Understanding Narcissism and Narcissists

[Weedygarden]

Trauma bonding

 

[Weedygarden]

 

[Weedygarden]

This was posted in a group for people who have narcissistic and abusive mothers, a group with 61,000 + members. There are a few groups for adult children of narcissists, and some of them have many more members.
Christmas is a difficult time for dysfunctional families and when narcissists do the cruelest of things to their scapegoats, usually their children.


"It’s that time of year again. The time of year I get upset but also laugh at the time I asked for a stethoscope for Christmas but got a literal CAN OF SOUP instead"

 

[Amish Heart]

A can of soup for a kid?
Wow.
I got mom a sweater this year. She won't admit she likes it, I got a size small and I'm sure it'll fit her. It's a pattern I know she loves, and it's a beautiful sweater, but she says it looks "wide". She wouldn't try it on. Ha. I told her if she decides she hates it, I'll take it back. My cousin (mom's niece) brought her a candy bouquet. Mom said she doesn't like the candy. Oh well. She didn't bring any of us anything, not even a card. That is typical.

 

[Weedygarden]

A can of soup for a kid?
Wow.
I got mom a sweater this year. She won't admit she likes it, I got a size small and I'm sure it'll fit her. It's a pattern I know she loves, and it's a beautiful sweater, but she says it looks "wide". She wouldn't try it on. Ha. I told her if she decides she hates it, I'll take it back. My cousin (mom's niece) brought her a candy bouquet. Mom said she doesn't like the candy. Oh well. She didn't bring any of us anything, not even a card. That is typical.

Yes, a can of soup for a kid. There are so many stories about what people got as kids that were horrible and innapropriate. My suggestion to this woman was to give her mother a can of soup every year for Christmas, forever. We know that narcs would not be happy taking what they give.
Narc mothers often give demanding lists, ask for and expect expensive gifts, or are in general never happy with what gifts they receive, while many of their scapegoats especially are given garbage gifts. I could go through the posts and make a list that is just shocking. Often the golden child is given so much, $100's or $1,000's worth of gifts, while scape goat gets a used necklace.

 

[Amish Heart]

Mom complained to a sister of mine that she hates everything she sends her, mostly shirts. She even told her she was going to give them all to me. Ha. Nope. The sweater I bought her wasn't cheap, and we had a bouquet of Christmas flowers delivered to her. Don't care if she likes them or not. I wanted to give them, don't care if she doesn't want to receive them. She gave little granddaughter an antique Barbie in the box last year and of course the box was tossed and it's been heavily played with. Actually her dementia is so bad, I do believe by next Christmas she'll be on the medical side of the assisted living, and won't be able to bring much. Her possessions are more important than people to her, and I don't want any of them, but I'll make my sisters come here and help me deal with them.

 

[Pearl]

I had an AMAZING mother (and father)! This thread makes me appreciate them SO MUCH more! They are both gone, but still loved! Hubby's mom may be a narc, I couldn't understand her before this thread! Thanks! Things like this need to be discussed!

 

[Weedygarden]

I had an AMAZING mother (and father)! This thread makes me appreciate them SO MUCH more! They are both gone, but still loved! Hubby's mom may be a narc, I couldn't understand her before this thread! Thanks! Things like this need to be discussed!

Narcissism is more common than any of us realize. Sooner or later we've all known at least one, and probably more. I only really learned about narcissism around 2005, but as soon as I learned about it, I knew that all of the therapy in the world that I could participate in wasn't going to cure anyone in my family. I read about the most horrific situations for many people in the narc groups. Since there really isn't a cure, the absolute best thing to do is to get away and stay away from narcs, even if they are your parents, siblings, spouses, unless you want to spend your life being abused verbally, emotionally, and/or physically.

