Tactics question: your headed to your BOL after a serious SHTF when suddenly you come around a corner and see....

[Aerindel]

No one will ever go to the real desert. It ain't Palm Springs....

The other interesting thing to think about is.....how many places filled with millions of people already will become the real desert when the AC and pumps stop working?

 

[Spikedriver]

The other interesting thing to think about is.....how many places filled with millions of people already will become the real desert when the AC and pumps stop working?

Like Los Angeles? Phoenix? Salt Lake City? Vegas?

Don't worry. D.C. will fix it...

 

[Aklogcabin]

Well, I don't want to victim blame. But I will disagree.

Anything can be saved, its just a matter of your priorities, which you are free to set for yourself. In most disasters, we very often tell victims that 'nothing you could have done would have made a difference' This is to comfort them.

But it is not the truth.

What we should really say is..."Unless you had properly prepared for this, nothing could have saved you once it started"

Perhaps I should say "Any house can be saved from any fire, but only if you are prepared to do so".

As we move forward into a hotter and drier climate, we are going to have to either give up living in certain places...or learn better ways to live there.

When someone says "My house burned down, nothing could have been done" I want to know what it was made of, how many pumps they had, how many feet of hoses, what the GPM of their system was, how many people where there fighting it, how many hours of air for their SCBA's they had."

But I rarely ask these questions, because I already know the answer and all that these questions do is make people feel worse about something terrible that has already happened to them. But perhaps they need to be asked anyway, it could be the only way to keep it from happening again.

When someone survives a heart attack, you don't tell them "There is nothing that could have prevented this". You tell them to change their diet, start exercising, loss weight etc.




We all do. But that threat isn't the trees. It's the lack of water, fireproof materials and most critically, someone there to fight the fire with that equipment.

If your house is like most, the trees near it are in more danger of being set on fire by your house, than your house is in danger from your trees burning.

******** ! Bologna ain't what I wrote

 

[SoJer]

bologna ! Bologna ain't what I wrote

Huh... Sooo, how long have you Been a Firefighter? Just curious, Oscar..

jd

 

[Caribou]

You can defend almost any structure but not if you start fighting after the fire starts.
I stopped in to visit my cousin. The conversation came around to woodland fires. He mentioned that he wanted a new roof. I told him to put on a white metal roof, he did it. I told him to clear the underbrush and needles for an extended area, he did it. I made a couple of other recommendations.

A few years later, the fire swept through his area. When he returned home the firefighters were camped out on his porch and his neighbours were burned out. He had made his home defensible and they had something to work with.

The Reagan Presidential Library is in a high fire risk area. They bring in goats regularly to eat the ground cover. When the fire came through the library was saved.

 

[Hardcalibres]

Here is a good discussion about using fire retardant trees to control fire risk:

https://deepgreenpermaculture.com/2...nt-trees-and-plants-for-fireproof-landscapes/

 

[Alaskajohn]

We all do. But that threat isn't the trees. It's the lack of water, fireproof materials and most critically, someone there to fight the fire with that equipment.

If your house is like most, the trees near it are in more danger of being set on fire by your house, than your house is in danger from your trees burning.

How can you claim trees don’t participate in forest fires, and that fire breaks aren’t product defenses in a wild fire when their is no fire department that will ever come to help? You say I shouldn’t have firebreaks and maintain a protective barrier around my house. I have the real possibility of fighting a fire by myself in the middle of the winter with near hurricane winds with windchills of -60F is not going to fly. You really think I would be better off with no firebreaks and the highly flammable spuce trees coming all the way up against my house in this Alaskan environment?

I will let you do that. I am having my fire breaks and my protective barrier as one of many of my fire defenses. And this is only a small part of my defenses, but it’s just me against the fire.

it’s not just theoretical for me. I have lost friend who have died in fires and know too many people who have lost their homes to wildfires to not take every step to protect my home.

 

[Aerindel]

How can you claim trees don’t participate in forest fires, and that fire breaks aren’t product defenses in a wild fire when their is no fire department that will ever come to help? You say I shouldn’t have firebreaks and maintain a protective barrier around my house. I have the real possibility of fighting a fire by myself in the middle of the winter with near hurricane winds with windchills of -60F is not going to fly. You really think I would be better off with no firebreaks and the highly flammable spuce trees coming all the way up against my house in this Alaskan environment?

