The Dangers of 'Moral Relativism'..

[SoJer]

OK, so, First - I'd like to keep this to more of a 'Pragmatic / Practical debate', than "religious", per-se, because I assert that this Topic, does, indeed, have 'implications for "Survivalists" beyond mere ideological sparring' (and I'll 'splain Why, later on..) First, here's a 'fulcrum' to kick this off:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/illi...s-after-school-satan-club-for-elementary-kids Yah... (and, just to 'get this out of the way', My .02 on that is the Same as those who came up with / host / push 'Drag Queen Story Hour' in Elementary Schools, as well: ..But, perhaps not for the Reasons those who might 'defend' this, might think...)

Ergo: I Do, in fact, support their "Right" to Believe thier assertion (that thier 'purpose' is Not to "convert" to satanism, but rather, to 'champion personal sovereignty'..) But the Problem I have is this:

a) They're Liars.. (later on they are Quoted as saying: "...The Satanic Temple describes itself as a “non-theistic religion that views Satan as a mythical figure representing individual freedom.”..blah, blah.." Right. So, in other words: Don't 'buy' this 'oppressive' idea that you have a Creator to-whom you should be held-accountable to for the way you 'behave' / treat Others in life, but rather, 'Be your Own God', and Decide for Yourself, what is "Right and Wrong" - Just like satan asserted / Did. Yah - that 'worked out Real well', didn't it?

Absent a 'Superior Moral Code' (superlative to what Humans could ever come up with, Especially with the Theory of Evolutions' tenet of 'Survival of the Fittest - Not the 'Morally Upright'..) this Entire 'train of ideology' ALWAYS goes 100% Off the Rails, and ends in Everyone devolving into 'Jeffrey Dahmers'..

(..and by That, I mean just, literally That: What he, himself said was (paraphrasing) 'If Evolution is True - and there Is No "God" to whom we need to answer, then it should be up To Me to decide what is 'right or wrong', based on what I Like or think is Right or feels 'Good' to Me..' - And he's Totally Correct.. (in the abstract..)

However, I, for one, have Never met a Single Individual - no matter How 'free thinking' / personal-Liberty-championing' they Are, that would, ie: Be 'OK' with someone Else coming over to Their home, and robbing / raping / pillaging / murdering, etc, at-will. When such-like 'asserters of personal sovereignty' have things / People They Value, threatened, well, then suddenly, 'Hey! No, that's "Wrong!"

..and, b) This 'Moral Relativism' (the "it's ALL Good" philosophy..) is a Mortal Coil.. ie: Homosexuality is a Civilization Ender, (Ergo: sorry SoyBois, drink All the Starcucks ya want, you'll Never carry / birth a Baby via yer BF, and neither will you '******' procreate without a Father in the mix..) not some 'path to Greater Enlightenment / Happiness' - Such-like 'Relativism' Always devolves into self-destructive Collapse - just like Jeffrey Dahmer - because That's Just Not How we were Designed to function / Be Happy..

Thus, why I assert that this 'Moral Relativism' is "Dangerous to Survivalism", because the 'it's All Good'ers will NEVER be Able to be 100% Trustworthy, in a 'MAG' or Group.. or in any 'Future Leadership', because they are Hopelessly Broken by the Devils ORIGINAL LIE (...just like the hawkers of this 'benign club for kids' ) and are like 'rudderless Ships, carried about by Winds, and ending up smashed upon unseen rocky-shoals'.

...And they will NEVER find satisfying 'Answers to Life'.. nor True Happiness.

Thoughts?

jd

 

[Alaskajohn]

Thoughts? Without bringing religion into it? My thoughts are I am glad I move out to my quiet corner of nowhere far away from there. I don’t want any part of that.

 

[Aerindel]

If I was drinking something I think I would be spitting it out over my keyboard in shock about now.

Sounds like they are just doing their own research. Personal choice right? I thought that was what everyone was into these days.

Thus, why I assert that this 'Moral Relativism' is "Dangerous to Survivalism", because the 'it's All Good'ers will NEVER be Able to be 100% Trustworthy, in a 'MAG' or Group.. or in any 'Future Leadership'

Indeed. No chance at all without an ironclad unifying code of behavior.

(..and by That, I mean just, literally That: What he, himself said was (paraphrasing) 'If Evolution is True - and there Is No "God" to whom we need to answer, then it should be up To Me to decide what is 'right or wrong', based on what I Like or think is Right or feels 'Good' to Me..' - And he's Totally Correct.. (in the abstract..)

I feel this is would be an incorrect way for anyone to use evolution. Evolution has extremely rigid rules, more so than most religions. If evolution is true, what is right or wrong is set in stone and could care less what you think is right or good or anything else. Most people choose religion over science because religion is FAR more forgiving when it comes to right or wrong than science is.