 

[The Lazy L]

I was on a governing board with a narcissistic. Narc had the other Board members in submission. For 6 years narc tried all of their control tactics on me without success (I had been pre-warned by a former Board member). The narc finally threaten to resign and was shocked when we accepted their resignation. You see my father was stubborn and so was my mother, That means I have a double dose of stubbornness.

 

[user 55]

So I have a question or two.

Having second thoughts Weedy; are you willing to have a conversation via PM?

Some of my rants here seem to be more telling of the discussion here than I imagined.

 

[Weedygarden]

So I have a question or two.

Having second thoughts Weedy; are you willing to have a conversation via PM?

Some of my rants here seem to be more telling of the discussion here than I imagined.

I am willing to converse with you via PM.

 

[Weedygarden]

I was on a governing board with a narcissistic. Narc had the other Board members in submission. For 6 years narc tried all of their control tactics on me without success (I had been pre-warned by a former Board member). The narc finally threaten to resign and was shocked when we accepted their resignation. You see my father was stubborn and so was my mother, That means I have a double dose of stubbornness.

Narcs really like having power and control. A friend of mine has been on an HOA board with a narc in charge who has made everyone else miserable. Narc tried to not have an election when it was due, but just to keep being in charge. The current board stood up to her and she said, "I'll just quit then." Their response, "Okay."

While I am not someone to gang up and pick on someone, sometimes the best thing that can be done with a narc is for people to work together to accomplish what is needed. It takes at least one strong person who can take charge and get others to support their decisions against the narc. Just have to be careful that a narc is not replacing another narc!

 

[Amish Heart]

That's true! Don't replace one for another one.
I also think the best thing to do is to walk away. Chosing not to do that right now with mom, she's 89. I did leave home at 16, and for many, many years did not include her in my life. I don't think she noticed much, it's all about her. I think if you do decide to deal with a narc in your family, you need to keep them in a place in your head where they can't bug you too much. Set your limits. Never feel guilty. Even though mom has dementia going on, she still has awareness where she can be narc mean. And she knows how I react. I walk away and don't care. That may be true for many that grew up with a narc parent. I know I don't have any problem walking away when I don't like someone.

 

[Weedygarden]

