Tactics question: your headed to your BOL after a serious SHTF when suddenly you come around a corner and see....

[Hardcalibres]

In a SHTF situation, depending on the severity of it, I would probably be on foot. I always have a BOB close at hand in case of emergency. Stealth is your best friend. In a serious SHTF situation one probably wouldn't have the gas to travel far anyway, and the noise of a vehicle would give away your position.

Agreed.

Many of us have been preparing for years to not need to travel far from home for months or years after a severe crisis breaks.

But survivalism is also about having the capabilities to respond to unforeseen needs too - so mobility is a big capability to have.

If where you are gets too dangerous, then you should leave and take enough supplies and gear with you to setup from scratch somewhere safer.

If someone in your group gets hurt/sick and you can't fix them, then the option to take them to care will be critical and a matter of life and death.

After the worst of the crisis is over, at some point you will be venturing out.......but at that time, the risk will still be far above "normal", because the ROL will most likely still be absent.

So it is best to assume that mobility remains a primary capability for even those with a very well prepared and resourced bug in location.


The "Special" parts of Western militaries are taking electric vehicles quite seriously (mostly because of the stealth they offer)..."Absolute Stealth"......

Here is a promo video showing the Sur Ron electric bike being trialed by the Australian Special Forces:



The Sur Ron is much lighter than the Volcon Grunt that I linked earlier in this thread.

They are also much more well proven as they have thousands out being used (where as the Volcon has only just started being delivered to end users).

Electric bikes like the Volcon and the Sur Ron fill a niche between walking and driving vehicles powered by internal combustion engines.

In the context of this thread, I doubt that ordinary hillbillies are going to man their ambush positions on their minor road day and night, 24/7 and for weeks or months. It is more likely they will rely upon the sound of approaching vehicles to let them know to sprint over to their ambush positions. Electric vehicles could really change the way that all pans out.

An electric bike, blacked out and ridden at night by someone with head mounted night vision, is likely to avoid a lot of trouble that a conventional vehicle driven during the day cannot.

If you don't have the budget for EVs, then pick your time of the day and other conditions (for your travel) that make preparedness by any potential ambushers likely to be poor........early AM, cold, raining, high wind (that suppresses vehicle noise), etc, etc

 

[calebj]

Considering I believe an EMP is most likely to happen we'd probably be walking through the woods, not walking any roads.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Considering I believe an EMP is most likely to happen we'd probably be walking through the woods, not walking any roads.

If the military are looking at EVs, then I would bet they will want them specced to resist EMP.

They know more about protecting the electric/electronic gear they already have than anyone else.

But I would not rate an EMP as most likely to happen.....it is just one of many possible causes for a collapse.

Heading off on foot cross country is great for some types of journey/patrols - but it has obvious limitations too.

Ten years after some big collapse, the two types of vehicles that are likely to be still driving around are diesels and EVs.

 

[Spikedriver]

If the military are looking at EVs, then I would bet they will want them specced to resist EMP.

They know more about protecting the electric/electronic gear they already have than anyone else.

But I would not rate an EMP as most likely to happen.....it is just one of many possible causes for a collapse.

Heading off on foot cross country is great for some types of journey/patrols - but it has obvious limitations too.

Ten years after some big collapse, the two types of vehicles that are likely to be still driving around are diesels and EVs.

Don't forget bicycles and horses. Both could become very useful...

 

[Hardcalibres]

Don't forget bicycles and horses. Both could become very useful...

Quiet too.

But horses are resource hungry and pedal powered bikes are a bit limited on speed and carrying capacity.

All these options have their strengths and weaknesses........but all of them are worthy of consideration and many are worthy of inclusion into your preps.

 

[Aerindel]

I see two likely types of ambush/roadblock being used in the SHTF world.

Predatory, and Defensive.

The Predatory road block has the same purpose as placing a snare on a game trail. It would be set up on a road near a camp by a 'raider' type person or group of people for the purpose of ambushing and robing travelers.

It would be monitored by at least one person with means to communicate to the others who would presumably be at nearby camp. As has been mentioned, its probably unlikely that a whole group of people would be able to man a ambush 24/7 for very long, but like a trap on a gametrail, it could be a low effort way to gather resources, for people inclined to murder and steal.