I think that was why religion has been so successful. Forgiveness, love and someone watching out for you as long as you try your best is a way easier path than "Survive and replicate or die forever"

are like 'rudderless Ships, carried about by Winds, and ending up smashed upon unseen rocky-shoals'.

Hmmm.....now.....what does that remind me of?

I feel like you are * * this close to coming around and seeing my point of view but there is some glass wall you just can't see.

 

[SoJer]

..Sounds like they are just doing their own research. Personal choice right? I thought that was what everyone was into these days.

See Post #1 This thread is Not (ultimately) "Just about" that Article / what they're 'Proposing', per-se.. (although I certainly find that Abhorrent, disingenuous, and Insane.. I Do believe that "the Devil" is, in fact, a Real Spirit Creature, far-from just some 'mythical construct', and Our (the Human Family) Chief Adversary, so.. Certainly no one to be 'apologists for' / fans-of..)

Again, sure - 'Freedom of Choice' and all, but.. What THAT 'choice' highlights, is the Danger of the 'Relativism' (again, enter Jeffrey Dahmer...) "It's ALL Good" - really Isn't.

I feel this is would be an incorrect way for anyone to use evolution.

Well, I was merely 'paraphrasing' Jeffrey Dahmer, himself, as that was His 'rationale' for what He did to his victims. So you'll have to take up that particular 'counterpoint with Him..

I think that was why religion has been so successful...

Could also just be Observation. (what 'Works' when we 'Follow the Drivers Manual' we were Given.. vs Not so much, when we Don't...)

..feel like you are * * this close to coming around and seeing my point of view but there is some glass wall you just can't see.

It's probably that there's just simply No Way I can 'abandon my Faith' - which is Based on what I See, in Creation, and Observe in Life - and embrace 'Evolution-based Relativisms'. I can 'see a point of view'.. But I still may never adopt it as 'Gospel'.

Interestingly, I likewise feel that If, say, we were on some 'Long, low-distraction Trip, with like Lots of time to talk / listen' (ie: Driving across Nebraska, or on Fire watch on some Tower somewhere, etc) I think you'd actually find my 'Reasons for having Faith in a Creator' as probably The Most Rational / 'Scientific' (but No - NOT implying 'Scientology', good gawd.. ) and Logic-based rationales you've Ever heard, but..

..First, I'd want to Understand Yours better, since one really can't claim to "understand" what they are unwilling to even Hear / Try-to understand.. If someone isn't 'able' to Listen - and Listen to Understand, not just 'hear' - Strong counterpoints to their "Beliefs", well.. Maybe they're not as 'secure in their Beliefs' as they'd thought, eh?

..but I Do draw the line at 'satan fanboi'ing.. Ya, no thanks, I've already 'researched' all I need to know, and he's a Real Horses ass..

jd

 

[Amish Heart]

Satan is darkness and death. I thought about all the other crap pushed in school, the brainwashing of acceptance of absolute craziness, like CRT, everybody's bi sexual, tolerating pedophiles, no morals, and I saw it put into action at our grandkids High School in Albuquerque. Complaining did no good. This seems like another add on to all that garbage. Going after children to make them morally dead seems to be the payback for moral parents. And the parents need to stand up and not allow this garbage being taught to their children. There are many parents that think it's ok to allow children, even elementary children to choose everything for themselves, and they do not actively teach morality, love, goodness, light to their children, which is what they should be teaching and showing them. Instead they allow extreme self indulgence and no morals because of course children are going to go after what feels good first. If Satan is presented as fun and powerful, and if it draws attention to the child by allowing them to tell others that he is a Satanist, then there will be a tremendous interest. School aged kids nowadays are really a "look at me" group. The High School the grands went to (3000 students) had 90 percent of them convinced that they were bi sexual or gay.

 

[Neb]

Reminds me of Pascal's wager

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pascals-wager
Not bringing in religion but...

The book of Judges documents a period of history that could be described as anarchy. Times when a supreme set of morals held sway are contrasted with when there were no standards.

See Judges 19

Ben

 

[Weedygarden]

If they can have a Satanic club, then they can have a Christian club. I had a Hispanic principal who was raised Catholic, in New Mexico. There is some cultural stuff that goes with that. It was not uncommon for us to hear about different religious groups and beliefs, such as Bahai. As my colleagues and I realized, the only way you could say, "Jesus Christ," would be if you were using his name in vain.

I can't say how glad I am to be retired from public schools. I cannot even imagine some of that b.s. that is being taught to children now. I believe there is a list of "wrongs" to those on that side of things, and the goal is to go after all of that and tick them off, one at a time: gay marriage, pedophilia, sexuality, etc. I don't think this is ever going to get better. It is only get worse. What are our worst nightmares? They are coming, imho!