There are so many amazing things written by victims of narcissists. This is long and I almost scrolled by, but this says a lot about how living with a narcissist can go on for years and takes people a while to figure it out, in spite of wanting it to work.
---------------------------
"At a mere twenty years old you donned your uniform and set out on your mission to bring peace and fairness to your new policing community. You had big dreams and an even bigger heart. You carried an inner wisdom, courage and maturity that was beyond your years.
It was never your dream to become a law enforcement officer, in fact it had never crossed your mind until one day you woke up and thought ‘I too can make a difference in this world’.
You couldn’t believe the level of dysfunction that encased every home. Children caught up in drug wars, alcohol fuelled rages splintering walls and hearts, the elderly and vulnerable secretly tricked by con artists who were hungry for their next fix. Women tortured, beaten black and blue, with their terrified children watching on, confused beyond measure, wondering why this so called ‘trusted person’ is physically hurting the most important person in the world, meanwhile, they had no strength or capacity to prevent it.
Children lost, terrified, hiding, and broken hearted. I held you all. I comforted your petrified body as it shook with fear. I desperately wanted it all to go away, to provide you with the safety and security you deserved. For a moment, as you snuggled into my warm safe chest, I gave you hope, and a soft place to land. A secure place away from the devastation and chaos that surrounded you.
Domestic violence was real. It was witnessed in approximately seventy percent of the underprivileged homes I policed around the clock. Rescuing the victims who had no other option than to make that desperate call, riddled with helplessness and paralysed by fear in a moment when death stared them in the face. I wanted so desperately to find shelter for each family, but my hands were tied. We were overwhelmed, fighting a very complicated system.
One day during a DV scene between a husband and wife in their 40’s I stood before this huge man and gave him a piece of my mind. Standing tall in my values and my zero tolerance on domestic abuse I firmly told him what was NOT acceptable. He replied ‘who are you to tell me what to do - you’re old enough to be daughter’. This ‘no nonsense’ young cop said ‘well if you’re old enough to be my father then start acting like a real man’. He went silent.
One day during the early hours I responded to a call to a women in distress. I entered the house but couldn’t find her. I began searching the vicinity of the property when eventually I found her lying in the gutter beaten and bloodied, screaming silent tears. In that moment I asked myself ‘how does a relationship get to this point? And how does one feel the need to keep returning’. As a young women I was baffled. Day after day my heart sank when these victims revoked their statements. I felt as helpless and confused as they did.
Fast forward twenty eight years, and that young cop who believed she had witnessed the worst of the worst, and on doing so had made a pact with the universe that there was no room for any kind of abuse in her life was now living a similar nightmare.
As a 27 year old when she met the person she believed was her ‘dream man’ she had just returned from travelling the world alone where she had found a new kind of strength, more wisdom and knowing. She also knew what to look out for (or so she believed), traits like her fathers signalled many red flags, so she knew what to avoid. She had an inner knowing that should any abusive, controlling, manipulative, uncaring person creep in, she would spot it a mile off. He would be wearing a blue beacon on his head, just like her old police car. This ex cop was highly attuned, wise, intuitive and strong.
So imagine my reaction when I woke up a year ago from a twenty year marriage coma, only to realise with an abrupt awareness that I had in fact been living a lie with a very clever, manipulative covert narcissist. Surely this was a nightmare? Surely this wasn’t happening in to me, in my home with my four sons? The home of a so called highly aware, smart, instinctual, evolved human (perhaps I didn’t really know myself like I thought).
Note *there is no berating myself for living with the wool pulled over my eyes. I am full of forgiveness*. This is more a message to others to show how easily we can live unconsciously.
I was told by two therapists that his behaviour was a carbon copy of a pure closeted narcissist, and the reason I was in denial was because he had done his job well, to the tenth degree, confusing and passively controlling me beyond measure. The penny dropped.
Okay, so let’s look his behaviour and perhaps we can understand why I couldn’t accept the truth for a very long time.
He was quiet, calm (sometimes lost his temper with the children), socially distant, not the typical egotistical ‘look at me’ kind of person. He seemed to listen, remained calm in conflict, allowed me to run the show (organising, planning, spending and generally running the house without much interjection or decision making from him). He would happily say ‘yes of course’ when I asked him to run errands or do tasks around the house and land. He didn’t control money, not did he complain when I bought things. He never once laid a finger on me or raised his voice. He was quite the opposite. I felt physically safe and secure (for many years), but did I?
Looking back, I spent a good ten years feeling emotionally and mentally unsafe, but I couldn’t make sense of my fear because it was being played out differently to the abuse I had witnessed as a young police officer, and by my father. Ten years into our marriage; after our third son arrived, he seemed to change. I started to feel uneasy, questioning some of his confusing behaviour. Things felt off and I was uneasy. I would constantly ask myself ‘why would he do that if he loved me the way he portrays’. I knew as the years passed by this was odd, unhealthy behaviour, but I didn’t know what I was looking for, so I muddled along.
I never saw emotional and coercive abuse delivered separately to verbal and physical violence. I hadn’t ever come across a victim who reported silent abuse by itself. Now I know why - where do you begin? And who will believe you? Does it mean that I myself had to wait until he hit me for it to sink in? As the years passed by and my fourth boy arrived, I waited forever two things…. 1) for him to change (like he promised) 2) For more proof that I needed to leave
I remember wishing I had a bruise, one that was visible enough to prove to the part of me that was in denial, but not serious enough to really hurt. When that happens I will know this to be true. But maybe it will never happen because he also knew that if he did lay a hand upon me, I would immediately end the relationship - period. I made that very clear from day one after growing up alongside verbal and physical abuse with my father as the perpetrator.
What would it take for me to recognise that this was a marriage of deception and destruction? What would it take for me to accept that I was being abused? If I had to sit and tell you what felt ‘off’ during my twenty year marriage I would be lost for words. I would sit in silence scratching my head with furrowed eyebrows. Where would I begin? What would it take for you to believe me? How could I convince another if I couldn’t convince myself?
I would begin to relay some scenarios that I felt were in-just, off and wrong, but very quickly you would see me stumbling for words, searching through the rubble for stories and situations that backed up my intuition. I would say things like ‘I couldn’t trust him, but there was no infidelity to support my gut feeling, just little childish lies that he kept excusing, undelivered promises and a distinct lack of integrity.
I would say…
* I couldn’t rely upon him
* I never believed his words
* I felt worthless around him
* I felt like I didn’t matter, like I was invisible
* He pretended he was interested in me but the blank the look in his eye told me differently
* His actions never matched his words
* His tone never seemed sincere
* He would silence me (regularly) leaving me wondering what I had done wrong, begging to be seen and heard
* He would withhold information so I had to beg and plead for answers
* He would make promises, but never fully deliver (either fully ignore me, say yes but not follow through, or start but then fail to finish)
* He would promise to take care of finances but never pay bills/hide mail, then say that I’m the one who’s terrible with money
* He would share my hopes and dreams but didn’t instigate any of them
* He would complain I some too much money on food, but when I asked for him to shop he would ignore me
* Never played with the boys or took them out
* Would walk around the garden with headphones on in his own secret world, away from his family
* Had a disregard for items. Allowed things to break, go rusty, left outside in the rain, devaluing decent items as if they meant nothing (that’s how he treated me in the end)
* He would speak my language further confusing me with the things I needed to hear
* He would find a way to turn things around so that I was to blame, felt guilty or ashamed
* After moments of conflict he would love bomb me with long texts (never in person) pleading for me to forgive him promising to change
* He would always sit in his victim hood asking for me to give him another chance because he was ‘useless, hopeless, a procrastinator, that he took me for granted, and that he didn’t deserve me’
* He would stand by whilst his narcissistic Mother whispered derogatory comments about me
* He would walk out of the door when I was sick even though I begged for him to stay and support me and the children

