Tactics question: your headed to your BOL after a serious SHTF when suddenly you come around a corner and see....

[Rick]

This is probably the best discussion we had in a while.
Thanks to Aerindel for starting it and hardcalibres to take it to the next level.

 

[Aerindel]

I guess when your route options are limited, that 1500 meter range could be important. But for me, if I can see a suspicious circumstance at 1500 meters, I can probably figure out a way around it without engaging at all, which is the very best option in my book...

What I'm getting at, is that I think suspicious circumstances will be/are everywhere and just plain avoiding them won't be an option in many cases.

There are really a lot of these scenarios when you have to do something but are provided with insufficient information.

Lets reverse the situation. You've dropped a tree, or several on the remote road in the woods that leads to your place, you see (through the scope on your 1000 yard rifle) a guy on a motorcycle ride up to your tree with a backpack and a rifle of his own. After a few minutes he takes out a folding saw and goes to work on the tree....

 

[Rick]

What I'm getting at, is that I think suspicious circumstances will be/are everywhere and just plain avoiding them won't be an option in many cases.

There are really a lot of these scenarios when you have to do something but are provided with insufficient information.

Lets reverse the situation. You've dropped a tree, or several on the remote road in the woods that leads to your place, you see (through the scope on your 1000 yard rifle) a guy on a motorcycle ride up to your tree with a backpack and a rifle of his own. After a few minutes he takes out a folding saw and goes to work on the tree....

If it's WROL, one might be shooting at that point since someone is using force to enter your retreat clearly demarked by obstacle.
If you are feeling generous ( starving family looking for shelter ,) maybe a couple warning shots.

 

[Spikedriver]

Maybe mine your roadblock, and set it off remotely? I'm not one to waste bullets on warning shots...

 

[Spikedriver]

In the reversed scenario where I'm the defender, my conscience would have a hard time letting me live with shooting a man without discerning his intentions. The fact that he has a slung rifle isn't necessarily an indication that he has bad intentions. If the world is in such bad shape that people are wandering, looking for food, he may just be wondering what's at the end of the road. His presence would definitely put me at code red, but to my mind shooting has to be justified to a higher level. YMMV.

Now if it appears to be an armed group, things are different. To my mind an armed group moving into my area always means trouble. In that case, strike first and strike hard...

 

[Aerindel]

I agree. I would have trouble with that as well.

Even if we ignore ethics, I wouldn't assume that nobody would ever find out about such things. One thing about remote places, the 'world' in terms of people is pretty small. It wouldn't be that hard for 'word' to get out that people are getting shot on the road near Aerindels house...five years later when things are getting a little better and I come out of the woodwork do people want to trade with me? Or do people remember the missing hunters who went up that road and never came back? The hunters that the now Sheriff sent off back when things where at their worst and he was trying to keep the people at the community center fed?

My defense in depth plan actually calls for downed trees to discourage 'casual' explorers. And a marked and closed gate soon after with a radio drop box and instructions for travelers.

Basically, if you want to talk, we can talk, but if you proceed beyond this point without permission, what happens next is your own fault.

I feel a 'moral' case can be made for having good defenses. Someone who stumbles into your backyard without warning probably will need to be dealt with as though they are an attacker without question, wether they are or not.

So the ethical thing to do, is make sure nobody can get so close as to be a direct threat without warning.

 

[haboob]

My ultimate BOL is a desert cabin, No trees to hide behind.....or anything else for that matter. My more probable BIL might have some tree issues. I would haul ass backwards. Not much else to do....all this talk about armored vehicles and Ma Deuces is fine, but none of us drive around in armored vehicles like that. In reality, if it was a military ambush, we'd just be dead, but it is more likely to be some tweaker/biker characters and a quick retreat just might work.....esp if you have a passenger throwing lead out the back window....

 

[SheepDog]

The woods along that road have AnFo tubs and pipe bombs all along the road. Decent folk walk or ride down the road while those folks wanting to raise cane sneak through the brush at the sides of the road. Pick a frequency and set a couple off. If they aren't hurt they run, if they are hurt they are likely to die.

If you are coming to my house stay on the road and be seen.