 

[VThillman]

Well I think . . .

. . . that this discussions gets buried in a List Of Particulars too easily.

. . . that the discussion needs to set Religion aside for awhile, including Morals ( a subset of Religion), and examine Ethics without involving God.

 

[Tirediron]

I have come to realize that humans are their own worst enemy, no wonder why so many special forces display

, but to remain neutral, change god to creator???

 

[Spikedriver]

Well I think . . .

. . . that this discussions gets buried in a List Of Particulars too easily.

. . . that the discussion needs to set Religion aside for awhile, including Morals ( a subset of Religion), and examine Ethics without involving God.

A study in ethics is fascinating. However, I find that ethics without religion tends to be far too fluid to really matter in day to day life. Ethics without religion becomes situational. Even with religion it becomes situational far too often. And when ethics are situational, what, and who, can you really trust?

 

[SheepDog]

My ethics are basic: Trust, Respect and Love. If you respect others they will learn to respect you. Once respect is established then trust is easy. Trust and respect turns into love - The kind of love that you have for a close friend or comrade in arms.

 

[VThillman]

A study in ethics is fascinating. However, I find that ethics without religion tends to be far too fluid to really matter in day to day life. Ethics without religion becomes situational. Even with religion it becomes situational far too often. And when ethics are situational, what, and who, can you really trust?

Spike,one of us - probably me - is misregarding (not a 'real' word) Ethics. In my regard, ethics is not 'fluid'. Government, and Business, and War can and do distort and 'break the code' in an ethical system, but the code is still there, even when it's bleeding.

My ethics are basic: Trust, Respect and Love. If you respect others they will learn to respect you. Once respect is established then trust is easy. Trust and respect turns into love - The kind of love that you have for a close friend or comrade in arms.

SD, Trust and Respect are definable results of mutual adherence to an ethical system. Love is more basic. One example: "He ain't heavy, he's my brother."

One of the limitations of written language is that it's really just words. Written language doesn't even have the information that aural and visual expression can convey. It can only string words together.

 

[Spikedriver]

@VThillman I suppose it might have been more accurate for me to say that people's application of ethics becomes fluid.

 

[VThillman]

@VThillman I suppose it might have been more accurate for me to say that people's application of ethics becomes fluid.

Yep, sure does.

 

[Rick]

The concept of Satan exists in all monotheistic religions.
It is always a evil operator.
So no amount of trying to explain away will change that.
getting highschoolers to admire/worship a figure of evil, even as a lark, no good can come from it.

So, I am pretty tolerant when it comes to religious matters and probably a lot less religious than most other members here but very much draw the line at a "Satan club"

 

[SheepDog]

I can respect someone or something completely foreign to me. I respect wolves because they live by certain patterns of behavior. They are predictable as long as you are aware of their patterns. With wolves it is instinct driven for survival. They can learn "trust" and can be trusted to live within their patterns. In turn they will "trust" other animals as long as the same behaviors are maintained.

 

[Aerindel]

It's probably that there's just simply No Way I can 'abandon my Faith' - which is Based on what I See, in Creation, and Observe in Life - and embrace 'Evolution-based Relativisms'. I can 'see a point of view'.. But I still may never adopt it as 'Gospel'.

I was, in fact...not talking about religion.....but a different....more current conflict...where I get a great deal of flack for taking a no compromise approach and not accepting any grey areas in the battle against evil.

As a scienetist, I will say that evolution is the opposite of 'relativist'. Anyone who thinks "Well, if there is no god, that means I can do whatever I want" does not understand evolution or science, either. In my book, religion is just a fluffy way for people trying to cop with the Iron Law that science is always attempting to define. Most religions are just a cop out for people too scared to accept the ultimate responsibility for their actions.

When it comes to moral relativism, I'm somewhere to the right of the Spanish Inquisition. For any question there is a Right answer, and a Wrong answer and there are no do-overs on the test...which is pass/fail.

I've actually been on a big Inquisition kick lately as part my research into how people handled plague and a reluctant population last time. Good stuff.

 

[Aerindel]

I will say this too on the religious front. Anything that a satanist tells you about satanism....won't be what a satanist actually believes. What everyone thinks about them....is what they want you to think about them. All the horns and darkness and pentagrams....is an elaborate (and hilarious, to them) disguise. A truer name for what they really are would be Prometheans.

 

[VThillman]

I will say this too on the religious front. Anything that a satanist tells you about satanism....won't be what a satanist actually believes. What everyone thinks about them....is what they want you to think about them. All the horns and darkness and pentagrams....is an elaborate (and hilarious, to them) disguise. A truer name for what they really are would be Prometheans.

OK Aerindel, I'll bite. What are Prometheans, really. All I know about the guy is that he is credited with giving humanity the secret of making fire - and something about a stone and a hill?