 

[Weedygarden]

* Accuse me of being bi-polar, crazy, ungrateful, entitled, controlling, angry, dissatisfied, a perfectionist, OCD, with father issues, sister issues, friend issues, that I lay down the law, I want everything my way, I’m never happy, that no one would ever want me because my expectations are too high, I have abandonment issues that ruined our marriage etc etc.

* Tell me to take control of running the house but complain when things didn’t go the way he wanted

* Got us into debt by telling lies, put his hand on his heart saying he would NEVER do it again, yet a year to the day he did the exact same thing. Somehow managed to blame me

* Silenced me, ignored me, and punished me by way of ghosting, failing to answer messages or missing out vital parts.

* Said I was boring (when I tried to mend our marriage) and that he wanted my voice out of his ear

* Ignored my boundaries and disrespected me (continually). Called me controlling when I tried to set healthy boundaries

* Denying words and phrases he had said. Even when I wrote things down he still found a way to deny the reality of it all, making me out to be the crazy and forgetful one.

The love bombing and his ability to play Jekyll and Hyde further confused me. How could someone in one breath gaslight, then the next talk lovingly without any apology or recognition. I would be literally speechless, but my forgiving nature always found a way to carry on regardless. Time and time again I told myself, had it not been for my four sons I would’ve left in a heartbeat.

In the abuser’s sick mind, when the victim sets boundaries, it’s testing serves as a punishment for standing up to the abuse, and also for going back to it. The more I realised the depths of my situation, and started to compassionately recognise it really wasn’t MY fault, the stronger and more determined I became. I started to develop wings. I could see the rainbow leading me from the abyss of suffering to the peak of the mountain top. I smelt the sweet smell of relief and freedom beckoned. I just needed to make a decision and stick to it. I lost count of how many times I threatened to leave, and never once did he beg me to stay. I was bowled over by his coldness, and his capacity to throw away everything we worked for. I would say ‘never once have you tried to fight for me’, looking back, his ego was above that.