 

[The Lazy L]

... maybe I will just get an AR10,..everything is a tradeoff and a compromise. Still thinking this through. I do have a 1000 m range nearby to practice.

How about a Springfield M1A?

 

[The Lazy L]

….Lets reverse the situation. You've dropped a tree, or several on the remote road in the woods that leads to your place, you see (through the scope on your 1000 yard rifle) a guy on a motorcycle ride up to your tree with a backpack and a rifle of his own. After a few minutes he takes out a folding saw and goes to work on the tree....

From concealment and on a flank of the guy sawing on my tree I’d softly tell the guy if he reaches for his gun he will be shot. IF he complies then I’ll ask him if there is something I can help him with and I’ll see how the conversation goes from there.

 

[Hardcalibres]

How about a Springfield M1A?

The M14 (that the M1A is derived from) was designed and manufactured to be a battle rifle. Back then, militaries sometimes retrofitted battle rifles with optics for use by snipers, but those rifles generally didn't do a good job.......

The M1A has a non-free floating barrel, that is hard to replace with a heavier profile and it is relatively difficult to fit optics (and have them low enough for the optimum).

The most accurate semi autos in the world are being built for use in matches like the Precision Rifle Series (PRS).

There are plenty of web sites and youtube videos showing the guns/calibers and gear that PRS shooters use.

Almost all the competitors use AR clones in 260Rem or 6.5CM, fitted with free floating heavy profile match barrels and good quality optics mounted easily on their flat topped M1913 railed receivers.

The 6.5s have about 300 yards of extra effective range than 308s and a 0.5 MOA gun is always going to be more effective than a 2 MOA gun when you get out to very long range.

 

[Rick]

How about a Springfield M1A?

Not nearly accurate enough for this application.
An AR10 from RRA and possibly even from DPMS, will be more accurate and lighter and easier to use.

 

[Tirediron]

I would need to see that stump from another couple of angles, but from the view you pictured the "ambusher" might get injured setting up his next ambush, maybe it's just the camera angle ??

 

[The Lazy L]

Not nearly accurate enough for this application.
An AR10 from RRA and possibly even from DPMS, will be more accurate and lighter and easier to use.

M1A doesn’t have the “Evil black assault rifle” look and could survive the first rounds of mandatory buy backs.

 

[haboob]

I would use my Springfield 1903. Zero'ed in out to 550 yds. A big old slug. Better yet an A4 model if ya got one....

 

[SheepDog]

The biggest problem I see with modern target rifles is that bullets in use are for accuracy and not quickly killing a human at ranges of 1000 yards and more. I believe that at long range you need a large bullet because you can't rely on tumbling or expansion at those ranges.

 

[Spikedriver]

The biggest problem I see with modern target rifles is that bullets in use are for accuracy and not quickly killing a human at ranges of 1000 yards and more. I believe that at long range you need a large bullet because you can't rely on tumbling or expansion at those ranges.

45-110? Like Quigley Down Under?

 

[SheepDog]

If you have to use black powder that is one caliber that would work. Another is 50-120. With black powder you do need a long barrel to get the velocity and thus the range.
If you have a supply of the right powders and components you have your choice of 30 caliber and up. Nobody will argue that a 50 BMG is likely the best long range gun of all the sniper rifles. It does demand a lot of powder and well constructed bullets but having just a couple hundred rounds would add to any magazine.

 

[Aerindel]

My ultimate BOL is a desert cabin, No trees to hide behind.....or anything else for that matter.

Problem is.....there is no where for you to hide either. If you can see a 1000 yards out from your house....that means you have about half a mile of linear perimeter that someone can show up at and see YOU.

I think this is one of the biggest BIL or BOL decisions.

If you fancy yourself the biggest baddest place in your AO, then you want as much open land as possible are you biggest threat is someone attacking you by stealth.

If you think your a small fish in a big pond, you want your place to be as hard to find as possible.

I present it to people as a question of "Do you think of yourself as the Sheriff? Or as a A Merry Man?"

I know my place, I am definitely hiding out in the trees. I have them growing right up against my walls so you can't see anything even from the air. I count on motion detectors and and area denial measures for defense. I think its the places out in the open that are going to be hit first....unless that place has so much firepower and so many men nobody dares attack it directly.