The second kind would be Defensive, placed on a road by people who have bugged in as a method of area denial to potential threats or competitors.

This would also be monitored but would only turn into an ambush if the travelers started to clear it or otherwise bypass. It would differ from a closed gate only that a gate obviously gives away that there is something to protect, while a possibly naturally downed tree has the chance to turn people back without revealing anything of value past that point.

For the traveler, in either scenario, its a high risk situation. A deliberately cut down tree likely means you will come under attack by whoever cut it down, wether it was for defense or predation when you try to clear it. Perhaps immediately, but very likely at least when you get out the saw.

However, the traveler presumably needs to get to wherever they are going fairly badly, or else they would not be on the road at all and turning back from every obstacle won't get you very far as without routine maintenance, most roads will pretty quickly end up naturally blocked.

I think it comes back to the idea that no matter what your doing, there is no way out of having to provide your own security. Anyone traveling will have to be able to do so in enough force to actively secure the area every time they stop.

Some kind of scouting ability will be extremely valuable. A classic 'stop, look, move' progression would be ideal. If for instance, you had a drone with a mile range, you could scout a mile a head, return the drone, move up to the last scouted position, make a secure stop, send the drone another mile ahead. This would be slow and tedious but high security usually is.

Alternatively, run a light fast scout vehicle ahead, something that is more likely to escape an ambush than your primary vehicle.

This has the obviously has the problem of, who do you get to scout?

Now, as for wether there will be people on the road.....yes. There will be.

Anyone with a full tank of gas will have 300 miles of range. Even with a half tank, 150 miles. That is a lot of travel distance. Those of us who have prepared......much much more.

After the worst of the crisis is over, at some point you will be venturing out.......but at that time, the risk will still be far above "normal", because the ROL will most likely still be absent.

Yep.

And there is really no period in human history without some form of extensive travel, even in periods we would consider WROL. Given millions upon millions of vehicles with probably millions of miles of fuel of various kinds above ground....vehicular travel seems very likely to continue in all scenarios.

What I think is likely is a return to various 'trade routes' of relatively safe, cleared roads with local 'powers that be' keeping them secure to encourage travel, and other, more dangerous back roads where people travel only in force.

Walking alone in the woods I think is the slowest, least useful and probably the most dangerous form of travel in most scenarios. This doesn't mean it won't happen, but it seems to have the least return on the risk. I think you are just as likely to run into someone else in the woods, as on a road, but in the woods you will only have what you can carry, and for a given distance, you will spend a lot more TIME out and exposed. Ten minutes on a road could be a full day on foot traveling in the woods. A three hour drive on less than a single tank of gas could be a month of travel and foraging for the person on foot, and could be a three hour trip with your entire group...on the way to return from barter town with 2000lbs of salted fish....or whatever.

The only time I think traveling on foot will be valuable, is when the only thing of value you have to transport is yourself, which in general, I do not think will require much travel.

If you don't have the budget for EVs, then pick your time of the day and other conditions (for your travel) that make preparedness by any potential ambushers likely to be poor........early AM, cold, raining, high wind (that suppresses vehicle noise), etc, etc

This was the first question I asked when I joined that 'other forum', what time of day is best to travel.

The answers that I got pointed towards after midnight, to before dawn as the period where there are the least "mark 1 eyeballs' open.

I think this is fine for foot travel.

For vehicle travel my opinion is the period before dawn when its just light enough to see, but before true dawn, and the period after sunset, before true dark.

I've observed that at those times, a careless driver can leave his headlights off and be very hard to see on the road from even 100 yards away, but he himself can see well enough to drive at highway speeds that he doesn't even realize his lights are off.

 

[Aerindel]

So, I went back to the tree today....and it looks like someone else did the obvious thing: sawed the part on the road into sections and cleared it.

And, I'm surprised nobody has asked the obvious question yet.....why was the tree down in the first place?

I don't know the why....but the how is that this one was deliberately dropped.