I didn't say any of those things, so I can't answer any of those questions.

 

[Alaskajohn]

I didn't say any of those things, so I can't answer any of those questions.

yes you did. I posted what you said in my reply. I said I employed firebreaks and a protective barrier and you replied saying trees were not a threat in forest fires, and my house was more of a threat to the trees than a forests fire was to my house.

In your earlier post you said that you empl the tactical strategy of having trees next to your house for concealment. I am perfectly okay with you doing that. I am employing firebreaks and protective barriers as part of my fire defenses. I need to live with the fact that this exposes my house to the bush pilots flying over my house. And that was the point of my post.

I stand by my post that trees are a threat to homes in wildfires and that you can take protective measures against forest fires through prudent measures that includes firebreaks and protective barriers. And I am comfortable with the risk trade off given the risk assessment.

 

[Aerindel]

yes you did

No I didn't.

We can do this all day.....

Actually, its 1 AM here and I'm tired so maybe not. I'll post more on this tomorrow and try to assume you are not just deliberately missing my point, which is my current mood, and make a good faith effort to say again what I already said as it appears I have completely failed to get my point across. Sometimes I try to 'lead the horse to water' rather than just saying what I mean obtusely since just 'making them drink' doesn't ever work.

Perhaps you can understand my...exasperation, in the mean time if you look again what I actually said and compare it to how you re-worded it.

 

[Caribou]

Be aware, that for decades, the borough governments in Alaska, and certainly elsewhere, fly photographic missions and capture pictures of all the land making all structures, roads, and other improvements. Hiding your home from aerial survey is nearly impossible. I haven't been around these people in decades but now IR technology is available...

 

[Alaskajohn]

Be aware, that for decades, the borough governments in Alaska, and certainly elsewhere, fly photographic missions and capture pictures of all the land making all structures, roads, and other improvements. Hiding your home from aerial survey is nearly impossible. I haven't been around these people in decades but now IR technology is available...

Yes, what you see from these pictures are impressive, invasive and scary.

 

[Aklogcabin]

Huh... Sooo, how long have you Been a Firefighter? Just curious, Oscar..

jd

Hello Oscar
I only have 1 fire season under my belt as a paid forest fire fighter. I was a squad boss. Also spent lots of nights around a camp fire with folks that were the best in the state. And coached lots new guys on how to use the equipment in their packs that I was responsible for packing.
And I watched as the best firefighters in the state. Both local state federal national guard and everything that could be had had to retreat and drop everything. All lines down and retreat as soon as possible. I remember helping a local firefighter trying to prime the pump on his tanker. After we got it going we hit the woods. Literally 50 mile an hour winds creating it's own weather system. Over 40 thousand acres burning. The tops of the spruce trees flying through the air for 75 feet. Balls of fire.
When we came out it was the last truck on the road. Nothing but fire hoses all over the road as they had to move that fast.
Yeah I was in the middle of that for 3 days before my house burned as the fire turned again , 3rd time.
Every emergency service personnel at every level threw everything they had at this fire that burned hundreds of homes including mine.
Then I got the wonderful experience of rebuilding a home for my family. Another story
So I guess I got some experience at every level

 

[SoJer]

Hello Oscar

Lol, I think you missed my 'friendly ***'.. Prolly for the best.. Anyhoo, moving on..

I only have 1 fire season under my belt as a paid forest fire fighter....And I watched as ...Literally 50 mile an hour winds creating ...Balls of fire..... So I guess I got some experience at every level

Sure, and I'm also sure that Aerindel - with 15 yrs under his belt (Iirc..) would agree that - Indeed, if the '5th Regiment strafes your Entire Compound with Napalm' - Yeah, you're probably losing your House, no matter What you "do"..

..And, I, myself (though never having Been a FF, sadly..) have watched wind-driven 75' tall 'walls of flame', literally 'jump' 6 lanes + median + another 6 lanes, of the Massive 101 freeway, out here, and 'keep going' as if it were nothing.. As was pointed out, it's wiped out Whole Towns / Neighborhoods, in a single afternoon.. Living in CA, here, it's something we 'watch on the News', every bloody Year..