 

[elkhound]

I've actually been on a big Inquisition kick lately as part my research into how people handled plague and a reluctant population last time. Good stuff.

made posts here..i think..and other places after hearing phd guy talk about records during black plague. very few aristocrats died back then and it was because the retreated to their large country estates and stayed put till it was all over. guy asked how do we know this..because towns and cities and such continued to keep records updated even death records.very few aristocrats were recorded in death records.society kept rolling till it couldnt...they had to or else all would have died.crops planted and harvested on some levels..it did go on multiple years so they had to or starve for sure.

back in our ebola scare should woke people up to fact people are going to get out and about.the woman nurse in maine who refused to isolate after returning from ebola country in africa showed the mind set of average folks..even professional healthcare folks.she even defied judges orders in pure arse rebellion. if ebola gets here ever...then you see who's who and what's what on survival front...

instead of derailing this thread how about you start a black plague thread with info you have found out so far. be a good thread i think.

 

[Aerindel]

OK Aerindel, I'll bite. What are Prometheans, really. All I know about the guy is that he is credited with giving humanity the secret of making fire - and something about a stone and a hill?

As far back as we have any records, literally, to the very first appearance of writing, we see the same themes repeated over and over again in mythology, everywhere around the world. Old gods, getting new names, and new stories that fit them into whatever the current popular belief system is at the time. The names change, their form changes, and sometimes different gods are combined into one, or one god of a previous religion, becomes multiple gods in the next religion, representing the various aspects of the previous god.

One of these universal archetypes, is the trickster/rebel god, who is on the side of mankind (or sometimes creates mankind) against the other gods, and who is punished for that.

Enki is the oldest known...the oldest that CAN be known (but probably not actually the first) as this was the first such 'god' to show up in early Mesopotamian writing.

Sumerian myths are.....weird....and complicated by later standards, but the short story is that there was a pure world with no death, or violence or water the the gods lived in and by sleeping around, Enki created the rivers, and also screwed the pooch so to speak and brought chaos into the world at the same time he brought water and fertility to the land.

Sometime later (in the myth) there was a civil war among the Sumerian gods and as a result, Enki is told to create mankind, from blood and clay, in the images of the gods.

At first humans live in a state of perfect peace, and all speak one language, but for reasons I've never understood, he then gave them the wisdom of Eridu (the chief god in this pantheon) and broke language into parts so that no man could talk to another. Yes...if this sounds familar its because its the tower of babel story....thousands of years earlier.

He also protects mankind when the other gods cause a great flood.


This same basic story gets told again and again.

Other names for this figure and this story:

Loki and Thor

Raven and Coyote (american indian trickers gods who in various stories stole the Sun from the gods and brought it to earth among other things)

Anansi (An african spider god, their version of Coyote)

Maui (polynisian)

Azazel, an old hebrew fallen angle, who takes the form of a goat. In the dead seas scrolls, he is the one who taught humans blacksmithing, warfare and how to apply makeup....and was chained to a rock to suffer in darkness as a punishment.

And countless others. There are probably hundreds of names and versions of what is essentially the same story.

And of course, in greek mythology, we have Prometheus, who stole fire from Zeus and gave it to humans, and was punished by being chained to a rock and having his liver eaten for all eternity by eagles.

I could go on and on.....I have no idea how many books have been written showing how religon takes the same story and repeats it over and over again with small changes and different names.

But, with that groundwork established...

Lets take Lucifer, literally, bringer of light.

And Satan, from the Arabic, Shaitan, the origin of the word Satan, which literally means 'Adversary'


It can be said that old 'gods' never die....they just get new names.

One way to look at religion, is as a story. Depending on what you believe, its either a myth, or a history, but either way, every religion takes the form of a Story, a series of events playing out over time, which tells what happened, and usually some part of what is going to happen.

In all of these stories....you have a figure who takes an idyllic, stable, but boring, garden of eden type place, and disrupts it, by bringing fire, light, knowledge, and sex to to it. The antagonist of the story, from the point of view the powers that be in that world...but also the one for whom without, there would be no story.

Take Satan out of the bible and you get: "And Adam and Eve where the only two people in the garden and they lived there happily ever after in total blissful ignorance, the end"

In its origin story, Judaism needed Satan to even have a story, to even have a religion, (just as all the other religions before it needed their own version of The Fire Stealer)

Christianity, had the same issue...the Greatest Story Ever Told, needed an opposition force, as without Satan, you have no Jesus, you just have a carpenter. Without evil to tell your congregation to fight against, you have no congregation.

So just like a thousand times before Enki/Promethus/Coyote/Azazel.....survived the transition to a new mythology as Satan.


Now, where things get funky....is when you bring devil worship into it.