 

[elkhound]

This brings up a good question...for those of us living in timber country and have lots of forest roads that often dont get used daily and often see rural forest activities. well a tree across road is almost a daily thing. its also not uncommon to see trees cut on roads because rural forest folks are cutting dead trees and sometimes not dead trees for firewood.

here in my area folks carry chainsaws and axes because you need it to continue travel often.

i have seen trees that would have usually went for firewood this year being milled by landowners and others with the bs fake lumber prices scam this year. neighbors and myself turned more trees into lumber and firewood to save our money.this brings up question right now to of timer left. this tree could be on its way into lumber. it could have been bucked and loaded in 8 ft sections pretty easy.

 

[elkhound]

i recently heard some older soldiers..in mid to late 50's admit after doing some training that they have to admit to themselves they are not the 20 year old that trained daily and spent carer in military and retired. even some younger guys in 30's agreed they could tell wear and tear on body was catching up with them already as well.

we as a country have to face this too that we have an aging population. aging rural folks aint going to be rolling out of vehicle into a fire fight very easily or very fast.

theres a lot of fantasy crap people dream about in a shtf deal. look at last 7 years as example in venezuela. its been rough for sure..but the majority of population is still there grinding out daily needs however they can. even ones who left are returning because its no better across border for them.they would have been better off staying put i think.theres not chaos every day there.theres chaos but its way more settled than most want to admit.

 

[Hardcalibres]

i recently heard some older soldiers..in mid to late 50's admit after doing some training that they have to admit to themselves they are not the 20 year old that trained daily and spent carer in military and retired. even some younger guys in 30's agreed they could tell wear and tear on body was catching up with them already as well.

we as a country have to face this too that we have an aging population. aging rural folks aint going to be rolling out of vehicle into a fire fight very easily or very fast.

Fair enough.......and luckily, that also applies to the good ole boys manning the road block.

But if/when bullets start hitting your vehicle or whizzing past your head, all that military stuff starts to make more sense.

Some of us are still fit enough to do most of what we were taught.....

theres a lot of fantasy crap people dream about in a shtf deal. look at last 7 years as example in venezuela. its been rough for sure..but the majority of population is still there grinding out daily needs however they can. even ones who left are returning because its no better across border for them.they would have been better off staying put i think.theres not chaos every day there.theres chaos but its way more settled than most want to admit.

I have always thought that the crises in third world dumps are a somewhat limited indication of what a collapse in the US (and any other Western nations) would look like....

Firstly, the people there are used to living in a quite dysfunctional place - that is where they were born and grew up. The fact that it fell over the edge into collapse requires a limited adjustment on the part of the population. They may even be less likely to flip out because of that life long conditioning.

Secondly, things there can only get so bad because the world outside their borders is still pretty normal. If the US were to suffer collapse, the rest of the world is also going to be dragged into at least moderate dysfunctionality. There will be no aid, cavalry coming to the rescue or normality just over the border to hold the collapse back.

There have been a few survivalism "experts" come out of Argentina and the Balkans. When I read most of the "lessons they learned from their experience".....it was dumb.

Perhaps the lesson they had to share was that the collapse was caused by the bone headed people there (including them).......

 

[Hardcalibres]

............

For vehicle travel my opinion is the period before dawn when its just light enough to see, but before true dawn, and the period after sunset, before true dark.

I've observed that at those times, a carless driver can leave his headlights off and be very hard to see on the road from even 100 yards away, but he himself can see well enough to drive at highway speeds.

It is worth noting that most militaries agree about those times of the day.........

Most adopt a higher degree of readiness in their field defensive positions for dawn and dusk.

 

[SoJer]

I don't want to engage, period.

Where I'm going in this situation is wide open rolling country with square mile sections. ..

a) They may not give you any Choice, so best to parry Offensively, vs Defensively, which...

b) ..This (how you describe your AO..) is one area where 'investment in a drone package' could well pay off.. ie: the 'DLI Mavics' can fly High enough to stay clear of (most) fire (and certainly fast enough to reduce someones 'snipe' to a one-in-a-million-shot chance, likely) and also reduce 'detection', since they're Quite quiet.. And, 'forward enough', to help give you some time to react, Before rolling right-up on the 'trap'..