The moment I realised I had a choice to leave was the day I will never forget. I was like a kid in a candy store wondering which new path (sweet) I should pick. I literally never gave myself that choice beforehand. Knowing that I didn’t have to spend the rest of my life shackled to this fake person was the day my wings took flight.

I started to enforce boundaries and stand up to the manipulation. What unfolded from thereon in, reinforced all of the literature that I had been reading. The devaluing escalated. The disregard skyrocketed, and the love bombing faded. I saw through the lies and he could no longer keep up the facade. He was losing his supply. Within six months I courageously left and never looked back (4/2021).

To all of you amazing people suffering at the hands of these silent assassins I feel for you. You are not crazy. You are not a control freak. You are not ungrateful or dissatisfied. You are a loveable human being who has fallen into this deadly trap because you have lost sight of your worth, and did so many years ago.

I believe that every moment we live is connected to other moments. Some moments we are living now, are connected to moments 20-30 years from now. Some moments are also connected to 20-30 years ago, and so on. One day you will understand why these moments are happening for your greater good. There are moments of closure, new beginnings, greater understanding of self and others, moments that have meaning and depth, and moments that have a sweet smell of relief.

Which moment are you choosing to live right now?"

 

[Weedygarden]

 

[Pearl]

I had an AMAZING mother (and father)! This thread makes me appreciate them SO MUCH more! They are both gone, but still loved! Hubby's mom may be a narc, I couldn't understand her before this thread! Thanks! Things like this need to be discussed!

Need to continue a moment!! Hub's mom never gave him, his brother or sister anything fun for Christmas, ALWAYS that year's school clothes. Had a few new things to start school and last year's clothes. Blamed the kids for ruining her life ( should not have gotten pregnant and then married because your family said you had to)! Blamed her husband for ruining her life (again, you were involved)! Everyone else is to blame, she is always the victim. Does this sound narcissistic??

 

[Weedygarden]

Need to continue a moment!! Hub's mom never gave him, his brother or sister anything fun for Christmas, ALWAYS that year's school clothes. Had a few new things to start school and last year's clothes. Blamed the kids for ruining her life ( should not have gotten pregnant and then married because your family said you had to)! Blamed her husband for ruining her life (again, you were involved)! Everyone else is to blame, she is always the victim. Does this sound narcissistic??

Yes! Narcs are always the victims. There are some really sad and pathetic people in this world, and sadly, many become horrible and nasty parents.

 

[Pearl]

Yes! Narcs are always the victims. There are some really sad and pathetic people in this world, and sadly, many become horrible and nasty parents.

My list could go on and on! 30years ago I thought "oh this poor soul, what a hard life." That quickly turned into "why don't you try being nice to people, your family!" I really didn't know what narcissism was! She was a very spoiled only child. She makes no bones about telling you this! Life was so good until this guy got her pregnant at 19! His fault even though they were dating for two years and she liked to be seen with the guy who had the cool cars! BIL says it was like she was babysitting someone else's kids instead of being a mom!

 

[Magus]

I'm an altruist most of the time, get me drinking tequila and beer shots and I'm a narcissist, in between times I'm a hermit with agoraphobia and schizophrenia with delusions of adequacy. Under achievers live longer.

 

[Tsrwivey]

I guess I haven’t had much experience with a narcissist. Maybe the VP of accounting at the bank I used to work in IT for. She despised my boss, also a VP but a very kind, helpful woman who simply ignored the attempts at sabotage. She was always trying to get people to say bad things about my boss and though she would try to get dirt out of me, I wasn’t really a target for her because I wasn’t her equal in title. She was always in their boss’s office gossiping!
My mom is selfish, very shortsighted and clueless about the effects her actions have on others but she doesn’t fit all the other descriptions.

