Russia Versus The Ukraine

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NATO Chief Admits: "War Didn't Start In February Last Year, The War Started In 2014".

"The other thing I will say is that the war didn't start in February last year. The war started in 2014. And since 2014, NATO Allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment, so the Ukrainian Armed Forces were much stronger in 2022, than they were in 2020, and 2014. And of course, that made a huge difference when President Putin decided to attack Ukraine," Stoltenberg said".
 
bigpaul said:
The thing that most people havent taken into account is that if Putin is allowed to win in Ukraine, he wont stop there, he will move on to other countries, Moldova and Poland have already been threatened (along with Washington, London and Berlin) and there will be others if he isnt stopped, pretty soon we would be in 1939 territory again with the whole of Europe in flames if not the whole world.
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This is complete hogwash. Putin has never shown any aspirations for expanding into these areas. Please stop the pro-Western talking points and propaganda.

Putin has been clear and level headed. He's focused on Ukraine which has been a Russian state longer than it hasn't in modern history. Further, it's one where the west keeps putting bio-labs and weaponry and enticing violations of Russian sovereignty, and killing Russians. SINCE AT LEAST 2014.

Russia is doing there, exactly what the US would do here if it was Arizona, or Mexico, or Cuba. They are unwilling to take such risks right on their doorstep, and I cannot fault them.
 
not hogwash at all, the Russians have already stated that is their intention should they win in Ukraine, so they must NOT be allowed to win, if they invade just one Nato member country its WW3.
there seems to be a lot of Putin apologists on these pages. Putin agreed where Ukraine's borders were in 1991 then invaded Crimea in 2014 when the West did nothing, that bolstered his opinion that the West is a pushover, the result is the invasion last year.
the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to him or he will just continue to bully others.
 
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bigpaul said:
the Russians have already stated that is their intention should they win in Ukraine,
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Demonstrably false. Ukraine is being invaded precisely because it is NOT a NATO nation and as a pre-emptive Russia defense of its own borders after decades of NATO/US broken promises to not make hostile moves toward Russia, promises made in the 1990s and broken ever since. This is a PREEMPTIVE DEFENSIVE POSTURE by Russia.

The US did nearly the same thing in Cuba with the Russians. The US threatened war when discovering threatening encroachment. Had the Russians not backed down, we'd have viewed their posturing on our figurative border as a threat. This is not a hard historically factual analogy to understand.

The US has "pre-emptively" invaded many nations, to include N. Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq as "pre-emptive defensive" moves. Again, this too is not a difficult analogy to grasp. Super-powers often take "pre-emptive defensive" moves to include invading others when they feel threatened.

Of these 4 analogies, versus what Russia is doing, Russia is the MOST morally and legally correct. Cuba, N. Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq were never part of the USA, nor have large % of citizens who want to be in the USA. Unlike Ukraine, which was part of Russia more than it wasn't in the last hundred years. And a large % of Ukrainians are of Russian descent and want to be Russians.
bigpaul said:
there seems to be a lot of Putin apologists on these pages.
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False. Next, a hypothetical. If Russia were meddling in Mexico, or Arizona, you can bet the US would not tolerate it and we'd be at war to defend our security on our border. Why is Russia entitled to less sovereignty than the US? This isn't apologizing for Russia. It's trying to get Americans to wake up, think critically, to avert a nuclear war that we will LOSE.
bigpaul said:
Putin agreed where Ukraine's borders were in 1991 then invaded Crimea in 2014 when the West did nothing, that bolstered his opinion that the West is a pushover, the result is the invasion last year.
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Incorrect. The agreements in the 90s promised that NATO/US would not encroach. Guess what we have done since? We've added NATO members and placed nuclear weapons, military bases, and defensive weapons in several eastern European nations in violation of same, and direct threats to Russia. Again, the US would not tolerate such acts on our borders.