You could also consider 'subterfuge' with the vehicle choice, as well - ie: Rather than have, say, a 'Hummer, all decked out in the latest Camo-print', possibly consider a - fortified / armored (as-best-as-achievable..) - "Utility Truck" or perhaps Ambulance-lookin rig (but not 'close enough' to end up pulled over by any LEO's (this-side of SHTF..) for "impersonating", etc..)

..I simply posit that it's Less likely that 'Bo & Luke' at one of those such-like 'checkpoints' would just open fire on a "Util Truck" / Ambulance, than on the guy driving a 'camo Deuce' or Hummer, etc.. Or, even yer 'garden-variety RV' (since a marauder-checkpoint would likely see that coming and think "Mmm, supplies / food.. and Maybe even a hot wife and some Oreos inside, eh?", etc..

Just some thoughts..
jd

 

[Aerindel]

here in my area folks carry chainsaws and axes because you need it to continue travel often.

Same. I pretty much always have a small chainsaw in the back of the truck for just such things.

Secondly, things there can only get so bad because the world outside their borders is still pretty normal. If the US were to suffer collapse, the rest of the world is also going to be dragged into at least moderate dysfunctionality. There will be no aid, cavalry coming to the rescue or normality just over the border to hold the collapse back.

I think this is an important distinction that people often seem to not take into account. I think the classic example is when people talk about the power being out for three weeks after a hurricane or something being an indication that a CME wouldn't be that bad because in those three weeks there was little or no breakdown of law and order, no starvation etc.

I think there is a huge difference between a city going dark for an extended period when there is an entire nation to support it, and a city going dark at the same time as every other city.

But I also think that elkhound does have somewhat of a point that for the most part people do just keep grinding away day by day. This is part of why I don't think we will every see a total breakdown of vehicular traffic in any plausible scenario.

There have been a few survivalism "experts" come out of Argentina and the Balkans. When I read most of the "lessons they learned from their experience".....it was dumb.

Indeed. Dumb is an understatement.

 

[calebj]

If the military are looking at EVs, then I would bet they will want them specced to resist EMP.

They know more about protecting the electric/electronic gear they already have than anyone else.

But I would not rate an EMP as most likely to happen.....it is just one of many possible causes for a collapse.

Heading off on foot cross country is great for some types of journey/patrols - but it has obvious limitations too.

Ten years after some big collapse, the two types of vehicles that are likely to be still driving around are diesels and EVs.

My area is only 12 minutes by car to my BOL so the first day would be a mass effort to move everything over there before the real panic sets in.

 

[Alaskajohn]

It is worth noting that most militaries agree about those times of the day.........

Most adopt a higher degree of readiness in their field defensive positions for dawn and dusk.

Yes, who could forget “stand to?” That is drilled into every soldier. Perhaps it contributes to me still waking up at 4 AM every morning.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Yes, who could forget “stand to?” That is drilled into every soldier. Perhaps it contributes to me still waking up at 4 AM every morning.

Funny story about standing to........We were in a position on a hill that we occupied late the previous afternoon and with enough time to dig basic shell scrapes or "graves".

The next morning before dawn, I crawl out of my sleeping bag, put on my belt gear and then my rifle and I crawl into my grave for stand to.

A few times in the next twenty minutes or so I feel something moving between the front of my shirt and the bottom of the hole. Eventually it is just starting get light and so I roll onto my side and look for the critter........and it was easy to spot.....because it was the biggest Scorpion I have ever seen.

So I reach back for my M9 (a Genuine Buck one that I had mounted on my belt gear), quietly draw it from the scabbard and then stab the Scorpion through the middle. I then notice the guy in the next grave is watching me with a quizzical look on his face. I hold up the M9 with the impaled Scorpion and he does a wide eyed double take.

I wipe the dead Scorpion off the knife, onto the ground, put it back in the scabbard and go back to watching the perimeter.

Graves were always bad for trapping any creepy crawlies that passed by that way.