..However, I also recall - both, herein - as well as from those Horrible, Massive fires down in Victoria, AU, a couple years back - that there Were examples of that 'one miracle house', that - somehow - Survived amidst their charred-out neighbors.. How did that "happen" - 'blind luck'?? No, "luck" is nothing more than a 'construct', just like Other superstitions, so..

How they 'made it' HAD to be from something they Actively Did, to try and mitigate thier risk, while Others, around them, did not 'make it' - likely - because they had Not done the same. Was the loss "their Fault"? Can't really answer that question, without knowing What those 'others' Did, or did Not Do, to mitigate, via Building materials / construction techniques / Fire-suppression systems, therein, etc (and - Sure - again.. 'Napalm caviats, withstanding'..

..But, in the end, a) Sorry for your tragic loss (and Everyone who suffers from Fire-destruction - We Almost had that happen, Here, when a 'guest house' door-over from us became Fully engulfed inside of about 5 mins, and spread to 4 other structures around it, just a few weeks ago (story for another thread..) but, b) Great to see you 'rebound' / rebuild (and was Really impressive to read of your 'ingenuity' / perseverance, in-so doing the other thread, there) but..

..In the end - it's All About Preparation.. and 'Fortune Favors the Prepared'.. Anyway, this is Way 'OT', so I'm'a shuddup, now..

.02
jd

 

[Aerindel]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. I've decided I need to make a new thread and dedicated post on this subject.

Until then, short story.

Firebreaks are great.

Fire mitigation is great.

All of that is good, necessary, and something I have done.

But Trees.....are not your primary threat. Even though they are called "Forest Fires" The part of the forest you are in the most danger from is the bushes, grass, undergrowth and duff layers. Thats primarily what burns up and what you need to focus on when preparing for fire. The primary tool of the firefighter is not the chainsaw, its the woodchipper, or its industrial cousin, The Masticator.

I've been working a fire a few miles from my house all summer....its still smoldering in fact. In the coming days I will try and take some pictures of what burned, and what didn't, and what the fire lines we made look like. Hint, it wasn't about cutting down all the trees. It was more about what is two feet below ground level, to two feet above it.

But even if you do that, and cut down all the trees, etc....your house will still probably burn down in a fire unless you have a high capacity water supply and people to man it. How much of this is dependent on what kind of fire conditions you get. It may be a great deal, that doesn't mean it can't be done. You can prepare for a direct nuclear strike if you're dedicated enough.

Also, a little bit on firefighters....never trust anyone who's primary commandment is to come home at the end of the day so they can properly fill out their shift ticket....to protect your home. 'Managing' the fire is our job, saving your house isn't. Its the first thing they tell me on every fire "Don't be a Hero, these people all have insurance, or should, don't risk anything, just evacuate the people, and lets have a good season'

This fire was the main source of income for me this year. My house is somewhere down to the right, a few miles back into those trees.

 

[Aklogcabin]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to this. I've decided I need to make a new thread and dedicated post on this subject.

Until then, short story.

Firebreaks are great.

Fire mitigation is great.

All of that is good, necessary, and something I have done.

But Trees.....are not your primary threat. Even though they are called "Forest Fires" The part of the forest you are in the most danger from is the bushes, grass, undergrowth and duff layers. Thats primarily what burns up and what you need to focus on when preparing for fire. The primary tool of the firefighter is not the chainsaw, its the woodchipper, or its industrial cousin, The Masticator.

I've been working a fire a few miles from my house all summer....its still smoldering in fact. In the coming days I will try and take some pictures of what burned, and what didn't, and what the fire lines we made look like. Hint, it wasn't about cutting down all the trees. It was more about what is two feet below ground level, to two feet above it.

But even if you do that, and cut down all the trees, etc....your house will still probably burn down in a fire unless you have a high capacity water supply and people to man it. How much of this is dependent on what kind of fire conditions you get. It may be a great deal, that doesn't mean it can't be done. You can prepare for a direct nuclear strike if you're dedicated enough.

Also, a little bit on firefighters....never trust anyone who's primary commandment is to come home at the end of the day so they can properly fill out their shift ticket....to protect your home. 'Managing' the fire is our job, saving your house isn't. Its the first thing they tell me on every fire "Don't be a Hero, these people all have insurance, or should, don't risk anything, just evacuate the people, and lets have a good season'

This fire was the main source of income for me this year. My house is somewhere down to the right, a few miles back into those trees.