 

[The Lazy L]

... Maybe the VP of accounting at the bank I used to work in IT for. She despised my boss, ...always trying to get people to say bad things about my boss ...

Some people take the easy path. Instead of improving themselves they try to drag others down to their level.

 

[Weedygarden]

I guess I haven’t had much experience with a narcissist. Maybe the VP of accounting at the bank I used to work in IT for. She despised my boss, also a VP but a very kind, helpful woman who simply ignored the attempts at sabotage. She was always trying to get people to say bad things about my boss and though she would try to get dirt out of me, I wasn’t really a target for her because I wasn’t her equal in title. She was always in their boss’s office gossiping!
My mom is selfish, very shortsighted and clueless about the effects her actions have on others but she doesn’t fit all the other descriptions.

Narcs want to be at the top, the bosses, and in charge. They have been known to take other people out in the process.
BTW, good to see you! I don't remember when you were last on.

 

[Pearl]

I have a question! Is narcissism a behavior problem or a mental illness?

 

[Magus]

Yes.

 

[Pearl]

Yes.

One you can change, one you can't! I think you are right my friend!!

 

[Amish Heart]

I don't think narcs can change

 

[Weedygarden]

I have a question! Is narcissism a behavior problem or a mental illness?

I believe that it is a form of mental illness that affects their behavior. People are institutionalized for Class A mental illnesses, but narcissism is considered a Class B mental illness, and narcs are not institutionalized. The interesting thing relative to this is that the VA keeps track of those who are narcs, of course, that are diagnosed as such. People who are arrested for sexual abuse, such as pedophiles, go through treatment, and in the process, are evaluated for narcissism. Most sex offenders are narcs.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320508

Cluster B personality disorders affect a person’s emotions and behaviors, leading to actions that others tend to consider dramatic, overly emotional, or erratic.
A personality disorder is a mental health condition that affects the ways that a person thinks, behaves, and relates to others.

These disorders can lead to significant distress and, in many cases, harmful coping strategies. People with cluster B disorders typically have trouble regulating their emotions and struggle to maintain relationships.

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) suggest that around 9.1%Trusted Source of people in the United States meet the criteria for a personality disorder.

There are four types of cluster B personality disorders, each with a different set of diagnostic criteria and treatments:

• antisocial personality disorder
• borderline personality disorder
• histrionic personality disorder
• narcissistic personality disorder

This article explores these types, including their symptoms and treatment options.

(more to the article)

 

[Pearl]

I don't think narcs can change

I don't mean to come off as critical of my MIL, not trying to be mean! I think if she has an illness she can't change! ??????

 

[Pearl]

I believe that it is a form of mental illness that affects their behavior. People are institutionalized for Class A mental illnesses, but narcissism is considered a Class B mental illness, and narcs are not institutionalized. The interesting thing relative to this is that the VA keeps track of those who are narcs, of course, that are diagnosed as such. People who are arrested for sexual abuse, such as pedophiles, go through treatment, and in the process, are evaluated for narcissism. Most sex offenders are narcs.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/320508

Cluster B personality disorders affect a person’s emotions and behaviors, leading to actions that others tend to consider dramatic, overly emotional, or erratic.
A personality disorder is a mental health condition that affects the ways that a person thinks, behaves, and relates to others.

These disorders can lead to significant distress and, in many cases, harmful coping strategies. People with cluster B disorders typically have trouble regulating their emotions and struggle to maintain relationships.

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) suggest that around 9.1%Trusted Source of people in the United States meet the criteria for a personality disorder.

There are four types of cluster B personality disorders, each with a different set of diagnostic criteria and treatments:

• antisocial personality disorder
• borderline personality disorder
• histrionic personality disorder
• narcissistic personality disorder

This article explores these types, including their symptoms and treatment options.

(more to the article)

Thank you!