 

[Alaskajohn]

This: (without the kid and the minibike), its about 100 ft in front of you, because its on a curve you couldn't see it from further away. Because the base of the tree is in dense brush, you can't see if it was cut or uprooted or broken off by wind.

This is a question I ask from time to time as its a real life situation I run into a few times a year, (as I did today) and I find it can bring up a discussion that can go several ways.

View attachment 72805
View attachment 72806

One of the problems I have is this sort of stuff happens all the time naturally in my AO, so I am conditioned to expect to see this. On the only road that goes through the long valley and mountain passes, it’s mostly landslides (rocks and boulders) that happen almost daily, and often its trees. Trees are easy in non-SHTF to clear, landslides not so easy depending on the slide.

On my private road to my place it’s trees. Happens often enough where I carry a chainsaw. DOT or civilians like me clear the highway now, and I have to deal with my private road.

SHTF, I don’t plan on traveling on the highway unless something disparate is happening. At that point it would be on foot, as without DOT, those big boulders would have closed the road to vehicles. I would certainly expect some roadblocks would be man made. I have scouted out areas where I can block the passes and choke points near me. Again, this is why I wouldn‘t plan to travel that road. If you could see the very tall and steep mountains that make up both sides of the pass where I live, following the route of the road is the only way in our out with limited exceptions.

I do have escape routes where I don’t need to follow the highway that take me into deep wilderness. But it’s tough going, very tough.

 

[SoJer]

Funny story about standing to..........biggest Scorpion I have ever seen.

Bah! You missed an op to have a Great 'pet'! (course, out on Patrol would not be the best time to go setting up a 'terrarium', I guess.. Just found this lil' baby one in a recent move, in some boxes.. He was just chillin / looking for shadow..

..Watching him just Nail then slowly devour Crickets (..like the Alien did to 'Bish' in that one scene in Aliens..) is just the 'Best TV going'.. (in fact, in This shot, he's just finishing up a cricket leg, like a chicken wing, Lol..

..We've got a few 'funny stories' about them, as well, as my Son was an avid hunter / collector of 'em when he lived under the roof, in past.. (ie: one went "missing" one time - only to turn up inside one of his Socks when he went to put it on! The only ones that really kinda gave me the skeeves were the jet-black 'Emperor's down in El Sal - They were Huge, and are nothing to cross..

..Anyhoo, back to the Logs across roads Channel
jd

 

[The Lazy L]

This: (without the kid and the minibike), its about 100 ft in front of you, because its on a curve you couldn't see it from further away. Because the base of the tree is in dense brush, you can't see if it was cut or uprooted or broken off by wind....

I've read all of the responses. A few responses came close (use of a drone) on what I thought was obvious. Why am I driving around a curve that limits forward vision to 100 feet during SHTF ??!?!?!?!?!?

This is my route to my BOL. In other words I should know the route like the back of my hand. Just because its been a long and trying trip is no reason to let my guard down this close to my BOL. I know the curve is just ahead. I stop BEFORE the curve and BEFORE the sound of my transportation can reach beyond the curve. By your scenario I'm by myself. If I can't hide my transportation then I either take the keys with me or disable it. Then I do a WIDE flanking maneuver around the curve to an observation point where I can safely observe what's on the other side of the curve. FALLEN TREE! I can continue to watch the area for movement and decide IF its safer to proceed or to turn around and use a secondary route to my BOL. If there is no secondary route to my BO then I quietly and quickly unload my transportation of the most valuable items as risk assessment and time permits. These items I hide as far away from my transportation as practical. I proceed on foot to my BOL avoiding the area of the curve and fallen tree.