Christianity is a religion of Order and Obedience, which is rather different from most other religions that predated it. People would pray to Thor, or Odin, but they didn't bow down in subservience to them. They may honor Zeus, and fear him...but they didn't dedicate their life to doing only his will.

Christianity, as a modern, formalized religion, demanded total obedience. Freedom is given only as a temptation...you are not actually supposed to chose it, your just given free will so when you make the choice NOT TO exercise it, you are all the better person for it. It is never called a virtue (nor is knowledge, technology, etc, all things associated with the Promethean figure)

Since was no real place for a 'Thief of fire, technology, etc' god in this story as it would undermine the core principle of Christian obedience and Order, it would seem to be the end of Prometheus's story.

But, Christianity had an enemy, Paganism, which was very popular, which had many 'Devils', demons, spirits, etc in it. And which I think we have to agree, sounds a lot more fun in principle than Christianity.

So, what is already a very long story....shortened....The Promethean story, the tale as old as history....was rolled into Pagan devil worship and survived as Satanism. Old gods, getting new names.

Now, make no mistake, Pagan devil worship still exists, and some of them may call themselves Satanists because its fun and they think its scares Christians, but real Satanists are not devil worshipers....but followers of an ancient ideal of 'fire stolen from the gods' and do not see themselves as Evil, but as Keepers of the flame of knowledge, no matter the fact that knowledge often leads to violence and strife.

 

[Neb]

As far back as we have any records, literally, to the very first appearance of writing, we see the same themes repeated over and over again in mythology, everywhere around the world. Old gods, getting new names, and new stories that fit them into whatever the current popular belief system is at the time. The names change, their form changes, and sometimes different gods are combined into one, or one god of a previous religion, becomes multiple gods in the next religion, representing the various aspects of the previous god.

One of these universal archetypes, is the trickster/rebel god, who is on the side of mankind (or sometimes creates mankind) against the other gods, and who is punished for that.

Enki is the oldest known...the oldest that CAN be known (but probably not actually the first) as this was the first such 'god' to show up in early Mesopotamian writing.

Sumerian myths are.....weird....and complicated by later standards, but the short story is that there was a pure world with no death, or violence or water the the gods lived in and by sleeping around, Enki created the rivers, and also screwed the pooch so to speak and brought chaos into the world at the same time he brought water and fertility to the land.

Sometime later (in the myth) there was a civil war among the Sumerian gods and as a result, Enki is told to create mankind, from blood and clay, in the images of the gods.

At first humans live in a state of perfect peace, and all speak one language, but for reasons I've never understood, he then gave them the wisdom of Eridu (the chief god in this pantheon) and broke language into parts so that no man could talk to another. Yes...if this sounds familar its because its the tower of babel story....thousands of years earlier.

He also protects mankind when the other gods cause a great flood.


This same basic story gets told again and again.

Other names for this figure and this story:

Loki and Thor

Raven and Coyote (american indian trickers gods who in various stories stole the Sun from the gods and brought it to earth among other things)

Anansi (An african spider god, their version of Coyote)

Maui (polynisian)

Azazel, an old hebrew fallen angle, who takes the form of a goat. In the dead seas scrolls, he is the one who taught humans blacksmithing, warfare and how to apply makeup....and was chained to a rock to suffer in darkness as a punishment.

And countless others. There are probably hundreds of names and versions of what is essentially the same story.

And of course, in greek mythology, we have Prometheus, who stole fire from Zeus and gave it to humans, and was punished by being chained to a rock and having his liver eaten for all eternity by eagles.

I could go on and on.....I have no idea how many books have been written showing how religon takes the same story and repeats it over and over again with small changes and different names.

But, with that groundwork established...

Lets take Lucifer, literally, bringer of light.

And Satan, from the Arabic, Shaitan, the origin of the word Satan, which literally means 'Adversary'


It can be said that old 'gods' never die....they just get new names.

One way to look at religion, is as a story. Depending on what you believe, its either a myth, or a history, but either way, every religion takes the form of a Story, a series of events playing out over time, which tells what happened, and usually some part of what is going to happen.

In all of these stories....you have a figure who takes an idyllic, stable, but boring, garden of eden type place, and disrupts it, by bringing fire, light, knowledge, and sex to to it. The antagonist of the story, from the point of view the powers that be in that world...but also the one for whom without, there would be no story.

Take Satan out of the bible and you get: "And Adam and Eve where the only two people in the garden and they lived there happily ever after in total blissful ignorance, the end"

In its origin story, Judaism needed Satan to even have a story, to even have a religion, (just as all the other religions before it needed their own version of The Fire Stealer)

Christianity, had the same issue...the Greatest Story Ever Told, needed an opposition force, as without Satan, you have no Jesus, you just have a carpenter. Without evil to tell your congregation to fight against, you have no congregation.