Yeppers doing mop up can be pretty dangerous too. And sticking your hands into the ground or inside a big tree to feel if it's burning. And it's kinda dirty a lot. And nothing like spending days digging down through 4-6 feet of ash n dirt chasing under ground fires. Many of which grow for years.
But I do think that our firefolks try extra hard to save someone's home. We built out of pocket and insurance didn't care to deal with folks who don't have a fire department. So kinda cost prohibitive if we wanted to feed n cloth our family.

Hey thanks firefolks for being there. Stay safe n we will keep you in our prayers

 

[Alaskajohn]

Yeppers doing mop up can be pretty dangerous too. And sticking your hands into the ground or inside a big tree to feel if it's burning. And it's kinda dirty a lot. And nothing like spending days digging down through 4-6 feet of ash n dirt chasing under ground fires. Many of which grow for years.
But I do think that our firefolks try extra hard to save someone's home. We built out of pocket and insurance didn't care to deal with folks who don't have a fire department. So kinda cost prohibitive if we wanted to feed n cloth our family.

Hey thanks firefolks for being there. Stay safe n we will keep you in our prayers

I think I have called every insurance carrier licensed to do business in Alaska and I have not found a carrier willing to insure mine. When they hear it is outside of the response radius of any fire department and that it is inaccessible to fire department rigs for most of the year they all say no. This is why I spend so much area clearing brush and removing deadfalls out to a mile from my property, making firebreaks, having a well maintained/cleared home ignition zone, among other things.

 

[Aerindel]

I also, do not have insurance. I will have to stand and fight to my last breath when the fire comes. Its a great motivator to prep, knowing what you will face and the consequences of falling short.

 

[Rebecca]

It's been an interesting discussion to read, and I am very late to the party for the fire part of it.
My place is not insured. We are in the response area of a fire department. Being that I am an active member of that department I am intimately aware of how long it would take them to get here. The answer being too long for many scenarios.

The type of forest fire being discussed most and described by Aklogcabin and shown in a picture posted by Aerindel, likes to jump, it likes to put down spot fires so far ahead of it, it's hard to imagine. I'm talking 10km or more. Those embers flying on the wind can burn down your home in no time at all, even without a singe tree within a mile of your house.

So my personal opinion, and only mine. Clearing is good. Making everything in that cleared area green is better. Want a garden? Make it as non flammable as possible. Fixing your house to make it as fireproof as possible is best. And that can be an expensive endeavor. So it depends on how dedicated you are. How's your water availability? What's your roof made of? Whats your siding made of? Are your gutters clear? Is an ember getting under your deck? Down your chimney? Under the eves? Do you have a pretty picket fence that will ignite and lead the fire right up to your wall? Where is your firewood pile?

I can go on and on and bore everyone to death. My fire plan is some what of a hybrid between Aerindel and Alaskajohn's. But I have different trees etc

 

[Aerindel]

Part of my perspective comes from also being a structural firefighter, where the only reason a house ever burns down on us is if we either get there too late, or run out of water. With bunker gear, SCBAs and a charged line, you can walk right into an inferno and put it out.

EVERY house I've watched burn to the foundation over the last fifteen years, I could have saved singlehandedly, If I had been there with water and my gear a half an hour earlier.

But you HAVE to have that water and that gear and you have to be there. No passive defense can withstand a determined enemy.

Like almost everything we talk about in prepping, its not that there aren't ways to deal with a threat. We have a military, we have police, firefighters, EMT's, we have the tools to deal with every disaster.

The problem is, all those agencies are only set up to deal with a handful of disasters at any one time. If even 1% of the houses in a given area are in danger of fire, that will overwhelm the local fire department by orders of magnitude.

Thats why the easiest way to think of prepping, is to become your own police force, your own firedepartment and yes, even your own military.

 

[SoJer]

..I've decided I need to make a new thread and dedicated post on this subject.

Ping me when you get that up and running, I've a Story that happened in our 'immediate AO' (a few weeks back, now..) with Pics that support Much of what was being discussed here, quite nicely..

jd

 

[BlacksideMountain]

It's been an interesting discussion to read, and I am very late to the party for the fire part of it.
My place is not insured. We are in the response area of a fire department. Being that I am an active member of that department I am intimately aware of how long it would take them to get here. The answer being too long for many scenarios.