 

[elkhound]

Problem is.....there is no where for you to hide either. If you can see a 1000 yards out from your house....that means you have about half a mile of linear perimeter that someone can show up at and see YOU.

I think this is one of the biggest BIL or BOL decisions.

If you fancy yourself the biggest baddest place in your AO, then you want as much open land as possible are you biggest threat is someone attacking you by stealth.

If you think your a small fish in a big pond, you want your place to be as hard to find as possible.

I present it to people as a question of "Do you think of yourself as the Sheriff? Or as a A Merry Man?"

I know my place, I am definitely hiding out in the trees. I have them growing right up against my walls so you can't see anything even from the air. I count on motion detectors and and area denial measures for defense. I think its the places out in the open that are going to be hit first....unless that place has so much firepower and so many men nobody dares attack it directly.

real world question...whats more likely..a wrol or a fire where you need a clearing of trees from home? like all fire danger right now is way higher than a wrol situation in my opinion...just curious on your thoughts.

 

[Aerindel]

real world question...whats more likely..a wrol or a fire where you need a clearing of trees from home? like all fire danger right now is way higher than a wrol situation in my opinion...just curious on your thoughts.

Fire is the number one scenario I prep for. Let's call it a million times more likely than WROL.

However, there is more than one way to mitigate fire risk. I have been involved in wildland firefighting for 15 years and do not view trees as the big threat in a fire.

Every house can be saved from every fire. It's just a matter of having firefighters and equipment in place.

The only reason they burn down in 'forest fires' is that houses outnumber fire departments thousands to one, so when the fire comes, there are no firefighters and no equipment in place for YOUR house. It doesn't matter if you have trees near your house or not, if there is nobody there to put out the little fire that starts under your porch from a blowing ember, which is by far the biggest source of ignition in wildland fires.

This is picture I took a couple months ago while working a fire....notice anything?

Not every fire looks like this....but the vast majority do.

Here is another picture. The top half of the picture is outside my perimeter....the bottom half is inside. Again, you will probably notice the difference, you could almost draw a line through it:

You also will notice what I consider a major defense....someone walking 50 or so yards out would not be able to see anything of my place. They could easily completely miss it.

 

[Aerindel]

Here is another really good picture to demonstrate what I'm talking about......trees are not the problem....the most flammable thing here wasn't the trees....it was the houses.

 

[elkhound]

but theres crown fires as well....i see you got green close to house..but..but..but..i seen it smoke green to dried dust too.

best thing i think is a dry piped sprinkler system to help outside home. one you can flip a switch and just pour the water to outside of home.its charged with air and if a sprinkler goes 'off' it let air escape and water charges the system. that way it doesnt freeze in winter. if thats a need at all..just what i dealt with in industrial situation for fire suppression.

 

[Aerindel]

best thing i think is a dry piped sprinkler system to help outside home. one you can flip a switch and just pour the water to outside of home.its charged with air and if a sprinkler goes 'off' it let air escape and water charges the system. that way it doesnt freeze in winter. if thats a need at all..just what i dealt with in industrial situation for fire suppression.

Indeed. I have a very similar system.

I have a 60GPM electric pump, and a 158 GPM gasoline pump plumbed into a sprinkler system. 'Normally' I just run the 60GPM electric pump to the perimeter system, that maintains my green zone. But I have a 2" ball valve that will switch it over to my rooftop system which will drench all my buildings and surroundings with water, with, or without power, and also pressurize an 1.5" firefighting hose and nozzle for direct attack.

 

[haboob]

Problem is.....there is no where for you to hide either. If you can see a 1000 yards out from your house....that means you have about half a mile of linear perimeter that someone can show up at and see YOU.

I think this is one of the biggest BIL or BOL decisions.

If you fancy yourself the biggest baddest place in your AO, then you want as much open land as possible are you biggest threat is someone attacking you by stealth.

That is a problem for sure....although in the desert, less people are likely to show up at all. My more likely scenario (due to distance) is BIL......that is also in a 'very-few-trees' area, a big flat prairie. But has the advantage of many like-minded neighbors with an already established 'neighborhood watch' group....