So just like a thousand times before Enki/Promethus/Coyote/Azazel.....survived the transition to a new mythology as Satan.


Now, where things get funky....is when you bring devil worship into it.

Christianity is a religion of Order and Obedience, which is rather different from most other religions that predated it. People would pray to Thor, or Odin, but they didn't bow down in subservience to them. They may honor Zeus, and fear him...but they didn't dedicate their life to doing only his will.

Christianity, as a modern, formalized religion, demanded total obedience. Freedom is given only as a temptation...you are not actually supposed to chose it, your just given free will so when you make the choice NOT TO exercise it, you are all the better person for it. It is never called a virtue (nor is knowledge, technology, etc, all things associated with the Promethean figure)

Since was no real place for a 'Thief of fire, technology, etc' god in this story as it would undermine the core principle of Christian obedience and Order, it would seem to be the end of Prometheus's story.

But, Christianity had an enemy, Paganism, which was very popular, which had many 'Devils', demons, spirits, etc in it. And which I think we have to agree, sounds a lot more fun in principle than Christianity.

So, what is already a very long story....shortened....The Promethean story, the tale as old as history....was rolled into Pagan devil worship and survived as Satanism. Old gods, getting new names.

Now, make no mistake, Pagan devil worship still exists, and some of them may call themselves Satanists because its fun and they think its scares Christians, but real Satanists are not devil worshipers....but followers of an ancient ideal of 'fire stolen from the gods' and do not see themselves as Evil, but as Keepers of the flame of knowledge, no matter the fact that knowledge often leads to violence and strife.

Many good points.

History before written languages was word of mouth from one generation to another. Anyone that has played the "Telephone game" where people repeat the same story to others has seen how stories morph in the retelling.

I will leave it to the reader to choose which version they think is most correct but the common elements between them suggests a common source or event.

The Chinese word/character for a large boat or ark is composed of symbols that literally translate as "8 people in a boat" as in Noah his wife three sons and their wives. Accident? You decide.

But the book of Job is unique in that it (correct me if I am wrong!) was not written in Hebrew and Satan is described as one of the sons of God and on multiple occasions debated with God about the nature of Job's faith in God.

God allowed Satan to try Job's faith that God boasted about.

The bulk of that book is a very intense investigation of God's nature that ended when Job mistakenly assumed God made a mistake. That is when God entered the debate and settled the discussion.

The book closes with Job being restored 7 fold for his losses because of his faith and dedication to God.

I will omit how the New Testament echoes the theme of faith in The Prime mover over acts.

Are there analogous stories that speak to faith over works? Please share.

It is the concept of faith that sets the Judao-christian (sp? to lazy to figure out) philosophy apart from others.

What do yall think?

Ben

Ps1
I understand much of the modern model of Satan was influenced by Islam and their traditions as well as Dante's The Inferno.

PS2
God was rather clever when/where/how he devised a means where by the "wages of sin is death" could be be redeemed by one death in satisfaction for all via faith.

Nuff for now.

 

[SheepDog]

Angels were/are called adversaries by the Jews. Jews have no place in their religion that equates to eternal damnation (hell)
There is no totally evil spirit (devil) in the Jewish faith.

Back a few thousand years (5000 BCE) in the land of Sumer there was a title of a god and goddess. An (awn) was the god of the heavens and the title was also used for the sun and sky. Ki was the goddess of earth and the word was also used for features of the Earth. Before this time in Sumer there was a Creator God who had the title/name of Anki. It literally means "heaven and earth" but transliterated it becomes "All that Is". Creator and creation is one in the same. When Anki bacame An and Ki a new name came up. It was Nammu (nawm moo) which was the life giving "Sweet" (fresh) waters in the earth (subterranean) or transliterated "Life giving Energy of creation/creator.

 

[SoJer]

I was, in fact...not talking about religion.....but a different....more current conflict...where I get a great deal of flack for taking a no compromise approach ...

Ah, well.. If we're back on the 'Vax debate', I think - Otherwise - we're pretty close to being on the 'same page' in all this - Save-for that One 'choice of ammo'...

Anyone who thinks "Well, if there is no god, that means I can do whatever I want" does not understand evolution or science, either.... When it comes to moral relativism, I'm somewhere to the right of the Spanish Inquisition.

Fair enough, but that's Precisely the Point of my OP.. YOU take "evolution" as a more 'scientific-approach' to understanding Life, etc, whereas So many Others (like Dahmer..) take the 'there is no God, therefore, Hedonism..'..which (to a greater or lesser degree..) Always ends up 'devolving into Dahmerism'.. (and by that, I mean wanton "it's All Good", with No 'bottom'..)