 

[Aklogcabin]

If you're heading towards you're home spot in a shtf situation. Wouldn't you need to keep going. I would find out how the tree fell first. If wind blow no problem, with that mini bike tip it over the log n keep rolling. I would need to know why it tipped so you would know if you even have a situation.
And if something like this happened it would probably be a local or someone else who knows the area.
And if for me being the guy who cut the tree staying out of trouble first. And probably see if whoever was on the mini bike would pass on by. And I would know where they went.
Hey if shtf you're gonna have to deal with the s part as it happens. Last thing I would want is for others to think I will run.
You want some of this come n get it attitude.
Again why would you not find out why it was cut ? If someone else is already set up near you or you have to pass by the probably know the area n probably be your bug out neighbor. And may be an asset. Or if it is just a wind blow you exposed yourself more and not at your spot. How else are you going to get there ? Going to have to deal with it. Showing that you are just another survivor n just passing through.
Kinda like when 2 big dogs meet n sniff out each other, but part ways. Each knowing that if they fight they will get hurt. Safer to let them pass

 

[Aerindel]

If you're heading towards you're home spot in a shtf situation. Wouldn't you need to keep going. I would find out how the tree fell first. If wind blow no problem, with that mini bike tip it over the log n keep rolling. I would need to know why it tipped so you would know if you even have a situation.
And if something like this happened it would probably be a local or someone else who knows the area.
And if for me being the guy who cut the tree staying out of trouble first. And probably see if whoever was on the mini bike would pass on by. And I would know where they went.
Hey if shtf you're gonna have to deal with the s part as it happens. Last thing I would want is for others to think I will run.
You want some of this come n get it attitude.
Again why would you not find out why it was cut ? If someone else is already set up near you or you have to pass by the probably know the area n probably be your bug out neighbor. And may be an asset. Or if it is just a wind blow you exposed yourself more and not at your spot. How else are you going to get there ? Going to have to deal with it. Showing that you are just another survivor n just passing through.
Kinda like when 2 big dogs meet n sniff out each other, but part ways. Each knowing that if they fight they will get hurt. Safer to let them pass

I agree.

You can not simply give up every time you run into something like this, because you will run into problems like this constantly.

On the other hand, you can't do nothing.

Thats why I find situations like this so interesting.

 

[Hardcalibres]

..........
Again why would you not find out why it was cut ? ..........

In normal times, the chances that the tree is part of an ambush is probably less than one in a billion - so that makes walking up to the tree and checking it out logical.

If a very severe crisis has hit, most people are starving and the rule of law is gone (ie people are already shooting each other over resources and territory), then the chances that the tree is part of an ambush will have increased to maybe one in a thousand or even as much as one in a hundred - so that makes treating the whole thing as an ambush, logical (and prudent).

In some situations, "holding your ground" will make sense - but that would probably not include walking around in what would be the kill zone, if it is an ambush.

Even well equipped militaries will avoid potential ambush sites when they plan and execute troop movement - mostly because ambush is about the most one sided military confrontation.

The military has drills for situations that may be a bad threat one in a thousand times. The reason those drills are consistently applied is also talked about in the context of the saying that "procedures only work if you use them every time".

So when you ask a military person what they would do, they will answer in that context.

 

[Neb]

I have been watching this thread with interest not because I intend to encounter the down tree but because I intend to down a tree across the front and back side to our hill with kill zones already planned.

Ben

 

[Rick]

If they show their hand with hostile gunfire and the rule of law is gone, then being able to see their checkpoint from a long way off is it's biggest vulnerability.

Out range them......

Engage them with gunfire from something that shoots further than they can. I have read plenty of posts on a survivalism web forum that add up to "you will never need a rifle that can shoot further than a few hundred yards...."

Well experience from twenty years of GWOT suggests otherwise.

There is something fundamentally demoralizing about a one way protracted gunfight.

They will abandon the checkpoint pretty quick......

This is really food for thought for me.
The realities of prepping have locked me into M4 type tactical rifles, of 14.5 and 16 inch barrels.
But I always wondered if it might not be good to have a longer ranged rifle.

I was thinking about a 308.
BUT a lot of the folks likely to set up such an ambush having a 308 AR10 will not be enough to outrange them as least some significant fraction can be expected to field a 308 hunting rifle or the like.
Some of them may even have glass on them.

With a glassed AR10 I can shoot faster (and I shoot well) and I am confident I will be able to win a ranged firefight against a group of average shooters, that includes 2-3 bolt action hunting rifles, if I can keep myself at that sweetspot of range, that is, far enough to stay out of range of their 5.56 mm/ 7.62x39 mm (AKs) weapons but not so far that the extra range their bolt action hunting rifles has on me, will start to make a difference.
I am thinking maybe 600-700 meters (ish)

But this post makes me think of maybe going a step further.