The type of forest fire being discussed most and described by Aklogcabin and shown in a picture posted by Aerindel, likes to jump, it likes to put down spot fires so far ahead of it, it's hard to imagine. I'm talking 10km or more. Those embers flying on the wind can burn down your home in no time at all, even without a singe tree within a mile of your house.

So my personal opinion, and only mine. Clearing is good. Making everything in that cleared area green is better. Want a garden? Make it as non flammable as possible. Fixing your house to make it as fireproof as possible is best. And that can be an expensive endeavor. So it depends on how dedicated you are. How's your water availability? What's your roof made of? Whats your siding made of? Are your gutters clear? Is an ember getting under your deck? Down your chimney? Under the eves? Do you have a pretty picket fence that will ignite and lead the fire right up to your wall? Where is your firewood pile?

I can go on and on and bore everyone to death. My fire plan is some what of a hybrid between Aerindel and Alaskajohn's. But I have different trees etc

Also if you’re in an area that can support aspens. The university of Colorado did a study that found they work wonders as a fire break. Plant them around your property and keep the area clean and I think people will do alright.

 

[Rebecca]

Also if you’re in an area that can support aspens. The university of Colorado did a study that found they work wonders as a fire break. Plant them around your property and keep the area clean and I think people will do alright.

Yes indeed. And while aspens are very good, any deciduous hardwood is good including maples, ash, poplar and cherry. Which is where I have the advantage over some members who live in places I know to have predominantly firs and pines. Being mixed to more deciduous, I can simply go through my whole property and remove all the most flammable trees, leaving the hardwoods, and not make a major difference in the look of the place.
Wildland fire prevention here promotes the idea of a living fire barrier so to spreak, although this is usually suggested to small towns/communities to implement amongst the usual suggestions.

 

[Aerindel]

Conifers are also fire adapted. They only die in fires from 'sick' forests, forests that have been stoped from burning by humans and therefore have built up dead wood, duff, etc on the forest floor.

 

[Aklogcabin]

Wow. For folks to claim that they could put every house fire out single handedly. Just have to be there early. I find a bit hard to swallow. Based on my experience. As a forest fire fighter, although it was only for 4 months straight fighting different types of fires, mixed hardwoods to giant Sitka spruce. Watched as our community burned. And lots of can do alaskans around. But 50 mile an hour winds throwing fire balls 100s of feet. No power. DC-4s dropping retardant, helicopters dropping bucket loads on spot fires. Every fire truck in the state n every dozer, excavator n such hired on to build breaks. Propane tanks blowing up. Fuel tanks. And the fire burning underground making where you walk like walking on a minefield. I've fell up to my waist several times. Why I tie/tape my pants closed.
The fire that burned our home was sooooo hot that there wasn't even a scrap of wood. The glass in the windows melted. As did the aluminum engine blocks in our wheelers. I do not believe you could have even stood near the fire. Not being argumentative but I've seen n lived through sinarios that would make me feel differently. And certainly would not encourage anyone to try.
I probably would have been standing in front of our house thinking I was going to stop a fire that has burned tens of thousands of acres n hundreds of homes with fire fighters having to drop everything and retreat. But my beautiful wife was pretty worried. She was trying to get things together as we had 2 rigs n us 2. And the national guard n state troopers were evacuating the community. There was pepper spray sprayed in my buddies face while troopers tried to handcuff n forcefully remove us . Didn't go over very well when they found themselves outgunned.
And as written many fires travel underground. Doesn't matter what tree roots are burning. There are mostly green birch around our area. It all burned.
And again maybe I'm wound a bit tight when it comes to forest fires. The one that got us burned our home on my wife's birthday. I know that when she hears fire trucks and especially fireworks in dry conditions it gives her panic attacks. These fires can hurt you in many ways. Our home burned on a Tuesday. I snuck back through the fire lines on Thursday n dug a big hole. Buried the trash n started digging a new foundation.
And probably shouldn't take it personally when I hear folks say they could have saved it. No you could not have saved my home with every fire truck n every retardant dumping air plane n every person and equipment to build fire brakes available. In temperatures that would burn you to a crisp n evaporate water instantly.
Hey folks have fun with this I'm done. Hits to close to home

 

[Hardcalibres]

............. Not being argumentative but I've seen n lived through sinarios that would make me feel differently. And certainly would not encourage anyone to try.
................