This week a NATO general has acknowledged the Ukraine war started in 2014. Ukraine has been killing Russians for nearly a decade. It was not started by Putin, FYI. After corrupt evil Ukraine's killing Russians for decade(s), the Minsk agreements attempted resolution of such fighting.

bigpaul said:
the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to him or he will just continue to bully others.
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This failed argument was the lie pushed on Americans since the 1950s with the "red scare" that created paranoia and ramped up the MIC arms race. It got us into a failed war in N. Korea (60,000 dead Americans), failed war in Vietnam (60,000 dead Americans), failed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for 20 years (5000 dead Americans). This nonsense ideology has put the US in a hot or cold war almost every day since the 1960s, killed millions of people around the globe, and cost trillions of US tax dollars.

And it's accomplished almost nothing positive, whereas it's created a big deep state government run by corrupt MIC and government officials and politicians who are oppressing Americans more daily.

You claim to be a "doomsday" prepper. Well, I hate to break it to you but the biggest threat and causes of "doomsday" are caused by your viewpoints. Our biggest threats are economics, corrupt deep state government with too much power, and war with superpowers.
Your views have caused the bulk of $33 trillion in debt and endless needless wars - this time with superpower(s) that can strike Americans on US soil.

The world is far safer if the west backs out of Russian affairs, Russia reclaims Ukraine, and is a safe stable trade partner with the west as it has been. Look at the early 2000s. Russia was a strong trade partner with good relations - providing energy, food, ammunition, etc. to the west. Now, we're on the brink of nuclear war, closer than any time in history.

Are you willing to trade Houston for St. Petersberg? San Diego for Kazan? Hundreds of thousands of American GIs for Ukraine? Because that's where this is headed.
 
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Who controls Ukraine is irrelevant to the Average American or European. Most Americans can still probably not find it on a map.

What is relevant, however, is nuclear war or widespread conventional war that is unwinnable. It will take years, perhaps decades. It will kill a generation of men. Destroy regions, worse than WWI or WWII with our very effective intercontinental weaponry, sophisticated electronic grid warfare, biohazards, etc.

Are you paying any attention to how fragile the US infrastructure is? Now imagine a dedicated superpower is actively trying to disable our infrastructure. It would not be difficult, and it would kill millions.

The west is obviously using Ukrainians as a pawn to suffer and die to try to bleed Russia, but it's a huge gamble unlikely to succeed and pushes to the brink of events that might escalate out of control.

This nonsense interference in an irrelevant Ukraine (which was a very corrupt nation, FYI), threatens every American and European as I type this. Russia has the technological capabilities of hitting any city with city-ending weapons within 15 minutes. Our so-called air-defenses are incapable of stopping it. At best we can retaliate and all suffer and die.

How can level headed "preppers" be in support of this nonsense is bewildering to me.
 
Nato didnt invade Ukraine, Russia did, that is an act of total Aggression.
Ukraine isnt even a Nato country so that argument is invalid.
there is only one person at fault here and that is Putin.
hopefully with hindsight, all this will end up as just some "local difficulty" and wont affect either your or my country but we will have to wait and see.
 
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Award of a fallen Ukrainian SS soldier which was found

uks.jpg

and no, it is not a farce, various Ukrainian units have such SS skulls, runes or any batch of SS units sewn on their military uniforms.
The West promotes in Ukraine active Nazi program, in Europe itself you go as a civilian for the public wearing of such crap before the court, in any European army you are directly excluded from service if such a thing appears, but in Ukraine it is still promoted.
According to various reports, Polish mercenaries and the Ukrainian army are currently shooting each other down at the front, the Polish mercenaries act as a spear unit and execute Ukrainian military personnel when they flee from the Russians.
The Polish government does not deny that various Poles are playing war against the arch-enemy Russia again, I hope that some of these mercenaries fall into the hands of the Russians alive, then they can serve the rest of their rotten lives somewhere in Russia in a prison.
 
To me it isn't relevant whom the bad guy is . To me the only concern is prepping to confront a World War 3 and my tribe's survival . If an government force decides to attack my alamo , it is irrelevant which nationality they are Russian , Chinese , Ukrainian , North Korean , I don't give a rat's as- . I will try to shoot them all .
 