How about a 6.5 Creed on a Ruger Precision rifle with good glass?
Thats a 1300-1500 yard set-up all day long , if I do my part.
With that I can completely outrange probably nearly all checkpoint groups.
(But then again is IS bolt action so I will have zero advantage of speed of engagement and follow up shots over a Remington 700 or the like if I am in their engagement envelope.)

Of course this also means more $$ and training time invested into yet another niche capability.

Still the point made by hardcalibres is well taken and he is right if you can turn it into a one way firefight via even just a couple hundred meters of effective range, its an entirely different event for you and your OPFOR.

 

[Spikedriver]

I think a good pair of binos or spotting scope is in order as well. Better to observe from afar. I have two main routes to my BOL and multiple secondary routes which are weather dependent (may be impassable due to mud or snow). And if I can get within a few miles, it is accessable on foot from any direction. If the corn is high I can move with absolute stealth on foot, with the only vulnerability being crossing roads. I can even go in via water if I don't mind getting my feet wet in the creek, but there's no cover if discovered in the creek bed. The only thing keeping me out, is if somebody bad is already occupying the farm...

 

[Hardcalibres]

This is really food for though for me.
The realities of prepping have locked me into M4 type tactical rifles, of 14.5 and 16 inch barrels.
But I always wondered if it might not be good to have a longer ranged rifle.

5.56mm battle rifles are great for most things - but just not everything.

Ultra long range is of course situational - dependent upon the terrain and how far you can actually see - but in many cases, people underestimate how far that might be - especially if you are looking for how you can use range/distance to your advantage.

I was thinking about a 308.
BUT a lot of the folks likely to set up such an ambush having a 308 AR10 will not be enough to outrange them as some at least can be expected to field a Remington 700 or the like.

In most cases, good 308 semis can do virtually as well as bolt guns - just don't opt for very short barrels and make sure you get something that can do MOA groups or better. A 24" bolt gun has probably about 200 yards more effective range than an accurate 16" semi.

With a glassed AR10 I can shoot faster (and I shoot well) and might be able to win a firefight against a group that includes 2-3 bolt action hunting rifles, if I can keep myself at that sweetspot of range, that is, far enough to stay out of range of their 5.56 mm/ 7.62mm weapons but not so far that the extra range their bolt action hunting rifles has on me, will start to tell.

Yep - if your plan is to (maybe) outrange others, then it is even better to do that by a significant margin (ie more like 500 extra yards than a couple of hundred).

But this post makes me think of maybe going a step further.

How about a 6.5 Creed on a Ruger Precision rifle with good glass?
Thats a 1300-1500 yard gun all day long , if I do my part.
With that I can completely outrange probably the nearly checkpoint groups.
(But then again is IS bolt action so I will have zero advantage of speed of engagement and follow up shots of a Remington 700 or the like if I am in their engagement envelope.)

6.5CM is more like a 1200 yard rifle - they can shoot further, but the long 140gn class projectiles will go transonic at about 1200.....

The 338 class rifles like 338LAP and 338 RUM are even better options which extend your effective range out beyond 1600 yards. They will also do a better job punching through things at that and closer ranges.

Of course this also means more $$ and training time invested into yet another niche capability.

Yep - welcome to the world of survivalism.......but if you are lucky, you will enjoy ultra long range shooting and it will become a hobby that you get more than a prep from.

Still the point made by hardcalibres is well taken and he is right if you can turn it into a one way firefight via even just a couple hundred meters of effective range, its an entirely different event for you and your OPFOR.

Yep - and it is worth noting that even among people with 308s, a tiny proportion of them have actually practised and collected DOPE for their guns at extended/maximum ranges - so those that see that niche and develop it, are likely to a have a rare capability - and rare capabilties are a good thing to pull out of the tool box during a gun fight.

 

[Bacpacker]

Good discussion. Lots of points well taken. One thing about around here. There are few areas that will have a regular 500 yard shot. Too many hills, too many trees. Lot of place 100 yards is a long shot.