It's such-like 'justifications' / rationalizations / 'relativisms' that Are responsible for the Current plague of 'What's Mine is Mine, but what's Yours is Mine, too' whitewashed as "Progressivism".. Up-to, and Including abhorrancies like 'Lowering the Age of Consent' / 'MAPs' ( ) / all this 'Gender fluidity' mental Illness, and Pushing Kids to become transsexuals - While they're still Children - because "gender dysphoria", etc..

..And All that is 'dangerous' (just-like - I believe - 'marginalizing' the Actual, evil-Entity of the Devil into just some 'construct' or 'fable', often leads to people ending up sex-slaves of Others, and/or getting 'sacrificed' in some way.. I mean, that Happens..) to 'Long-term-Stable rebuilding efforts', once This societal-paradigm collapses..

Anyway, it just seems like having a 'Well Defined Moral Code' is paramount to Any would-be-successful 'MAG' or 'Community' endeavour - Especially once the ROL is no longer 'baked into' Societal structure.

.02
jd

 

[Aerindel]

Fair enough, but that's Precisely the Point of my OP.. YOU take "evolution" as a more 'scientific-approach' to understanding Life, etc, whereas So many Others (like Dahmer..) take the 'there is no God, therefore, Hedonism..'..which (to a greater or lesser degree..) Always ends up 'devolving into Dahmerism'.. (and by that, I mean wanton "it's All Good", with No 'bottom'..)

Sure. Just don't blame evolution for that. A person can say there is no God....but evolution has morals baked right into its pie.

It is no accident, I believe, that what is considered 'moral' is also what is required for survival most of the time.

Going back to my previous post...Enki was a powerful 'god' thousands of years ago because his 'data', his story, conveyed a real survival advantage to worshipers of Enki. Just as the Christian story, has crafted the most powerful people on this world to date. This is real, wether a person 'believes' in the story or not, the 'data' of christianity has utility, just as a really useful data algorithm would in a company.

I also think it has a 'life' of its own, memetic theory if you will where a story can evolve and spread virally.

The famous Namshub of Enki would seem to be a story about fighting an informational virus by 'vaccinating' people so they cannot spread it from person to person.

But as for the topic, my point is that most of what Satanism really is...is the evolution of the old Promethus/Enki/Loki/Raven 'Steal the fire' Meme...an evolution to fit into, and carried and primarily SPREAD by Christianity. Philosophical Mitochondria if you will.

God was rather clever when/where/how he devised a means where by the "wages of sin is death" could be be redeemed by one death in satisfaction for all via faith.

Efficient too. You see history moving from having to kill ten thousand people and pile the foreskins up for your god...to one guy dies and forgives all people for all time who simply have faith. If you look at just those two types of religion from a evolutionary point of view, you don't need a clever god to see that one has a future, and the other did not.

 

[SoJer]

Sure. Just don't blame evolution for that..

Again - Was 'paraphrasing Dahmer' (not Me and His 'rationale' for His behaviours / choices, etc.. Which, ironically, aren't too terribly different from Other heinous-infamous, thruout History (and Yes - I would Include those who Claimed to "represent God", yet by their barbarous-Actions, belied that (ie: the 'witch hunters' / burners, and those who hacked-up & burned-alive those who's "crime" was simply trying to Read the Bible, etc.. etc)

I'm sure we could have some Very interesting discussions around a 'campfire' - Which would be The prime 'setting' for such ponderings.. In-part, because (to Me anyway..) Flame is the closest Thing we can 'Use' / sort of 'equate-to' what a "Spirit Creature" would be like - Just 'Pure Energy', and "tangibly-there" - yet Not really there..

jd

 

[UrbanHunter]

I personally think that this discussion revolves around people's belief that there should be no accountability, that they should be able to do what ever they want and there should be no judgement upon them.

The flaw in that thinking is, that when it is applied to everyone equally the very people who want no accountability, will demand justice (actually retribution) when they become the victim.

If it is okay to riot, pillage, and loot without prosecution. Then it should be okay for the ones being impacted by the rioters and looters to shoot those involved without fear of prosecution...

It is only personal self control and the belief in having to answer to a higher authority that allows societies to avoid total Chaos.

 

[SoJer]

I personally think that this discussion revolves around people's belief that there should be no accountability, that they should be able to do what ever they want and there should be no judgement upon them.

The flaw in that thinking is, that when it is applied to everyone equally the very people who want no accountability, will demand justice (actually retribution) when they become the victim.

If it is okay to riot, pillage, and loot without prosecution. Then it should be okay for the ones being impacted by the rioters and looters to shoot those involved without fear of prosecution...

It is only personal self control and the belief in having to answer to a higher authority that allows societies to avoid total Chaos.

'UH', you Nailed it. Precisely what I was wishing to 'distill' / highlight out of that Article ('primary focus' was not so much on "Satanism", but, again, the 'Moral Relativism' that - He (the 'Entity' of the devil) 'sold' to our First Parents.. and subsequently, the Entire Human Family..) ..and just Look how that's turned out..