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poltiregist said:
To me it isn't relevant whom the bad guy is . To me the only concern is prepping to confront a World War 3 and my tribe's survival . If an government force decides to attack my alamo , it is irrelevant which nationality they are Russian , Chinese , Ukrainian , North Korean , I don't give a rat's as- . I will try to shoot them all .
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the way things are going its more likely to be your own woke govt than some Johnny Foreigner.
 
poltiregist said:
To me it isn't relevant whom the bad guy is . To me the only concern is prepping to confront a World War 3 and my tribe's survival . If an government force decides to attack my alamo , it is irrelevant which nationality they are Russian , Chinese , Ukrainian , North Korean , I don't give a rat's as- . I will try to shoot them all .
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Then the west may shall stop to send weapons and ammo to the Ukraine and start to talk about peace instead.
 
bigpaul said:
Nato didnt invade Ukraine, Russia did, that is an act of total Aggression.
Ukraine isnt even a Nato country so that argument is invalid.
there is only one person at fault here and that is Putin.
hopefully with hindsight, all this will end up as just some "local difficulty" and wont affect either your or my country but we will have to wait and see.
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So, you're putting on your boots, getting a plane ticket, and personally going to fight that monster, Putin, and put your life on the line this week. Right? Rrriiggghhhtttt??

No. The answer we all know is that all those who want Putin to pay, who think he's wrong, are cowering in their basements thousands of miles away. They will gladly mortgage our future to send missiles over there and let Ukrainian boys, as young as teenagers, go die in trenches.

The Russians have an approximately 5 to 1 military advantage over Ukraine, have production abilities, nearly endless military resources to throw at Ukraine. Russia sacrificed 27,000,000 people to defeat the Nazis. At the time the Nazis had lost to nobody, and were considered the world superpower. Much like Russia defeated the Nazis and pushed them all the way back to Germany, here Russia will ultimately prevail unless we start sending American and European men to die in those trenches. Then start trading American cities for Russian cities. American civilian aircraft, ships, etc. for Russians. Is that a good plan?

You seem to have a completely fundamental lack of understanding the 1) old history and AGREEMENTS the west made with Russia in the 90s, 2) modern history, and AGREEMENTS made, 3) current events in the fact that Russia is winning this conflict, 4) projecting who is going to likely win {Russia}, and 5) the costs and risks of Russia losing likely means widespread conventional war that will hit Americans hard economically and with the likelihood of endless massive attacks here, and the reality of a nuclear exchange.

What that means for you and me: Whatever city you live in, Russia can hit it in under 15 minutes and completely destroy it. London. Gone. Paris. Gone. Brussels. Gone. Detroit. Gone. They have city ending weaponry they can unleash. How long is Russia going to tolerate the west/US sending missiles, tanks, intelligence, etc. that is killing Russians and meddling in their affairs? I fully expect one day that Russia sends a message to the west and destroys a European city with a nuke. Is that a good outcome?

What prepper in his right mind is willing to tangle with Russia, the largest nuclear power with a significant military and ability to fight, over a irrelevant former USSR nation Ukraine??? I cannot grasp how foolish this mentality is, for a prepper no less?!

The best outcome here, is for the west to withdraw our military aid and allow this to be peaceably resolved which means Ukraine returns to being a Russian state, which is what many Ukrainians want. The world and region is much better off with lower risk of superpowers going to war and instead being good trade partners. The west/US has got to understand it is not our moral or financial obligation to be the world police.

100% of these deaths is because the west is propping up Ukraine as a proxy state to fight Russia. Had the west not done this, this would have been peaceably resolved a year ago without dead people on either side.