I have been through fires as a defender and a fighter........and I would encourage people to try to defend their homes.....but with some conditions.

People who intend to defend their homes should:
1) Do what they can to make their home defensible - and that can mean some pretty extreme things....like building a home that is genuinely fire resistant - so that means fire resistant materials, materials that stay rigid when hot, control of radiant heat, etc, etc
2) Make their home surrounds fire resistant - so either (big) clear zones or fire retardant trees or some combination of both - so that may mean not living in places where you are limited in what you can clear......
3) Install fire fighting systems - like grid independent water (and I mean a lot of it), grid independent pumps (and I mean big ones and with redundant backup and good coverage all around the house and outbuildings, sprinklers to suppress ember attack and high pressure/flow hoses and hand pieces for delivering a lot of water during the peak of the fire
4) Learn how to use the fire fighting gear and practice that.
5) Develop the right mindset - a lot of those killed by forest fire, plan to stay and then panick and run at the last minute - that invokes the worst of both choices.
6) Having a fallback plan to hide in a survivable refuge if the battle goes ill.....
7) Develop a good relationship with the local fire fighters so they know you are going to defend, they respect your preparedness and they will back you up if you need it and they can do so.
8) Get good PPE to wear while you are fighting the fire and make sure there are at least two of you running hoses so you can douse each other to keep your temperature down.

The main reasons I would encourage people to defend is that, as Aerindel has said, most homes are defendable from some fires and most can be made defensible from most fires.

I have also seen how people who lose their homes in fire are effected by that long term. Many who are too old to rebuild their lives, suffer very poor quality of life and many die prematurely of something akin to a "broken heart".

Many think the avoidance of the immediate risk of death is priority number one - but experience shows us that there are many ways fire can kill people - and the long term survivability of people whose homes burn, is very poor.

 

[Aerindel]

I have also seen how people who lose their homes in fire are effected by that long term. Many who are too old to rebuild their lives, suffer very poor quality of life and many die prematurely of something akin to a "broken heart".

Indeed. Losing my home would be the end of life as I know it. I have prepared, mental, and technically to stay until I am down to my last gallon of water and last ten minutes of air. I do have a plan for escape, I do not give myself great odds for survival afterwards.

But again, anytime someone tells me what can't be down. I want to know what they had. How much water on hand, how much manpower, how many GPM they could pump, how many men working, how many bottles of air, how many gallons of gas, how long they spent preparing. Just saying 'The enemy was too strong to stand against" is only half the story. The other half is what you had on your side that ultimately failed.

The answer is never truly "nothing could have been done" the answer to every failure is "I didn't do enough for what came"

 

[Aerindel]

Right after I read this I had to head down for a training thing at the firehall and on the way I was listening the radio talking about a 500 page report on the navy ship that burned down last year and was once again reminded of how despite its problems, the military tends to view disaster like a do....a failure to study so it can be prevented again, not an act of god or nature. Spoiler alert, they blamed the loss of the ship not on the act of arson that started it, but on their own failure to have fire suppression systems in good order, and the crew properly trained to use them.

Perhaps it's because you can't buy insurance against losing a war. You just have to not lose the war. I really think insurance has warped the entire way our society thinks about risk management, in a bad way.

 

[SoJer]

...There is no electrical power for water pumps unless...

*Ahem*... Search Results | Forestry Suppliers, Inc. ..19 Pages of 'Get 'er Dun'..

Also, really nice 'eCatalog version', with everything a bit more organized.. Forestry Suppliers Catalogs Wildland Fire - Fire and Rescue 2021

..And, with pretty-decent capacity 'Entry Level Kits', at what is (Imo..) a Totally-doable Price: https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/products.php?mi=21871&itemnum=93109 ..You've got Something that will eclipse the performance of a 'garden hose'.. ..And if that's seen as "expensive", well.. I mean.. what is a typical 'Total Fire-loss Policy's Deductible - $500-1K?? Well, there ya go..

Fwiw..
jd