 

[Aerindel]

But has the advantage of many like-minded neighbors with an already established 'neighborhood watch' group....

Thats an entire other can of worms in itself. I've yet to meet any kind of volunteer group that didn't tear itself apart the first time it ran into a shortage of something. I think most people counting on a group based on proximity for defense will find themselves fighting that group before any outsiders even get a chance.

That is a problem for sure....although in the desert, less people are likely to show up at all.

Yep. That I think is the first and most basic prep. Live where most other people do not. Gets harder every day as the cities empty out.

 

[Aklogcabin]

When our house burned in a forest fire ! These fires can burn the any home. The fire that got us was large enough to create it's own wether. 50-60 miles per hour winds blowing fire balls off the top of spruce trees for 100s of yards. There is no electrical power for water pumps unless you have a genny. Our home was surrounded by green birch. It and hundreds burned.
To say that any house could be saved from a forest fire is wrong, wrong.

 

[Alaskajohn]

When our house burned in a forest fire ! These fires can burn the any home. The fire that got us was large enough to create it's own wether. 50-60 miles per hour winds blowing fire balls off the top of spruce trees for 100s of yards. There is no electrical power for water pumps unless you have a genny. Our home was surrounded by green birch. It and hundreds burned.
To say that any house could be saved from a forest fire is wrong, wrong.

I am of the same opinion. Loosing my place to fire is my biggest current fear and fear on any TEOTWAWKI situation. I live way outside the response radius of any fire department, and their are very few other residents or any infrastructure out hear, so no smoke jumpers will be deployed in my area. I go to great lengths to protect my place including having built my own firebreaks that I maintain. I have just had too many friends who have lost their place even after doing everything they can to protect their place. So yes, unfortunately, any aircraft flying over will see me. But I need to protect my self from my most probable threat.

 

[Aerindel]

When our house burned in a forest fire ! These fires can burn the any home. The fire that got us was large enough to create it's own wether. 50-60 miles per hour winds blowing fire balls off the top of spruce trees for 100s of yards. There is no electrical power for water pumps unless you have a genny. Our home was surrounded by green birch. It and hundreds burned.
To say that any house could be saved from a forest fire is wrong, wrong.

Well, I don't want to victim blame. But I will disagree.

Anything can be saved, its just a matter of your priorities, which you are free to set for yourself. In most disasters, we very often tell victims that 'nothing you could have done would have made a difference' This is to comfort them.

But it is not the truth.

What we should really say is..."Unless you had properly prepared for this, nothing could have saved you once it started"

Perhaps I should say "Any house can be saved from any fire, but only if you are prepared to do so".

As we move forward into a hotter and drier climate, we are going to have to either give up living in certain places...or learn better ways to live there.

When someone says "My house burned down, nothing could have been done" I want to know what it was made of, how many pumps they had, how many feet of hoses, what the GPM of their system was, how many people where there fighting it, how many hours of air for their SCBA's they had."

But I rarely ask these questions, because I already know the answer and all that these questions do is make people feel worse about something terrible that has already happened to them. But perhaps they need to be asked anyway, it could be the only way to keep it from happening again.

When someone survives a heart attack, you don't tell them "There is nothing that could have prevented this". You tell them to change their diet, start exercising, loss weight etc.

But I need to protect my self from my most probable threat.

We all do. But that threat isn't the trees. It's the lack of water, fireproof materials and most critically, someone there to fight the fire with that equipment.

If your house is like most, the trees near it are in more danger of being set on fire by your house, than your house is in danger from your trees burning.

 

[haboob]

Thats an entire other can of worms in itself. I've yet to meet any kind of volunteer group that didn't tear itself apart the first time it ran into a shortage of something. I think most people counting on a group based on proximity for defense will find themselves fighting that group before any outsiders even get a chance.

For sure. We have already lost half the group due to errr... certain psychological attributes (tightly wound know-it-alls). The balance of the remaining are pretty close. But you never know until the SHTF......


Yep. That I think is the first and most basic prep. Live where most other people do not. Gets harder every day as the cities empty out.

No one will ever go to the real desert. It ain't Palm Springs....