ETA: The west has committed acts of aggression for decades in that region. Including a terrorist attack on fellow NATO members and Russia by blowing up the very expensive Nordstream gas pipeline that delivered energy to NATO members. And likely responsible for blowing up a bridge in Crimea that also killed innocent people. The US has "invaded" a lot of nations in my lifetime, as well. So let's step off this "moral police" high horse to evaluate the reality on the ground and our future existence.
 
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For me, Russia is the villain. They invaded an independent nation. Yes, logistic do win wars and I don't know if the Ukraine has enough manpower to win. Yes. Russian will sacrifice as many troops as available, without regards to their losses. Even if Russian does manage to defeat the Ukrainians, they will be stuck in a never ending guerrilla war. This will prove to be a lose-lose deal for Russia.
 
For me at this point I'm on Russias side. All of the news we get is very biased. I'd like to hear from both sides and I'll make my own decision. It seems that everyone wants war with Russia. I haven't heard a single valid reason, to my satisfaction anyway, for the US to get involved and send billions of US taxpayers dollars to Ukraine. What is the American tax payer going to get out of it besides more debt? Are there plans for Ukraine to pay us back? Has everyone overlooked the fact that the US is $31,000,000,000,000 in debt? We're broke. When are we going to start demanding that our government quit spending, and keep out of other countries problems. I already know the answers, we'll keep spending and we'll keep getting involved in places that we have no business being. I'm sure that the American tax payer will pay to rebuild Ukraine, probably Turkey and Syria too.
 
"... __________ is the villain. They invaded an independent nation ________. ..... Even if __________ does manage to defeat the (Australian natives, Native Americans, N. Korean, Vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghan nationals...), they will be stuck in a never ending guerrilla war. This will prove to be a lose-lose deal for ________."

As it turns out, big nations have been invading small nations since the dawn of nations. Why is this analysis any different? Separate propaganda, from reality.

Arcticdude said:
For me at this point I'm on Russias side. All of the news we get is very biased. I'd like to hear from both sides and I'll make my own decision. It seems that everyone wants war with Russia. I haven't heard a single valid reason, to my satisfaction anyway, for the US to get involved and send billions of US taxpayers dollars to Ukraine. What is the American tax payer going to get out of it besides more debt? Are there plans for Ukraine to pay us back? Has everyone overlooked the fact that the US is $31,000,000,000,000 in debt? We're broke. When are we going to start demanding that our government quit spending, and keep out of other countries problems. I already know the answers, we'll keep spending and we'll keep getting involved in places that we have no business being. I'm sure that the American tax payer will pay to rebuild Ukraine, probably Turkey and Syria too.
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1000% agree.

When we solve our own domestic problems - our border, illegal drugs, education, violence, family relations, healthcare, etc. we can focus on fixing the borders and safety of other nations. Until then every dollar we spend should be directly benefiting Americans here. Not someone else somewhere else. In this case every dollar we spend brings us closer to nuclear or significant conventional war.

Americans need to immediately wake up. We are not the global morality police and defenders of everyone else. And when we interfere, we spend our own blood, lose a generation of men to war, and further push ourselves to bankruptcy.

We've lost how many tens of thousands of men to war in the last 5-7 decades? How many trillions of dollars? We have accomplished almost nothing for those sacrifices. And we have CREATED many really bad negative unforeseen unexpected consequences thru our global involvement in the affairs of other nations or invading other nations. Here's just a tip of the iceberg:

* Unsustainable national debt;
* 100,000 dead US GIs, probably millions seriously injured;
* Millions of innocent dead and displaced civilians globally;
* An insatiable Military Industrial Complex;
* Massive CIA, FBI, and deep state entities which are authorized to and routinely spy on Americans;
* Our own Deep State and government over-reach, thru agencies like the ATF, killing Americans over gun laws at Ruby Ridge and Waco. These thereby lead other Americans to become domestic attackers at Oklahoma. It's a very cause-effect situation rooted in government over-reach.
* Several lost wars which undermine our moral high ground and legitimacy;
* We actually created or funded some of our own enemies, like Saddam Hussein when supporting Iraq, the Mujahedeen & Taliban & Al Qaeda at various times when supporting various convenient destabilizing regional wars;
* President Kennedy assassination, quite likely linked to Deep State behaviors;
* In the aggregate, all of this causes deep permanent divisiveness in our nation. Look at how divided we are, as a country!

