found" on the side of the road
Plan sensibly for the longest route and the longest sensible length of time. Better to arrive after a week shitting in the woods than to be "found" on the side of the road