Relative to 'how this relates to Actual Progress in Societies / Survivalism', well.. your Honor, I submit to the Court: Zommiefornia, Oregone, the 'Empire' State, Chiraq, and Brainwashington, District of Criminals.. The Prosecution rests its Case.

jd

 

[Canon29]

I wish I had been here and part of this community earlier to participate in this wonderful discussion. Im very impressed with all participants.

I know it's a bit of a taboo to reply to an old thread... but I lack the self control (and likely respect) to adhere to that decorum.

@Aerindel I love your internally consistent take on evolution, but I have a critique-
the concept that the need for cooperation overall as a moral construct in evolution that supercedes (though not totally replaces) the more basic darwinism of selection/survival of the fittest- falls very short as weapon technology becomes less and less stable or as we extrapolate the consequences of the human methodology of "fire" into infinity.

Honestly when we get to the cosmic scale, the concept of God/Satan may not be a consequence of evolution, but instead interference by entities who predate us or more likely exist outside of time yet have influence in our physical realm. Meaning all thats happened is we've stratified/morphed/evolved our conceptualization of these forces, but it doesn't necessarily explain their primacy in evolution or just reality or worst case our mind (maybe Jung was onto something idk)

---

As a limit case, if humanity does destroy itself with nukes per say- then the supercedence of cooperation and morality being baked strictly in as a survival mechanism to override baser fitness- fails pretty miserably... also if we all die or burn out our resources before space travel effectively turns us into an inter-galactic contagion (more on this scale later).

I kind of coined a term a few years ago- haven't heard or read anyone else using it but am on the lookout. I came up with it after reading the works of Ayn Rand.

I call it "the promethean fallacy"

You see, I'm also very aware of the story of the fire theif generally in history- in Rands work more briefly in the fountainhead the concept applies in the same mythological manner which your excellent list did in posts #21.

The reason I call it a fallacy as it assume the primacy of the need and benefit of fire in the first place. On a large timescale we as humans do not know the totality of the outcome of "playing with fire" as it were, and if the result is catastrophic... we've been duped by the trickster eh?

If humanity rapes the resources from the planet and we take to the stars with the same degree of unsustainable policy- regardless of the degree of infinitive of space or places within space that have resources that we can format to meet our needs- we ultimately function as a plague.

On the scale of infinity, there are several potential outcomes of how that is received by the rest of the universe depending on what kind of intelligence we do or do not encounter.

1. We outstrip our resources at whatever scale and starve. (Resource limitation)

2. We meet a superior intelligence who destroys us (selection) or say morally quarantines us leaving us to the result of the former #1.

3. We destroy the intelligence and go back to #1/#2.

I suppose I just don't see fire as "infinitely" sustainable, given what we know about the universe- not the mention the theoretical potential for an eventually heat death as it were.

The religious perspective is that we are somewhat quarantined already until we pass muster.

In order for something to be a fallacy, there must be a fault in the reasoning and that is this. The potential for an alternative.

leaving religious thought out of it we could

1. Discover the key to perpetual motion or some other "infinitely" sustainable solution such as total final conversion of energy back to bse material "infinite recycling" which seems plausible due to 1st thermodynamic law.

2. Figure out how to limit humanity to the scale of perfect resource efficiency and our expansion and become a balancing force that improves finite longevity

3. Any other solution (good or bad, fire or water) beyond our current comprehesional ability up to and including a dimensional level.

---

The promethean fallacy occurs when one assume what is, is all that is. Or that what's assumed is correct, such as the inherent goodness and outcomes of current knowledge.

The fire-theif can be a good or a bad guy depending on perspective or timescale. To assume he is one or the other without personally being omniscient is fallacious in nature.

Of course none of this comes close to defining any inherent meaning, only possible process.

On a more practical level, what I see occurring in the real world politically concerning policies resolving around reaource sustainability is fundamentally evil, and serves to consolidate power and limit the ultimate ethic of free-will. I also tend to find that ideologically those who limit free will tend to be anti-god and for a mind to thrive and flourish ones individual identity must be allowed to freely vascilate.

Ergo, the fact that the universe has identity suggests the existence of free-will, God/superior intelligence, objective morality/truth and of course calls into question the motive/benefits of the fire-theif. In that strain, it's no wonder why the usual perception is negative.

This is a bit rough and I'm getting ready for an early hunt- so forgive me for not taking more time to make sure I'm articulating this effectively.

.02

 

[OldSchool]

From the opening post:
“Thoughts? "

Ergo: I’m gonna have to read more and give it some thought.


I joke with the off hand smiles, skimming over this, it’s a good thread. Wish I had more time….