And many, many more examples.

The point is, the US government has demonstrated significant short sightedness, ineptitude, vile behavior, and corruption and Ukraine is no different. It's not our fight. It's not our business. We Americans should not be funding weapons in that region which attack and kill military members of a world nuclear superpower. Playing with fire here.
 
JimCosta said:
Poltiregist: How's your prepping coming?
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I won't bore you guys going down the list of preparations that are now in place at my retreat . I will say though , my newest project has me very busy . A very hard day was put in over the last two days , which resulted in I couldn't walk for a while due to cramped up leg muscles this evening . My newest project will take a about 3 weeks to complete , then I have a cinder block wall to finish laying for another house on our retreat . Really there is a lot more than that going on at the alamo and am expecting a very busy summer . We are expecting about 100 people to descend upon our grounds next fall for a wedding , -- I can say though if a Nuclear attack was conducted on the United States " tonight " I have upmost confidence in my tribe's survival . Now as Big Paul likes to predict the planet will be void of life , then that is a different matter , but as a prepper I prepare with the belief the planet will not be void of survivors and my tribe are preparing to be in the survivor group .
 
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poltiregist said:
Now as Big Paul likes to predict the planet will be void of life , then that is a different matter , but as a prepper I prepare with the belief the planet will not be void of survivors and my tribe are preparing to be in the survivor group .
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whilst America is itself a continent and has a large mass, the British Isles is nothing more than a large island or set of islands, and it wont take many missiles to bracket the whole country, in that case survival "may" not be an option, everywhere is covered and no where is safe.
if however only London and a couple of major cities are attacked then survival may be possible away from these areas, however my problem has never been the major target areas, but the "nuclear winter" caused by these explosions which the experts tell us may last anything up to 5 years, that is a conservative estimate it could last longer, nothing will grow without sunlight and all the soil will be polluted with radiation.
dying from radiation poisoning and starvation once one has used up all their stored food is not a nice way to go, I would rather go in a flash than suffer and die over many years in constant daily pain.
I will always want to survive no matter what occurs I just think an all out nuclear war-given all the nuclear weapons there are in the world now- is not one of these survivable events.
 
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Arcticdude said:
Some people have no problem spending other people's money. The US is broke. Most Americans are sick of sending billions of our tax dollars over to corrupt foreign lands that don't benefit us. If another country wants to bankrupt their own country to support Ukraine, go for it.
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Not only the US.
Whole Europe has the same problem.
Money for nothing...
 
Mountain Dragon said:
Then the west may shall stop to send weapons and ammo to the Ukraine and start to talk about peace instead.
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The Deep State and WEFers have a strangle hold on our country. Ukraine is their laundering ground for money, young girls and boys, organs and the DODs bioweapons…to be used against all of us! Until we either stop the money flow or take out numerous “right“ leaders there is no stopping WW3.
 
Mountain Dragon said:
Oh! Biden is visiting the colonies and his stepson in Kiew?
Guess he will promise another few billions of taxmoney...
Guess after this he will visit the other colonies named Germany, France and United Kingdom (or it's changed to Joedom in meantime?)
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pathetic remark.
the UK was the first to offer Ukraine support whilst Germany and France were still dithering.
 
Joe promises money to almost everyone, money that does not belong to him and that he actually does not own anymore when I look at the debt mountain of the USA.
Apparently Joe was with his Dracqueen friend today who always wears a stinky green army t-shirt even though he probably never did any military service.
Zelensky and Joe have one thing in common, both are screwing their people and both are destroying their nation because normal citizens are not worth anything to them.

Let Joe with Zelensky and his G7 friends continue self-congratulation and praise themselves to the skies, these traitors only serve the WEF and are a disgrace to any national economy.
 
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