 

[Aerindel]

This is really food for thought for me.
The realities of prepping have locked me into M4 type tactical rifles, of 14.5 and 16 inch barrels.
But I always wondered if it might not be good to have a longer ranged rifle.

I was thinking about a 308.
BUT a lot of the folks likely to set up such an ambush having a 308 AR10 will not be enough to outrange them as least some significant fraction can be expected to field a 308 hunting rifle or the like.
Some of them may even have glass on them.

With a glassed AR10 I can shoot faster (and I shoot well) and I am confident I will be able to win a ranged firefight against a group of average shooters, that includes 2-3 bolt action hunting rifles, if I can keep myself at that sweetspot of range, that is, far enough to stay out of range of their 5.56 mm/ 7.62x39 mm (AKs) weapons but not so far that the extra range their bolt action hunting rifles has on me, will start to make a difference.
I am thinking maybe 600-700 meters (ish)

I came to the exact same conclusion a few years ago and purchased an AR10 for myself.

In addition to long range fire power, rather than just single shots, anti-material use was a consideration. If you are trying to disable a vehicle, there is no question that rapid, high capacity 308 fire is going to be a lot more effective than 556 at any range.

Even better if you have a 50 round drum and binary trigger, basically as close as you can get as a civilian to an LMG.

Now when it comes to ultra long range, say, over 1000 yards, my feeling is that the cost to reward drops off dramatically, as you in you start spending more and more money, for something you are less and less likely to need.

I live in high mountains with dense trees, which also effects my decision. I'm more interested in something that can shoot through a tree at 50 yards, than something that can make hits at 1500 meters.

Now, if I lived in the desert,great plains or urban, the math could be different.

 

[Spikedriver]

I came to the exact same conclusion a few years ago and purchased an AR10 for myself.

In addition to long range fire power, rather than just single shots, anti-material use was a consideration. If you are trying to disable a vehicle, there is no question that rapid, high capacity 308 fire is going to be a lot more effective than 556 at any range.

Even better if you have a 50 round drum and binary trigger, basically as close as you can get as a civilian to an LMG.

Now when it comes to ultra long range, say, over 1000 yards, my feeling is that the cost to reward drops off dramatically, as you in you start spending more and more money, for something you are less and less likely to need.

I live in high mountains with dense trees, which also effects my decision. I'm more interested in something that can shoot through a tree at 50 yards, than something that can make hits at 1500 meters.

Now, if I lived in the desert,great plains or urban, the math could be different.

I guess when your route options are limited, that 1500 meter range could be important. But for me, if I can see a suspicious circumstance at 1500 meters, I can probably figure out a way around it without engaging at all, which is the very best option in my book...

 

[Rick]

Couple more thoughts:

-308 even for good shooters generally maxes out just before 1000m for effective range.
I have a buddy who is a competitor and rolls his own super accurate ammo and gets past a 1000 with 308 but it takes very good glass combined with a good read of the wind and the best matchammo you cna roll is what it takes to get past 1000 with 308.
And this is with bolt actions, not mag fed. (though shooter skills at ranges deeper in the envelope will determine more than the pure technical ability of the rifle.
- yes the point is well taken.. only a small minority of bolt action 308 shooters actually have recorded the bullet drop with their ammo and/or even have any notable skill. This is what gives me confidence to win a firefight with a glassed AR10 at 600-700 m. above that I am starting to worry I will get outperformed, below that suddenly all their buddies with intermediate calibers will start entering the fight in a meaningful way. (Assuming minimal wind, I can do "headshots", 6 inch groups, at 600m, certainly center mass, with a 20in AR in .223/5.56, if I am using my match ammo which I do have a card and acceptable glass for, and I have done that, but this is a about the realistic max for that caliber IMHO and it needs a favorable wind)
-300 WinMag, 6.5 Creed, 338 Lapua are all superior to 308... BUT 308 is so much cheaper and available.. maybe I will just get an AR10,..everything is a tradeoff and a compromise. Still thinking this through. I do have a 1000 m range nearby to practice.